Pete Carmichael analytics show you something.

Sinner · 02-01-2024, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I believe it's pretty clear that she sees the Saints as far more than just a business. This is one of the reasons why she has mandated the Saints remaining in New Orleans even past her eventual passing. Personally I'll take that sort of guidance over a cutthroat bottom line leader any day. In my many years of working within organizations of all sorts I'd take the former over the latter every time. Times have changed and I understand the younger generations see things like this differently, but it is understandable that she feels the way she feels. If not ours Saints could very well have been elsewhere years ago.

It is abundantly clear now, that Gayle sees the Saints as far more (or less) than a progressive, WINNING FOOTBALL TEAM. it is also clear that there are fans who will buy the merch, go to the games, and feel really good about whatever it is that Gayle sees, and continues to put on the field for fans to see.

The rest of us came here to watch WINNING FOOTBALL, and it AINT happening.

K Major · 02-01-2024, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by iceshack149

Amongst many frustrations with the Saints organization the most annoying decision the team made was to keep Carmichael all season and not drop him midseason when everyone knew he wasn't the answer. We could have watched how Ronald Curry handled the offense after the bye week and the team would therefore make a more informed decision on Pete's replacement for the 2024 season.

There it ‘tis’.

Mentioned this numerous times last season.

Saints take a UGLY loss against a BACKUP QB (Dobbs). Mind you, we ONLY became COMPETITIVE once Winston came in

.

Subsequent BYE week, then get embarrassed AGAIN to another back up (Deridder) in Atlanta. 10 day rest & perform that poorly?

Stale & predictable play calling … Pete should have definitely been relieved of his duties as OC. As you mentioned, that would have been a PERFECT opportunity to see what Ronald could do on his own as signal caller.

Saints organization has become PASSIVE.

Beating the likes of Chicago, Giants, Panthers, etc was fools gold.

Yet we are here … again.

AsylumGuido · 02-01-2024, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by iceshack149

You're missing the point. Generally speaking, loyalty is an admirable quality. Blind loyalty is the sense of giving yourself entirely to someone without caring what he/she will do to your organization.
We all knew that Carmichael was in over his head but Loomis and Gayle Benson kept him anyway. They knew that he was a terrible OC but the team and it's fans be damned. That angered a lot of us for good reason.

I have come to the realization that some fans are much quicker to anger than others. I suppose their (Gayle's) loyalty is stronger for those they know and love than for the fear of any anger from random fans. Would you not agree that this is understandable?

Boston Saint · 02-01-2024, 11:59 AM

I probably won’t be able to think of a good way to phrase my thoughts without someone coming down on me, but I’ll give it a try.

I think an overlooked part of the “downfall” has been injury…especially to the QBs as a result of injuries and poor play by the Oline. The team finished well(top 10 I think) in scoring by the end of the year. IMO That’s partially because Carr finally got relatively healthy by the last 5 or so games of the season. He seemed to finally have developed a good chemistry with his three young WRs.

The Oline couldn’t maintain a run game. That severely limited playcalling. I believe Carr has mentioned in the past that switching OCs in the past was a hindrance…so here he goes again with a new OC and new system.

I don’t know if Charmical is good or not. Obviously SP thinks he is. I’m Not even sad that he’s gone. I’m just pointing ideas out.

As far as the team missing out on someone they wanted, that could also be so. But they also could be waiting for someone on the Niners or KCs staff. At least for an interview. Seems there are still good candidates available.

iceshack149 · 02-01-2024, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I have come to the realization that some fans are much quicker to anger than others. I suppose their (Gayle's) loyalty is stronger for those they know and love than for the fear of any anger from random fans. Would you not agree that this is understandable?

AsylumGuido · 02-01-2024, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by iceshack149

Nope. Not missing the point. I believe you are assuming that their viewpoint of the situation was the same as yours. You said "We all knew that Carmichael was in over his head." Given that they have far more insight than any of us out here we cannot assume that their take was the same as yours. In fact, it most likely wasn't. I suppose some fan's anger would be based on Loomis and Gayle not seeing things exactly as those on the outside looking in. And this applies to many aspects. Perhaps they saw us still being in reach of that playoff spot, which we absolutely were. Would a total shakeup in midstream make things better or perhaps make things worse? Who knows? Or maybe it was blind loyalty with them knowing Carmichael was hurting more than helping. Perhaps. But, it is all still their prerogative over us as fans, correct? Gayle does own the team, not us.

By all means be angry, but just know that no owner really cares what every fan thinks. Nor should they. They know for a fact that almost anything they do or don't do, say or don't say, is going to piss off someone.

Sinner · 02-01-2024, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

I probably won’t be able to think of a good way to phrase my thoughts without someone coming down on me, but I’ll give it a try.

I think an overlooked part of the “downfall” has been injury…especially to the QBs as a result of injuries and poor play by the Oline. The team finished well(top 10 I think) in scoring by the end of the year. IMO That’s partially because Carr finally got relatively healthy by the last 5 or so games of the season. He seemed to finally have developed a good chemistry with his three young WRs.

The Oline couldn’t maintain a run game. That severely limited playcalling. I believe Carr has mentioned in the past that switching OCs in the past was a hindrance…so here he goes again with a new OC and new system.

I don’t know if Charmical is good or not. Obviously SP thinks he is. I’m Not even sad that he’s gone. I’m just pointing ideas out.

As far as the team missing out on someone they wanted, that could also be so. But they also could be waiting for someone on the Niners or KCs staff. At least for an interview. Seems there are still good candidates available.

And we need a new Head Coach.

K Major · 02-01-2024, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

I probably won’t be able to think of a good way to phrase my thoughts without someone coming down on me, but I’ll give it a try.

I think an overlooked part of the “downfall” has been injury…especially to the QBs as a result of injuries and poor play by the Oline. The team finished well(top 10 I think) in scoring by the end of the year. IMO That’s partially because Carr finally got relatively healthy by the last 5 or so games of the season.

Didn’t the Browns lose their stud RB (Chubb) in week 2? Then lose a stud TACKLE (Conklin)? Then have to call on old man Flacco @ QB?

I don’t believe any NFL team was hit as bad with injuries than the Browns yet they found a way in to post season.

Saints couldn’t even capitalize on having a soft schedule.

Yet here we are … again.

Sinner · 02-01-2024, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Didn’t the Browns lose their stud RB (Chubb) in week 2? Then lose a stud TACKLE (Conklin)? Then have to call on old man Flacco @ QB?

I don’t believe any NFL team was hit as bad with injuries than the Browns yet they found a way in to post season.

Saints couldn’t even capitalize on having a soft schedule.

Yet here we are … again.

Excuses have been like gnats flying around, defending mosquitoes who have been defending poor management and coaching for two years now. Wait until next year, and watch the cycle repeat.

Boston Saint · 02-01-2024, 02:20 PM

Friggin sad when pointing out reality is called making excuses. Teams dealt with injuries better than the Saints did. Some dealt with it worse. If some
Want to say the Jets, For example, didn’t suffer because they had QB injuries I would disagree. Winston getting injured last year and Carr this year both had an impact on the team. Feel free to disagree all you want. It’s a reality, not an excuse.

What about a team like Philly? Weren’t they supposed to be the darlings because they fleeced us in trades and were looking good? Failed down the stretch. The cherry picking of points do bash the team about is ridiculous. Obviously they have flaws. But most teams in the league do…including the two playing for the SB.

02-01-2024, 11:29 AM	#31
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,768	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I believe it's pretty clear that she sees the Saints as far more than just a business. This is one of the reasons why she has mandated the Saints remaining in New Orleans even past her eventual passing. Personally I'll take that sort of guidance over a cutthroat bottom line leader any day. In my many years of working within organizations of all sorts I'd take the former over the latter every time. Times have changed and I understand the younger generations see things like this differently, but it is understandable that she feels the way she feels. If not ours Saints could very well have been elsewhere years ago. It is abundantly clear now, that Gayle sees the Saints as far more (or less) than a progressive, WINNING FOOTBALL TEAM. it is also clear that there are fans who will buy the merch, go to the games, and feel really good about whatever it is that Gayle sees, and continues to put on the field for fans to see. The rest of us came here to watch WINNING FOOTBALL, and it AINT happening.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,768

02-01-2024, 11:33 AM	#32
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,060 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by iceshack149 Amongst many frustrations with the Saints organization the most annoying decision the team made was to keep Carmichael all season and not drop him midseason when everyone knew he wasn't the answer. We could have watched how Ronald Curry handled the offense after the bye week and the team would therefore make a more informed decision on Pete's replacement for the 2024 season. There it ‘tis’. Mentioned this numerous times last season. Saints take a UGLY loss against a BACKUP QB (Dobbs). Mind you, we ONLY became COMPETITIVE once Winston came in . Subsequent BYE week, then get embarrassed AGAIN to another back up (Deridder) in Atlanta. 10 day rest & perform that poorly? Stale & predictable play calling … Pete should have definitely been relieved of his duties as OC. As you mentioned, that would have been a PERFECT opportunity to see what Ronald could do on his own as signal caller. Saints organization has become PASSIVE. Beating the likes of Chicago, Giants, Panthers, etc was fools gold. Yet we are here … again. dizzle88 and Sinner like this.

02-01-2024, 11:34 AM	#33
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by iceshack149 You're missing the point. Generally speaking, loyalty is an admirable quality. Blind loyalty is the sense of giving yourself entirely to someone without caring what he/she will do to your organization. We all knew that Carmichael was in over his head but Loomis and Gayle Benson kept him anyway. They knew that he was a terrible OC but the team and it's fans be damned. That angered a lot of us for good reason. I have come to the realization that some fans are much quicker to anger than others. I suppose their (Gayle's) loyalty is stronger for those they know and love than for the fear of any anger from random fans. Would you not agree that this is understandable?

02-01-2024, 11:59 AM	#34
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,876	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. I probably won’t be able to think of a good way to phrase my thoughts without someone coming down on me, but I’ll give it a try. I think an overlooked part of the “downfall” has been injury…especially to the QBs as a result of injuries and poor play by the Oline. The team finished well(top 10 I think) in scoring by the end of the year. IMO That’s partially because Carr finally got relatively healthy by the last 5 or so games of the season. He seemed to finally have developed a good chemistry with his three young WRs. The Oline couldn’t maintain a run game. That severely limited playcalling. I believe Carr has mentioned in the past that switching OCs in the past was a hindrance…so here he goes again with a new OC and new system. I don’t know if Charmical is good or not. Obviously SP thinks he is. I’m Not even sad that he’s gone. I’m just pointing ideas out. As far as the team missing out on someone they wanted, that could also be so. But they also could be waiting for someone on the Niners or KCs staff. At least for an interview. Seems there are still good candidates available. AsylumGuido likes this.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora

02-01-2024, 12:10 PM	#35
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,093 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I have come to the realization that some fans are much quicker to anger than others. I suppose their (Gayle's) loyalty is stronger for those they know and love than for the fear of any anger from random fans. Would you not agree that this is understandable? Sinner and K Major like this.

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02-01-2024, 12:25 PM	#36
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by iceshack149 Nope. Not missing the point. I believe you are assuming that their viewpoint of the situation was the same as yours. You said "We all knew that Carmichael was in over his head." Given that they have far more insight than any of us out here we cannot assume that their take was the same as yours. In fact, it most likely wasn't. I suppose some fan's anger would be based on Loomis and Gayle not seeing things exactly as those on the outside looking in. And this applies to many aspects. Perhaps they saw us still being in reach of that playoff spot, which we absolutely were. Would a total shakeup in midstream make things better or perhaps make things worse? Who knows? Or maybe it was blind loyalty with them knowing Carmichael was hurting more than helping. Perhaps. But, it is all still their prerogative over us as fans, correct? Gayle does own the team, not us. By all means be angry, but just know that no owner really cares what every fan thinks. Nor should they. They know for a fact that almost anything they do or don't do, say or don't say, is going to piss off someone.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

02-01-2024, 12:27 PM	#37
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,768	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by Boston Saint I probably won’t be able to think of a good way to phrase my thoughts without someone coming down on me, but I’ll give it a try. I think an overlooked part of the “downfall” has been injury…especially to the QBs as a result of injuries and poor play by the Oline. The team finished well(top 10 I think) in scoring by the end of the year. IMO That’s partially because Carr finally got relatively healthy by the last 5 or so games of the season. He seemed to finally have developed a good chemistry with his three young WRs. The Oline couldn’t maintain a run game. That severely limited playcalling. I believe Carr has mentioned in the past that switching OCs in the past was a hindrance…so here he goes again with a new OC and new system. I don’t know if Charmical is good or not. Obviously SP thinks he is. I’m Not even sad that he’s gone. I’m just pointing ideas out. As far as the team missing out on someone they wanted, that could also be so. But they also could be waiting for someone on the Niners or KCs staff. At least for an interview. Seems there are still good candidates available. And we need a new Head Coach.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,768

02-01-2024, 12:28 PM	#38
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,060 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by Boston Saint I probably won’t be able to think of a good way to phrase my thoughts without someone coming down on me, but I’ll give it a try. I think an overlooked part of the “downfall” has been injury…especially to the QBs as a result of injuries and poor play by the Oline. The team finished well(top 10 I think) in scoring by the end of the year. IMO That’s partially because Carr finally got relatively healthy by the last 5 or so games of the season. Didn’t the Browns lose their stud RB (Chubb) in week 2? Then lose a stud TACKLE (Conklin)? Then have to call on old man Flacco @ QB? I don’t believe any NFL team was hit as bad with injuries than the Browns yet they found a way in to post season. Saints couldn’t even capitalize on having a soft schedule. Yet here we are … again. Sinner likes this.

02-01-2024, 12:45 PM	#39
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,768	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Originally Posted by K Major Didn’t the Browns lose their stud RB (Chubb) in week 2? Then lose a stud TACKLE (Conklin)? Then have to call on old man Flacco @ QB? I don’t believe any NFL team was hit as bad with injuries than the Browns yet they found a way in to post season. Saints couldn’t even capitalize on having a soft schedule. Yet here we are … again. Excuses have been like gnats flying around, defending mosquitoes who have been defending poor management and coaching for two years now. Wait until next year, and watch the cycle repeat. K Major likes this.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,768

02-01-2024, 02:20 PM	#40
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,876	Re: Pete Carmichael analytics show you something. Friggin sad when pointing out reality is called making excuses. Teams dealt with injuries better than the Saints did. Some dealt with it worse. If some Want to say the Jets, For example, didn’t suffer because they had QB injuries I would disagree. Winston getting injured last year and Carr this year both had an impact on the team. Feel free to disagree all you want. It’s a reality, not an excuse. What about a team like Philly? Weren’t they supposed to be the darlings because they fleeced us in trades and were looking good? Failed down the stretch. The cherry picking of points do bash the team about is ridiculous. Obviously they have flaws. But most teams in the league do…including the two playing for the SB. AsylumGuido likes this.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora