Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers

Cruize · 01-09-2023, 08:32 AM

-Misses on Davenport, Turner, Penning and Ruiz has really hurt the team. A #1 has to have impact.
-They counted on Winston to progress and be dynamic. He just isn't.
-Dalton is a solid NFL backup. Not a starter on a non-playoff team.
-Thomas and Peat do not deserve their salaries. Take the cap hit and move on.
-Give Lutz some competition next camp.
Draft a QB and play him.
-Find a pending RB to pair with Kamara.
-At the very least shake up the offensive staff.

saintsfan1976 · 01-09-2023, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cruize

-Misses on Davenport, Turner, Penning and Ruiz has really hurt the team. A #1 has to have impact.
-They counted on Winston to progress and be dynamic. He just isn't.
-Dalton is a solid NFL backup. Not a starter on a non-playoff team.
-Thomas and Peat do not deserve their salaries. Take the cap hit and move on.
-Give Lutz some competition next camp.
Draft a QB and play him.
-Find a pending RB to pair with Kamara.
-At the very least shake up the offensive staff.

Penning, a "miss"???

Winston only needed to be the same, not better. Certainly not worse.

Agree on others

K Major · 01-09-2023, 10:17 AM

Congrats to Chris Olave.

1k season as a rookie.

BakoSaint · 01-09-2023, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Penning, a "miss"???

Winston only needed to be the same, not better. Certainly not worse.

Agree on others

It seems like about half of first rounders miss. Thats football. But that is why you dont trade two first rounders for one and draft anraw prospect like Davenport who had proven neither ability nor durability against high level competition.

Penning is not neccessarily a miss yet but injury in first year makes him more likely to end up a miss. But in another sense we paid a lot in future picks to trade for a second first rounder in 2022 to ‘win now’ and we definitely missed on ‘winning now’ with Penning contributing nothing ‘now.’ We would have been much better off to skip the trade with Philly, and throw in an extra 4th rounder or something to trade up for Olave from 18 instead of 16, and still have a 1st rounder in 2023 and a 2nd rounder in 2024.

I think it would be the right thing to move on from Kamara just Like Carolina moved on from McCaffery. By the team we are ready to compete for a ring not just a token playoff appearance he will be too old. Unfortunately the looming suspension clouds his value. It may be best to trade him at the deadline after his suspension. To prepare for that it would be best to avoid restructuring his contract in a way that makes the cap hit to trade prohibitive.

We also need to realize that almost winning our division may not be a plus. We were 7-10 in a historically weak division. This is worse than being 7-10 in a strong division, because divisions do not tend to stay historically weak 2 years in a row. We might have been 6-11 or something in a better division. The way things work our division will likely get harder next year. The Falcons and Panthers will have lots of cap space and draft picks. They will improve at QB. It will still likely be a weak division but history says it will get harder, which does not favor the two older teams with no cap space.

MatthewT · 01-09-2023, 10:59 AM

So far Penning is a miss at LT, his run blocking is excellent but he is struggling big time with pass blocking. If he doesn't improve real quick he will need to be moved to guard.

AsylumGuido · 01-10-2023, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

So far Penning is a miss at LT, his run blocking is excellent but he is struggling big time with pass blocking. If he doesn't improve real quick he will need to be moved to guard.

A miss? He hasn't even had an opportunity to play. How can he be a miss? He was injured in the preseason. This past game was his only start of the season. Before that he only saw 66 offensive snaps all season with most of those coming a sixth "eligible receiver" lineman.

MatthewT · 01-10-2023, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

A miss? He hasn't even had an opportunity to play. How can he be a miss? He was injured in the preseason. This past game was his only start of the season. Before that he only saw 66 offensive snaps all season with most of those coming a sixth "eligible receiver" lineman.

Before his injury in preseason, he did not effectively handle the pass rush, and keep in mind this was against reserves and guys who did not make final rosters. He hasn't shown in his limited action during the season that he is much better at it yet. During the Carolina game he got burned, it didn't happen more because Carolina wasn't all that aggressive and Dalton only threw 25 passes. With that said, he is a complete beast as a run blocker and looks to already be on an all pro level with that part of his game.

AsylumGuido · 01-10-2023, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

Before his injury in preseason, he did not effectively handle the pass rush, and keep in mind this was against reserves and guys who did not make final rosters. He hasn't shown in his limited action during the season that he is much better at it yet. During the Carolina game he got burned, it didn't happen more because Carolina wasn't all that aggressive and Dalton only threw 25 passes. With that said, he is a complete beast as a run blocker and looks to already be on an all pro level with that part of his game.

Once again, virtually all of his action during the season was in heavy sets (six man lines) on running situations. He was never in any standard pass protection assignments at all. As for preseason, it is nothing more than glorified practice sessions learning the "new to them" pass blocking schemes. Mistakes are to be expected.

I wouldn't expect a seasoned coaching professional to make ironclad evaluations from the sideline on a rookie's abilities based upon that tiny sample size, not to mention a fan sitting at home watching a handful of plays on his or her television set making the same attempt.

MatthewT · 01-10-2023, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Once again, virtually all of his action during the season was in heavy sets (six man lines) on running situations. He was never in any standard pass protection assignments at all. As for preseason, it is nothing more than glorified practice sessions learning the "new to them" pass blocking schemes. Mistakes are to be expected.

I wouldn't expect a seasoned coaching professional to make ironclad evaluations from the sideline on a rookie's abilities based upon that tiny sample size, not to mention a fan sitting at home watching a handful of plays on his or her television set making the same attempt.

I've shared my opinion a few times about him, nothing has changed so far. There is an expectation as a high round pick to be something more than what he has shown. He doesn't look quite as bad as Peat did when they drafted him to be a right tackle, but it's pretty close. Additionally, if you dig around at different scouting report sources, many had concerns about his pass blocking, it is seriously not me just watching this crap on TV.

TheOak · 01-10-2023, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

No offense but what are y’all expecting to see with “one more year” in Allen??

The man doesn’t have a clue as Head Coach.

Go back and watch the presser when he took took the position. He was asked something along the lines of how long has he waited or thought about being a head coach again.

He replied that he doesn't think about the future. This is why he will never be a successful head coach in the NFL.

What I am seeing is that there is a premise that he is either a new head coach or new to the organization. Typically people new to an organization take the first year to asses what they have before they start making changes which is why they get a second year to implement. Dennis Allen is not a new HC nor is he new to the Saints so he just pissed away his rebuild year.

01-09-2023, 08:32 AM	#21
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,467	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers -Misses on Davenport, Turner, Penning and Ruiz has really hurt the team. A #1 has to have impact. -They counted on Winston to progress and be dynamic. He just isn't. -Dalton is a solid NFL backup. Not a starter on a non-playoff team. -Thomas and Peat do not deserve their salaries. Take the cap hit and move on. -Give Lutz some competition next camp. Draft a QB and play him. -Find a pending RB to pair with Kamara. -At the very least shake up the offensive staff. neugey, SmashMouth and Rugby Saint II like this.
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,467

01-09-2023, 10:02 AM	#22
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 11,023 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Originally Posted by Cruize -Misses on Davenport, Turner, Penning and Ruiz has really hurt the team. A #1 has to have impact. -They counted on Winston to progress and be dynamic. He just isn't. -Dalton is a solid NFL backup. Not a starter on a non-playoff team. -Thomas and Peat do not deserve their salaries. Take the cap hit and move on. -Give Lutz some competition next camp. Draft a QB and play him. -Find a pending RB to pair with Kamara. -At the very least shake up the offensive staff. Penning, a "miss"??? Winston only needed to be the same, not better. Certainly not worse. Agree on others

01-09-2023, 10:17 AM	#23
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,831 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Congrats to Chris Olave. 1k season as a rookie. SaintFanQ, SmashMouth and cmike like this.

01-09-2023, 10:29 AM	#24
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,391	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Penning, a "miss"??? Winston only needed to be the same, not better. Certainly not worse. Agree on others It seems like about half of first rounders miss. Thats football. But that is why you dont trade two first rounders for one and draft anraw prospect like Davenport who had proven neither ability nor durability against high level competition. Penning is not neccessarily a miss yet but injury in first year makes him more likely to end up a miss. But in another sense we paid a lot in future picks to trade for a second first rounder in 2022 to ‘win now’ and we definitely missed on ‘winning now’ with Penning contributing nothing ‘now.’ We would have been much better off to skip the trade with Philly, and throw in an extra 4th rounder or something to trade up for Olave from 18 instead of 16, and still have a 1st rounder in 2023 and a 2nd rounder in 2024. I think it would be the right thing to move on from Kamara just Like Carolina moved on from McCaffery. By the team we are ready to compete for a ring not just a token playoff appearance he will be too old. Unfortunately the looming suspension clouds his value. It may be best to trade him at the deadline after his suspension. To prepare for that it would be best to avoid restructuring his contract in a way that makes the cap hit to trade prohibitive. We also need to realize that almost winning our division may not be a plus. We were 7-10 in a historically weak division. This is worse than being 7-10 in a strong division, because divisions do not tend to stay historically weak 2 years in a row. We might have been 6-11 or something in a better division. The way things work our division will likely get harder next year. The Falcons and Panthers will have lots of cap space and draft picks. They will improve at QB. It will still likely be a weak division but history says it will get harder, which does not favor the two older teams with no cap space.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,391

01-09-2023, 10:59 AM	#25
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers So far Penning is a miss at LT, his run blocking is excellent but he is struggling big time with pass blocking. If he doesn't improve real quick he will need to be moved to guard.

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01-10-2023, 10:31 AM	#26
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Originally Posted by MatthewT So far Penning is a miss at LT, his run blocking is excellent but he is struggling big time with pass blocking. If he doesn't improve real quick he will need to be moved to guard. A miss? He hasn't even had an opportunity to play. How can he be a miss? He was injured in the preseason. This past game was his only start of the season. Before that he only saw 66 offensive snaps all season with most of those coming a sixth "eligible receiver" lineman.

01-10-2023, 11:22 AM	#27
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Originally Posted by AsylumGuido A miss? He hasn't even had an opportunity to play. How can he be a miss? He was injured in the preseason. This past game was his only start of the season. Before that he only saw 66 offensive snaps all season with most of those coming a sixth "eligible receiver" lineman. Before his injury in preseason, he did not effectively handle the pass rush, and keep in mind this was against reserves and guys who did not make final rosters. He hasn't shown in his limited action during the season that he is much better at it yet. During the Carolina game he got burned, it didn't happen more because Carolina wasn't all that aggressive and Dalton only threw 25 passes. With that said, he is a complete beast as a run blocker and looks to already be on an all pro level with that part of his game.

01-10-2023, 11:35 AM	#28
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Originally Posted by MatthewT Before his injury in preseason, he did not effectively handle the pass rush, and keep in mind this was against reserves and guys who did not make final rosters. He hasn't shown in his limited action during the season that he is much better at it yet. During the Carolina game he got burned, it didn't happen more because Carolina wasn't all that aggressive and Dalton only threw 25 passes. With that said, he is a complete beast as a run blocker and looks to already be on an all pro level with that part of his game. Once again, virtually all of his action during the season was in heavy sets (six man lines) on running situations. He was never in any standard pass protection assignments at all. As for preseason, it is nothing more than glorified practice sessions learning the "new to them" pass blocking schemes. Mistakes are to be expected. I wouldn't expect a seasoned coaching professional to make ironclad evaluations from the sideline on a rookie's abilities based upon that tiny sample size, not to mention a fan sitting at home watching a handful of plays on his or her television set making the same attempt.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

01-10-2023, 12:10 PM	#29
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Once again, virtually all of his action during the season was in heavy sets (six man lines) on running situations. He was never in any standard pass protection assignments at all. As for preseason, it is nothing more than glorified practice sessions learning the "new to them" pass blocking schemes. Mistakes are to be expected. I wouldn't expect a seasoned coaching professional to make ironclad evaluations from the sideline on a rookie's abilities based upon that tiny sample size, not to mention a fan sitting at home watching a handful of plays on his or her television set making the same attempt. I've shared my opinion a few times about him, nothing has changed so far. There is an expectation as a high round pick to be something more than what he has shown. He doesn't look quite as bad as Peat did when they drafted him to be a right tackle, but it's pretty close. Additionally, if you dig around at different scouting report sources, many had concerns about his pass blocking, it is seriously not me just watching this crap on TV.

01-10-2023, 12:20 PM	#30
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Observations From the Saints' Loss to the Panthers Originally Posted by K Major No offense but what are y’all expecting to see with “one more year” in Allen?? The man doesn’t have a clue as Head Coach. Go back and watch the presser when he took took the position. He was asked something along the lines of how long has he waited or thought about being a head coach again. He replied that he doesn't think about the future. This is why he will never be a successful head coach in the NFL. What I am seeing is that there is a premise that he is either a new head coach or new to the organization. Typically people new to an organization take the first year to asses what they have before they start making changes which is why they get a second year to implement. Dennis Allen is not a new HC nor is he new to the Saints so he just pissed away his rebuild year. Sinner and K Major like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau