Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt

AsylumGuido · 03-28-2024, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by keithday123

Is DA under any sort of obligation to give accurate details on a player in the offseason? For instance, do the Saints really want a Defensive End or some other position in the draft and are concerned that a team may try and move ahead of them to swipe a particular player. Maybe this news leaves teams with the impression that the Saints will definitely go O Line in the draft. Maybe just a reach but I know damn well if I were a coach or general manager I would never tell the truth if I didn’t have to.

This time of year is known as the "lying season" in the NFL. They talk about that all the time. You can't believe anything that is said. And, no, there is no obligation to give out any info on players except during the actual season.

saintsfan1976 · 03-28-2024, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I'm going Olumuyiwa Fashanu and Cooper Beebee with my first two picks. Brand new LT and LG.

We have to address the D line early IMO.

So let's fix one side of the line at #14. IF Fashanu is 1, Latham is 1A.

Then sign either Peat or Beckton to hold the other side for a season or two while a later round pick like Blake Fisher or Kiran Amegadji develop like Strief did.

BakoSaint · 03-28-2024, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by keithday123

Is DA under any sort of obligation to give accurate details on a player in the offseason? For instance, do the Saints really want a Defensive End or some other position in the draft and are concerned that a team may try and move ahead of them to swipe a particular player. Maybe this news leaves teams with the impression that the Saints will definitely go O Line in the draft. Maybe just a reach but I know damn well if I were a coach or general manager I would never tell the truth if I didn’t have to.

You make a good point for the advantages of lying but I think you need to consider the disadvantages. Sure, a team should try as best as it can to disguise its draft intentions. That could include exaggerating Ram's injury or it could include exaggerating positives such as saying there is a lot of time left before the start of the season and things could turn around, or that they feel good about the development of Penning and Young.

But if you overstate career threatening injuries to your star players, you are are not just lying, you are lying about your employees. How would you feel if your boss took you to a major industry conference and told all his competitors "Keith is probably retiring soon, he has a bad back, he can barely work, heck he is popping those pain pills so often I don't know if he is addicted or the surgeon left his scalpel in there?" While that could trick his competitors into thinking he would be hiring for your replacement soon when in fact he is looking to hire a totally different position, it would also be a lie that damages your reputation. If Ram's recovery is going great, I don't think he or his agent would want the head coach openly lying to the media and saying its going poorly, because that could damage Ram's reputation, his future marketability to other teams if the Saints ever move on, his negotiating leverage on future contracts since those would be based on his perceived market value to other teams, and his ability to garner endorsements, appearance fees, media employment, etc since a player who is damaged goods on the field is also less marketable off the field. If a team lies about how great a players recovery is going, the player and their agent may not mind, but if they go the other direction and overstate an injury as being career threatening when recovery is going great, that could create a lot of bad blood that makes the player less invested in the team.

Lying about a player also reduces trust with fans. Teams try hard to sell their moves to fans. When an injured players is restructured or extended, the team often tries to present their recovery process as going well. When a team chooses to release a player who is injured, they may overstate injury concerns if they simply cannot afford the player or don't like them in the scheme but they are a fan favorite. But too much lying to fans will create distrust. If Ram and Jordan are both ineffective this year, and Carr struggles with injury in 2024 but the team restructures and extends him anyway while giving glowing reports on his injury recovery, it may be hard to market season tickets in 2025 because fans may lose trust that any such glowing reports are real, and not want season tickets to Nathan Peterman.

Also in poker, if you always bluff, its less effective than if you bluff occasionally.

If a team is going to lie to deceive about its intentions in draft and free agency, it makes sense to do it more sparingly, and in a way that avoids blowback. If Ram is really recovering well, ****ting on his reputation in public would not be a good move. Even if he sees the advantage for the team, it would clearly hurt his reputation, leave him perceived by the league and fans as a Tua type who was a coin flip from retirement and is not worth investing in. If the team burned him that way and it was not true, he might start making noise about his contract after recovering, take plays off, or demand a trade.

rezburna · 03-28-2024, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

We have to address the D line early IMO.

So let's fix one side of the line at #14. IF Fashanu is 1, Latham is 1A.

Then sign either Peat or Beckton to hold the other side for a season or two while a later round pick like Blake Fisher or Kiran Amegadji develop like Strief did.

I was always down on Strief. Felt like he was a huge downgrade from Stinchcomb.

lee909 · 03-28-2024, 03:15 PM

If its fix the offensive or defensive lines im fixing the offense line first. No point in having money thrown at Carr and bringing in a new OC if you can't keep your QB upright and we have seen enough that Carr isn't a QB thats going to stand up well when under pressure. All this comes down to bad drafts since 2017

Too early to tell on many of last years picks but Foskey is just looking again like whoever is scouting the DE needs to go. Davenport(vastly over paid in picks) and Turner.

On the plus side they can spot a good DB.

But not near enough production from top picks and not enough good finds in the mid/late rounds

Just because they have started games, doesn't mean they are a success either.

2018
Marcus Davenport
Tre'Quan Smith
Rick Leonard
Natrell Jamerson
Kamrin Moore
Boston Scott
Will Clapp

2019

Erik McCoy
C.J. Gardner-Johnson
Saquan Hampton
Alizé Mack
Kaden Elliss

2020
Cesar Ruiz
Zack Baun
Adam Trautman
Tommy Stevens

2021
Payton Turner
Pete Werner
Paulson Adebo
Ian Book
Landon Young
Kawaan Bake

2022
Chris Olave
Trevor Penning
Alontae Taylor
D'Marco Jackson
Jordan Jackson

2023
Bryan Bresee
Isaiah Foskey
Kendre Miller
Nick Saldiveri
Jake Haener
Jordan Howden
A.T. Perry

AsylumGuido · 03-28-2024, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by lee909

If its fix the offensive or defensive lines im fixing the offense line first. No point in having money thrown at Carr and bringing in a new OC if you can't keep your QB upright and we have seen enough that Carr isn't a QB thats going to stand up well when under pressure. All this comes down to bad drafts since 2017

Too early to tell on many of last years picks but Foskey is just looking again like whoever is scouting the DE needs to go. Davenport(vastly over paid in picks) and Turner.

On the plus side they can spot a good DB.

But not near enough production from top picks and not enough good finds in the mid/late rounds

Just because they have started games, doesn't mean they are a success either.

Believe it or not there were 24 teams that allowed more sacks than the Saints last season. We were down near the bottom in sacks allowed. Kubiak's offense should be getting the ball out of the QB's hands much quicker than Carmichael's anemic version.

SmashMouth · 03-28-2024, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by lee909

If its fix the offensive or defensive lines im fixing the offense line first. No point in having money thrown at Carr and bringing in a new OC if you can't keep your QB upright and we have seen enough that Carr isn't a QB thats going to stand up well when under pressure. All this comes down to bad drafts since 2017

Too early to tell on many of last years picks but Foskey is just looking again like whoever is scouting the DE needs to go. Davenport(vastly over paid in picks) and Turner.

On the plus side they can spot a good DB.

But not near enough production from top picks and not enough good finds in the mid/late rounds

Just because they have started games, doesn't mean they are a success either.

2018
Marcus Davenport
Tre'Quan Smith
Rick Leonard
Natrell Jamerson
Kamrin Moore
Boston Scott
Will Clapp

2019

Erik McCoy
C.J. Gardner-Johnson
Saquan Hampton
Alizé Mack
Kaden Elliss

2020
Cesar Ruiz
Zack Baun
Adam Trautman
Tommy Stevens

2021
Payton Turner
Pete Werner
Paulson Adebo
Ian Book
Landon Young
Kawaan Bake

2022
Chris Olave
Trevor Penning
Alontae Taylor
D'Marco Jackson
Jordan Jackson

2023
Bryan Bresee
Isaiah Foskey
Kendre Miller
Nick Saldiveri
Jake Haener
Jordan Howden
A.T. Perry

Simply by looking at this list is reason enough to know why we've regressed.

2018
Davenport should be quicker/better with only four fingers.
At least Boston Scott contributed, albeit on the Eagles.
2019
Ramz and CJ ...both solid contributors
2020
Ruiz... I guess.
2021
Werner, Adebo, and Landon
Better but still not good enough.
2022
Best class in a while, top to bottom. Every class needs to be more like this one.
2023
Ditto from above... is this a trend since SP left? Last two years?
Are we to expect a similar outcome this year?

BakoSaint · 03-28-2024, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Simply by looking at this list is reason enough to know why we've regressed.

2018
Davenport should be quicker/better with only four fingers.
At least Boston Scott contributed, albeit on the Eagles.
2019
Ramz and CJ ...both solid contributors
2020
Ruiz... I guess.
2021
Werner, Adebo, and Landon
Better but still not good enough.
2022
Best class in a while, top to bottom. Every class needs to be more like this one.
2023
Ditto from above... is this a trend since SP left? Last two years?
Are we to expect a similar outcome this year?

I disagree on 2022 and 2023 being a real improvement in drafting.

2019 is the best of those drafts. 5 picks that year due to the stupid Davenport deal. Also no 3rd or 6th due to other trades. We pick in the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and two 7ths. We come out with 3 quality starters in 5 picks: Erik McCoy is a pro bowl center, CJ Gardner Johnson has been to the playoffs 4 of his 5 nfl seasons, and Kaden Ellis is a quality starting linebacker.

2022 we traded an immense amount of future draft picks to secure two first round picks. To get an extra first rounded in 2022 we gave up our 2023 first rounder, and our 2024 2nd rounder. To trade up again for Olave we gave up 3rd and 4th round picks I believe. Trevor Penning has looked like a major bust so far. Olave looks like a good #1 receiver but not necessarily a world beater, he has 9 total TDs his first two seasons, has missed a game or two each year, had some issues with effort at times, and has not generally been a player to take over games per se. He is not known for blocking or moving the chains, but is a big play threat on a team without the oline to give the qb time to throw. He seems more like a receiver in the Brandin Cooks, Jaylen Waddle, Devonte Smith, Amari Cooper sort of tier than one of the major elite receivers like Jefferson, Chase, Hill, Adams, MT13 in his prime, Lamb, Brown, Evans, etc. When you consider all the assets we gave up in 2022, and we came away with Olave and Taylor, its not so impressive to me.

We did get back some of the picks we used to trade up in 2022 by trading Sean Payton in 2023. But I don't think thats a reason to ignore the costs.

I don't think we can call 2023 a good draft yet. We got a DT who is still a backup on our depth chart despite every sane person agreeing our starting DT's are very meh. He picked up a good amount of sacks for a part time DT but he has yet to play full time and show he can be well rounded and durable. Bragging about a pick before they start based on like 6 plays is ridiculous. The jury is still out on Bresee. Besides him, we finally found some value in the late rounds, but whiffed in the 2nd round with Foskey so far. Miller looked good in one game, but that was one game against a losing team in a game that was turning out to be meaningless where he averaged 5.6 yards. Thousands of NFL running backs who never became regular starters had one game where they averaged 5+ yards per carry for 70+ yards, so the jury is completely still out on Miller.

K Major · 07-22-2024, 03:22 PM

New Orleans Saints lineman Ryan Ramczyk 'PUP' List - YouTube

AsylumGuido · 07-24-2024, 12:08 PM

Apparently a return in 2025 is still in the cards for Ramczyk according to this.

03-28-2024, 12:23 PM	#51
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,212	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Originally Posted by keithday123 Is DA under any sort of obligation to give accurate details on a player in the offseason? For instance, do the Saints really want a Defensive End or some other position in the draft and are concerned that a team may try and move ahead of them to swipe a particular player. Maybe this news leaves teams with the impression that the Saints will definitely go O Line in the draft. Maybe just a reach but I know damn well if I were a coach or general manager I would never tell the truth if I didn’t have to. This time of year is known as the "lying season" in the NFL. They talk about that all the time. You can't believe anything that is said. And, no, there is no obligation to give out any info on players except during the actual season.

03-28-2024, 12:37 PM	#52
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,832 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Originally Posted by rezburna I'm going Olumuyiwa Fashanu and Cooper Beebee with my first two picks. Brand new LT and LG. We have to address the D line early IMO. So let's fix one side of the line at #14. IF Fashanu is 1, Latham is 1A. Then sign either Peat or Beckton to hold the other side for a season or two while a later round pick like Blake Fisher or Kiran Amegadji develop like Strief did.

03-28-2024, 01:26 PM	#53
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Originally Posted by keithday123 Is DA under any sort of obligation to give accurate details on a player in the offseason? For instance, do the Saints really want a Defensive End or some other position in the draft and are concerned that a team may try and move ahead of them to swipe a particular player. Maybe this news leaves teams with the impression that the Saints will definitely go O Line in the draft. Maybe just a reach but I know damn well if I were a coach or general manager I would never tell the truth if I didn’t have to. You make a good point for the advantages of lying but I think you need to consider the disadvantages. Sure, a team should try as best as it can to disguise its draft intentions. That could include exaggerating Ram's injury or it could include exaggerating positives such as saying there is a lot of time left before the start of the season and things could turn around, or that they feel good about the development of Penning and Young. But if you overstate career threatening injuries to your star players, you are are not just lying, you are lying about your employees. How would you feel if your boss took you to a major industry conference and told all his competitors "Keith is probably retiring soon, he has a bad back, he can barely work, heck he is popping those pain pills so often I don't know if he is addicted or the surgeon left his scalpel in there?" While that could trick his competitors into thinking he would be hiring for your replacement soon when in fact he is looking to hire a totally different position, it would also be a lie that damages your reputation. If Ram's recovery is going great, I don't think he or his agent would want the head coach openly lying to the media and saying its going poorly, because that could damage Ram's reputation, his future marketability to other teams if the Saints ever move on, his negotiating leverage on future contracts since those would be based on his perceived market value to other teams, and his ability to garner endorsements, appearance fees, media employment, etc since a player who is damaged goods on the field is also less marketable off the field. If a team lies about how great a players recovery is going, the player and their agent may not mind, but if they go the other direction and overstate an injury as being career threatening when recovery is going great, that could create a lot of bad blood that makes the player less invested in the team. Lying about a player also reduces trust with fans. Teams try hard to sell their moves to fans. When an injured players is restructured or extended, the team often tries to present their recovery process as going well. When a team chooses to release a player who is injured, they may overstate injury concerns if they simply cannot afford the player or don't like them in the scheme but they are a fan favorite. But too much lying to fans will create distrust. If Ram and Jordan are both ineffective this year, and Carr struggles with injury in 2024 but the team restructures and extends him anyway while giving glowing reports on his injury recovery, it may be hard to market season tickets in 2025 because fans may lose trust that any such glowing reports are real, and not want season tickets to Nathan Peterman. Also in poker, if you always bluff, its less effective than if you bluff occasionally. If a team is going to lie to deceive about its intentions in draft and free agency, it makes sense to do it more sparingly, and in a way that avoids blowback. If Ram is really recovering well, ****ting on his reputation in public would not be a good move. Even if he sees the advantage for the team, it would clearly hurt his reputation, leave him perceived by the league and fans as a Tua type who was a coin flip from retirement and is not worth investing in. If the team burned him that way and it was not true, he might start making noise about his contract after recovering, take plays off, or demand a trade.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135

03-28-2024, 01:54 PM	#54
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 7,903	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 We have to address the D line early IMO. So let's fix one side of the line at #14. IF Fashanu is 1, Latham is 1A. Then sign either Peat or Beckton to hold the other side for a season or two while a later round pick like Blake Fisher or Kiran Amegadji develop like Strief did. I was always down on Strief. Felt like he was a huge downgrade from Stinchcomb.

03-28-2024, 03:15 PM	#55
lee909 Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,803 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt If its fix the offensive or defensive lines im fixing the offense line first. No point in having money thrown at Carr and bringing in a new OC if you can't keep your QB upright and we have seen enough that Carr isn't a QB thats going to stand up well when under pressure. All this comes down to bad drafts since 2017 Too early to tell on many of last years picks but Foskey is just looking again like whoever is scouting the DE needs to go. Davenport(vastly over paid in picks) and Turner. On the plus side they can spot a good DB. But not near enough production from top picks and not enough good finds in the mid/late rounds Just because they have started games, doesn't mean they are a success either. 2018 Marcus Davenport Tre'Quan Smith Rick Leonard Natrell Jamerson Kamrin Moore Boston Scott Will Clapp 2019 Erik McCoy C.J. Gardner-Johnson Saquan Hampton Alizé Mack Kaden Elliss 2020 Cesar Ruiz Zack Baun Adam Trautman Tommy Stevens 2021 Payton Turner Pete Werner Paulson Adebo Ian Book Landon Young Kawaan Bake 2022 Chris Olave Trevor Penning Alontae Taylor D'Marco Jackson Jordan Jackson 2023 Bryan Bresee Isaiah Foskey Kendre Miller Nick Saldiveri Jake Haener Jordan Howden A.T. Perry iceshack149 and SmashMouth like this.
	"Two receivers to the left, Garcon to the right. Manning in the shotgun, puts Collie in motion. Looks in his direction...it's picked off! It's picked off! It's Tracy Porter again! He's runnin' free! He's gonna go all the way!

Latest Blogs
2023 New Orleans Saints: Training Camp Last Blog: 08-01-2023 By: MarchingOn Puck the Fro Browl! Last Blog: 02-05-2023 By: neugey CFP: "Just Keep Doing What You're Doing" Last Blog: 12-08-2022 By: neugey

03-28-2024, 04:33 PM	#56
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,212	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Originally Posted by lee909 If its fix the offensive or defensive lines im fixing the offense line first. No point in having money thrown at Carr and bringing in a new OC if you can't keep your QB upright and we have seen enough that Carr isn't a QB thats going to stand up well when under pressure. All this comes down to bad drafts since 2017 Too early to tell on many of last years picks but Foskey is just looking again like whoever is scouting the DE needs to go. Davenport(vastly over paid in picks) and Turner. On the plus side they can spot a good DB. But not near enough production from top picks and not enough good finds in the mid/late rounds Just because they have started games, doesn't mean they are a success either. Believe it or not there were 24 teams that allowed more sacks than the Saints last season. We were down near the bottom in sacks allowed. Kubiak's offense should be getting the ball out of the QB's hands much quicker than Carmichael's anemic version.

03-28-2024, 09:13 PM	#57
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,123 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Originally Posted by lee909 If its fix the offensive or defensive lines im fixing the offense line first. No point in having money thrown at Carr and bringing in a new OC if you can't keep your QB upright and we have seen enough that Carr isn't a QB thats going to stand up well when under pressure. All this comes down to bad drafts since 2017 Too early to tell on many of last years picks but Foskey is just looking again like whoever is scouting the DE needs to go. Davenport(vastly over paid in picks) and Turner. On the plus side they can spot a good DB. But not near enough production from top picks and not enough good finds in the mid/late rounds Just because they have started games, doesn't mean they are a success either. 2018 Marcus Davenport Tre'Quan Smith Rick Leonard Natrell Jamerson Kamrin Moore Boston Scott Will Clapp 2019 Erik McCoy C.J. Gardner-Johnson Saquan Hampton Alizé Mack Kaden Elliss 2020 Cesar Ruiz Zack Baun Adam Trautman Tommy Stevens 2021 Payton Turner Pete Werner Paulson Adebo Ian Book Landon Young Kawaan Bake 2022 Chris Olave Trevor Penning Alontae Taylor D'Marco Jackson Jordan Jackson 2023 Bryan Bresee Isaiah Foskey Kendre Miller Nick Saldiveri Jake Haener Jordan Howden A.T. Perry Simply by looking at this list is reason enough to know why we've regressed. 2018 Davenport should be quicker/better with only four fingers. At least Boston Scott contributed, albeit on the Eagles. 2019 Ramz and CJ ...both solid contributors 2020 Ruiz... I guess. 2021 Werner, Adebo, and Landon Better but still not good enough. 2022 Best class in a while, top to bottom. Every class needs to be more like this one. 2023 Ditto from above... is this a trend since SP left? Last two years? Are we to expect a similar outcome this year? iceshack149 likes this.

03-28-2024, 11:25 PM	#58
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Originally Posted by SmashMouth Simply by looking at this list is reason enough to know why we've regressed. 2018 Davenport should be quicker/better with only four fingers. At least Boston Scott contributed, albeit on the Eagles. 2019 Ramz and CJ ...both solid contributors 2020 Ruiz... I guess. 2021 Werner, Adebo, and Landon Better but still not good enough. 2022 Best class in a while, top to bottom. Every class needs to be more like this one. 2023 Ditto from above... is this a trend since SP left? Last two years? Are we to expect a similar outcome this year? I disagree on 2022 and 2023 being a real improvement in drafting. 2019 is the best of those drafts. 5 picks that year due to the stupid Davenport deal. Also no 3rd or 6th due to other trades. We pick in the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and two 7ths. We come out with 3 quality starters in 5 picks: Erik McCoy is a pro bowl center, CJ Gardner Johnson has been to the playoffs 4 of his 5 nfl seasons, and Kaden Ellis is a quality starting linebacker. 2022 we traded an immense amount of future draft picks to secure two first round picks. To get an extra first rounded in 2022 we gave up our 2023 first rounder, and our 2024 2nd rounder. To trade up again for Olave we gave up 3rd and 4th round picks I believe. Trevor Penning has looked like a major bust so far. Olave looks like a good #1 receiver but not necessarily a world beater, he has 9 total TDs his first two seasons, has missed a game or two each year, had some issues with effort at times, and has not generally been a player to take over games per se. He is not known for blocking or moving the chains, but is a big play threat on a team without the oline to give the qb time to throw. He seems more like a receiver in the Brandin Cooks, Jaylen Waddle, Devonte Smith, Amari Cooper sort of tier than one of the major elite receivers like Jefferson, Chase, Hill, Adams, MT13 in his prime, Lamb, Brown, Evans, etc. When you consider all the assets we gave up in 2022, and we came away with Olave and Taylor, its not so impressive to me. We did get back some of the picks we used to trade up in 2022 by trading Sean Payton in 2023. But I don't think thats a reason to ignore the costs. I don't think we can call 2023 a good draft yet. We got a DT who is still a backup on our depth chart despite every sane person agreeing our starting DT's are very meh. He picked up a good amount of sacks for a part time DT but he has yet to play full time and show he can be well rounded and durable. Bragging about a pick before they start based on like 6 plays is ridiculous. The jury is still out on Bresee. Besides him, we finally found some value in the late rounds, but whiffed in the 2nd round with Foskey so far. Miller looked good in one game, but that was one game against a losing team in a game that was turning out to be meaningless where he averaged 5.6 yards. Thousands of NFL running backs who never became regular starters had one game where they averaged 5+ yards per carry for 70+ yards, so the jury is completely still out on Miller. Danno and SmashMouth like this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135

07-24-2024, 12:08 PM	#60
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,212	Re: Ramczyk’s Future In Doubt Apparently a return in 2025 is still in the cards for Ramczyk according to this. Twitter