Where's Saintz08?

BlackandBlue · 08-07-2003, 09:37 AM

Did you just get home from happy hour again?

Actually, had just got back from a card game. Yes, I ALSO should have my internet privilages taken away when I\'ve been drinking. Not that I was wrong, I just could have used a little more tact.

By the way, what does your sister look like?

No comment

The problem for Benson was not that the trade was made or weather or not it was the right thing to do as much as Mueller did\'nt let Him in the loop on this decision or any others.

There was something else there, and while there may be some truth to the above statement, I don\'t think you can pinpoint any one reason. I make changes that effect million dollar contracts for multi-million dollar companies, and I\'m not getting fired for it. Sure, I get questioned as to why we changed the configuration, but I\'m not losing my job. You put people in positions that they are qualified for. But the NFL is not just any business. People don\'t buy a NFL franchise to make money, this is like a grown man\'s video game. Some will make a little, a few will break even. The only time they will see any major profit, is when they turn around and sell the team. So I can see both sides of the coin.

There is no cut-and-dry answer. However, many close to the Saints feel that one of the main reasons Mueller was let go is because of the manner in which he dealt with defensive end Joe Johnson\'s contract negotiations.

Johnson said he was extremely close to signing a multi-year deal with the Saints, but then Mueller put a stop to negotiations. A few days later, the Pro Bowl end signed a $33 million deal with the Packers. Many in New Orleans feel that this shocked owner Tom Benson and that his decision to fire Mueller was a result of Johnson\'s departure.

Think real hard where all this speculation came from. Do you remember? This conspiracy theory was created by Joe Johnson during an ESPN interview.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2002/0511/1381350.html
I said this before, and I\'ll say it again, I\'m glad he\'s gone. Hey, I have a bridge to sell you, you interested? Hey, if I said I have it, it must be true, right?

The thought that Benson has somehow black balled Mueller seems a little off to me , Mueller was in line for the dirty bird job and Blank thought differently after the meeting .

Actually, Mueller interviewed for the job, he wasn\'t in line for the position.
And Connell was one blemish on an otherwise steller career. What Randy did in bringing in who he did makes the Connell incident insignificant. Dale Carter, Jerome Pathon, Jake Reed, Victor Riley, Spencer Folau, Joe Horn, Aaron Brooks, Deuce McAllister, Sedrick Hodge....

JOESAM2002 · 08-07-2003, 09:48 AM

and a partridge in a pear tree...... LOL.

You had to know someone would have something dumb to say. LOL. Leave it to me!

saintz08 · 08-07-2003, 11:50 AM

Too say that Mueller was responsible for bringing all those players is somewhat of an interesting thought .

Brooks was with McCarthy in Green Bay . There is some Kansas City connection , I think it is Sheppard , off the top of my head , that brings in Horn and Riley . Coaches have a tendenacy to steal or want familiar faces .

Parcel moved how many X giants around with him ??

Duece fell too the Saints on draft day , too me he was a no brainer at that draft position . Kind of like Moss too the Vikings , without the headache .

Inline in reference to the Falcons position simply means , inline to interview for the position . Which he did .

So far in the past few years , the Bouman trade has impressed me the most . He was a player with no coaching connection , not a free agent and might actually upgrade the position from where it stood last year . Certainly the Bouman trade made draft day amusing , rumor had Bouman leaking the fact the Vikes were after Sullivan .

saint5221 · 08-07-2003, 11:53 AM

I make changes that effect million dollar contracts for multi-million dollar companies, and I\'m not getting fired for it.

There is a very big differance from changeing or adding to an existing deal to going out and signing a multi-million dollar deal with out consulting your boss about it first.

I don\'t think you can pinpoint any one reason.

If you go back a read my previous post you\'ll see I was\'nt. As the situation was explained to me, it was a whole host of problems that were building for some time. Several months before the fireing came I was told it was a possibility and I remember being shocked. At that time Mueller to my outside eyes seemed to be steering this franchise in the right direction and that was all I saw. Sure the personel moves were not all good but the good ones seemed to outweigh the bad, even in retrospect. But the issue put to me was not just about the on the field moves but how they were made and the environment being created inside the organization. There was very bad blood being generated and the roar was getting loud in Benson ears. Mr. Benson wants his management team to work smoothly and it was\'nt. Mueller was not communicating his plans, pushing very hard on people Mr. Benson trusted and not responding to any attempts to do do anything differently. Pile in other factors such as some of the moves not being perfect, the cameras everywhere including personal offices, looking at another job with your longest rival and it just got to be to much. Agree or disagree the move was made.

saintfan · 08-07-2003, 11:54 AM

The Bouman trade impresses you most? Wasn\'t Haz the driving force behind that. Didn\'t Jim wan\'t Bouman in a Saints uniform last year but was unable to get him?

That\'s as close as you\'ve come yet to giving the Head Coach any credit.

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-07-2003, 12:13 PM

Too say that Mueller was responsible for bringing all those players is somewhat of an interesting thought .

Brooks was with McCarthy in Green Bay . There is some Kansas City connection , I think it is Sheppard , off the top of my head , that brings in Horn and Riley . Coaches have a tendenacy to steal or want familiar faces .

That\'s all fine and dandy, but, McCarthy only made a recomendation to get Brooks, Mueller was responisble for McCarthy being here and sure he took input from him. Mueller could have easily said no. You have to give him more credit than you are.

Duece fell too the Saints on draft day , too me he was a no brainer at that draft position . Kind of like Moss too the Vikings , without the headache .

The same arguement could be made to take Duece 8 positions ahead of where he went. Again, it was Mueller who pulled the trigger on the deal, regaurdless of when he was taken and you do not give him enough credit.

So far in the past few years , the Bouman trade has impressed me the most .

I hope your kidding, but if you aren\'t, what exactly impress you about Bouman?

saintz08 · 08-07-2003, 12:53 PM

I will start with this on the Bouman thought :

Todd Bouman Interview
Date Posted: 08/19/2002

Being a Backup is Where He Wants To Be

Most of us saw Todd Bouman step up into the starting role last year when Daunte went out with an injury. Most thought he would be mediocre at best and that the Vikings were done for the year. Everyone forgot to tell Todd. He came in and threw the ball like a vet and even broke some team records until he was sidelined with an injury as well. He set a team record as the only Viking QB to have 60+ yards in 3 straight games and records in passing yards, passing TDs, completion percentage, and quarterback rating (131.5) for Vikings QBs in their first starts.

Now one other thing seems to impress me about Bouman , he can hit a receiver instride , he can make that fly and bye connection .We can add arm strength but at this point it would be a given .

Hopefully that is enough Billy .

Saintsfan if Haslett was the one who wanted Bouman , then yes it was a point in my book for him . Bouman can air it and with these receivers and running attack he could put on quite a show .........

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-07-2003, 01:08 PM

Most of us saw Todd Bouman step up into the starting role last year when Daunte went out with an injury. Most thought he would be mediocre at best and that the Vikings were done for the year. Everyone forgot to tell Todd. He came in and threw the ball like a vet and even broke some team records until he was sidelined with an injury as well. He set a team record as the only Viking QB to have 60+ yards in 3 straight games and records in passing yards, passing TDs, completion percentage, and quarterback rating (131.5) for Vikings QBs in their first starts.
Hopefully that is enough Billy .

That\'s not nearly enough for me........Sorry. Read on.

Doug Williams, who came to the Redskins from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1986, won Super Bowl XXII Most Valuable Player honors when he led Washington to a 42-10 rout of the Denver Broncos. Williams completed 18 of 29 passes for 340 yards and four touchdowns in the victory. Williams outdueled the Broncos\' John Elway, connecting on two long bombs of 80 and 50 yards to Ricky Sanders and a 27-yard pass to Gary Clark.

Doug Williams set some super bowl records but if we picked Williams up in is prime, I would not say that was the best trade we\'ve made.

Bouman could be great, but the only basis you have to say that is that in your mind you see him throwing bomb after bomb for touch downs. He played good for a few games........so what.

[Edited on 7/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 7/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

BlackandBlue · 08-07-2003, 02:11 PM

That\'s all fine and dandy, but, McCarthy only made a recomendation to get Brooks, Mueller was responisble for McCarthy being here and sure he took input from him. Mueller could have easily said no. You have to give him more credit than you are.

EXACTLY. McCarthy was the one that made the recommendation. But it was Mueller that made it happen.
And I too remember reading that Haslett wanted to get Bouman last year, but couldn\'t.

There is a very big differance from changeing or adding to an existing deal to going out and signing a multi-million dollar deal with out consulting your boss about it first.

Actually, you are confusing the issue. Trading Ricky got Mueller into some hot water, not signing a multi-million dollar deal. He made a change at the RB position. And let me explain my position a little better. Multi-million dollar companies rely on me to provide them with mission critical equipment, that could easily effect the companies stability. If something has been discontinued (read traded), it is my job to make sure that a replacement is found and integrated into the configuration so that the company does not miss a beat. Quality of product is #1. Turnaround time is #2. If I had to report every change to my customer, I would lose a ton of hours and money, and it wouldn\'t be significant for my customer, ie, they respect me enough to make changes for the betterment of the company. My choices can make or break the financial security of many of them. So I really don\'t see much difference. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Edited on 7/8/2003 by BlackandBlue]

lumm0x · 08-07-2003, 02:38 PM

When any business hires a \"General Manager\" they have empowered a single individual to act in any manner in the best interests of the business in all matters. Every owner is different in terms of desire to be involved within the operation of his/her business. The owner and the prospective GM must be on the same page before any hiring is ever made. The GM must understand what the owner expects and vice versa. Now if Randy Mueller was under the impression that he had carte blanche to operate the club in all manners, the only place he would have got that was from Benson. If Mueller was told he was only in control within certain areas then he should have been forced to respect those boundaries. Benson was probably used to a lap dog like Kuharich that needed to find out what his opinion was before he could give it. He wasn\'t used to a take charge doer like Mueller. If Benson didn\'t understand that Mueller was going to say \"this is my ship now, have a seat\", then he is employing the wrong hiring practice and is to blame. If Mueller said one thing and did another then he is wrong. We\'ll never know unless they talk about it, which is unlikely.
I also don\'t buy the \"black list\" idea, but rather that Mueller has developed a reputation from this incident and although it may be a year or two, he will get another shot at a floundering club. I will give credit to Mueller for ALL of the successes from the day he was hired, regardless of who brought who in, he brought in Haslett. Who Haslett brought in for staff and players couldn\'t have happened if Mueller had chosen Kubiak or Capers or whomever else was a candidate. Mueller made a good coaching decision and he empowered the subsequent staff to assist him in making smart personnel decisions. That is what a good manager does, surrounds himself with reliable individuals, uses their strengths and knowledge to the betterment of the business, and show growth for the overall business. Mueller did that. Benson is a smart businessman, but I think that Mueller challenged his ego.
I also am a General Manager of a company that currently grosses about a half M a month. I have been here 14 years and the owner knows my stance. The month that I fail to show growth you can criticize my work. Until then sit down, shut up, and count your cash. That was the story 14 years ago, that is the story now. He has never once questioned a business decision of any magnitude, and nor should have Benson as long as their was measurable progress.

[Edited on 7/8/2003 by lumm0x]

08-07-2003, 09:37 AM	#31
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Where's Saintz08? Did you just get home from happy hour again? Actually, had just got back from a card game. Yes, I ALSO should have my internet privilages taken away when I\'ve been drinking. Not that I was wrong, I just could have used a little more tact. By the way, what does your sister look like? No comment The problem for Benson was not that the trade was made or weather or not it was the right thing to do as much as Mueller did\'nt let Him in the loop on this decision or any others. There was something else there, and while there may be some truth to the above statement, I don\'t think you can pinpoint any one reason. I make changes that effect million dollar contracts for multi-million dollar companies, and I\'m not getting fired for it. Sure, I get questioned as to why we changed the configuration, but I\'m not losing my job. You put people in positions that they are qualified for. But the NFL is not just any business. People don\'t buy a NFL franchise to make money, this is like a grown man\'s video game. Some will make a little, a few will break even. The only time they will see any major profit, is when they turn around and sell the team. So I can see both sides of the coin. There is no cut-and-dry answer. However, many close to the Saints feel that one of the main reasons Mueller was let go is because of the manner in which he dealt with defensive end Joe Johnson\'s contract negotiations. Johnson said he was extremely close to signing a multi-year deal with the Saints, but then Mueller put a stop to negotiations. A few days later, the Pro Bowl end signed a $33 million deal with the Packers. Many in New Orleans feel that this shocked owner Tom Benson and that his decision to fire Mueller was a result of Johnson\'s departure. Think real hard where all this speculation came from. Do you remember? This conspiracy theory was created by Joe Johnson during an ESPN interview. http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2002/0511/1381350.html I said this before, and I\'ll say it again, I\'m glad he\'s gone. Hey, I have a bridge to sell you, you interested? Hey, if I said I have it, it must be true, right? The thought that Benson has somehow black balled Mueller seems a little off to me , Mueller was in line for the dirty bird job and Blank thought differently after the meeting . Actually, Mueller interviewed for the job, he wasn\'t in line for the position. And Connell was one blemish on an otherwise steller career. What Randy did in bringing in who he did makes the Connell incident insignificant. Dale Carter, Jerome Pathon, Jake Reed, Victor Riley, Spencer Folau, Joe Horn, Aaron Brooks, Deuce McAllister, Sedrick Hodge....
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

08-07-2003, 09:48 AM	#32
JOESAM2002 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRYSTAL BEACH TEXAS Posts: 4,100	Where's Saintz08? and a partridge in a pear tree...... LOL. You had to know someone would have something dumb to say. LOL. Leave it to me!

08-07-2003, 11:50 AM	#33
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Where's Saintz08? Too say that Mueller was responsible for bringing all those players is somewhat of an interesting thought . Brooks was with McCarthy in Green Bay . There is some Kansas City connection , I think it is Sheppard , off the top of my head , that brings in Horn and Riley . Coaches have a tendenacy to steal or want familiar faces . Parcel moved how many X giants around with him ?? Duece fell too the Saints on draft day , too me he was a no brainer at that draft position . Kind of like Moss too the Vikings , without the headache . Inline in reference to the Falcons position simply means , inline to interview for the position . Which he did . So far in the past few years , the Bouman trade has impressed me the most . He was a player with no coaching connection , not a free agent and might actually upgrade the position from where it stood last year . Certainly the Bouman trade made draft day amusing , rumor had Bouman leaking the fact the Vikes were after Sullivan .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

08-07-2003, 11:53 AM	#34
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Where's Saintz08? I make changes that effect million dollar contracts for multi-million dollar companies, and I\'m not getting fired for it. There is a very big differance from changeing or adding to an existing deal to going out and signing a multi-million dollar deal with out consulting your boss about it first. I don\'t think you can pinpoint any one reason. If you go back a read my previous post you\'ll see I was\'nt. As the situation was explained to me, it was a whole host of problems that were building for some time. Several months before the fireing came I was told it was a possibility and I remember being shocked. At that time Mueller to my outside eyes seemed to be steering this franchise in the right direction and that was all I saw. Sure the personel moves were not all good but the good ones seemed to outweigh the bad, even in retrospect. But the issue put to me was not just about the on the field moves but how they were made and the environment being created inside the organization. There was very bad blood being generated and the roar was getting loud in Benson ears. Mr. Benson wants his management team to work smoothly and it was\'nt. Mueller was not communicating his plans, pushing very hard on people Mr. Benson trusted and not responding to any attempts to do do anything differently. Pile in other factors such as some of the moves not being perfect, the cameras everywhere including personal offices, looking at another job with your longest rival and it just got to be to much. Agree or disagree the move was made.
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

08-07-2003, 11:54 AM	#35
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Where's Saintz08? The Bouman trade impresses you most? Wasn\'t Haz the driving force behind that. Didn\'t Jim wan\'t Bouman in a Saints uniform last year but was unable to get him? That\'s as close as you\'ve come yet to giving the Head Coach any credit.

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08-07-2003, 12:13 PM	#36
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Where's Saintz08? Too say that Mueller was responsible for bringing all those players is somewhat of an interesting thought . Brooks was with McCarthy in Green Bay . There is some Kansas City connection , I think it is Sheppard , off the top of my head , that brings in Horn and Riley . Coaches have a tendenacy to steal or want familiar faces . That\'s all fine and dandy, but, McCarthy only made a recomendation to get Brooks, Mueller was responisble for McCarthy being here and sure he took input from him. Mueller could have easily said no. You have to give him more credit than you are. Duece fell too the Saints on draft day , too me he was a no brainer at that draft position . Kind of like Moss too the Vikings , without the headache . The same arguement could be made to take Duece 8 positions ahead of where he went. Again, it was Mueller who pulled the trigger on the deal, regaurdless of when he was taken and you do not give him enough credit. So far in the past few years , the Bouman trade has impressed me the most . I hope your kidding, but if you aren\'t, what exactly impress you about Bouman?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

08-07-2003, 12:53 PM	#37
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Where's Saintz08? I will start with this on the Bouman thought : Todd Bouman Interview Date Posted: 08/19/2002 Being a Backup is Where He Wants To Be Most of us saw Todd Bouman step up into the starting role last year when Daunte went out with an injury. Most thought he would be mediocre at best and that the Vikings were done for the year. Everyone forgot to tell Todd. He came in and threw the ball like a vet and even broke some team records until he was sidelined with an injury as well. He set a team record as the only Viking QB to have 60+ yards in 3 straight games and records in passing yards, passing TDs, completion percentage, and quarterback rating (131.5) for Vikings QBs in their first starts. Now one other thing seems to impress me about Bouman , he can hit a receiver instride , he can make that fly and bye connection .We can add arm strength but at this point it would be a given . Hopefully that is enough Billy . Saintsfan if Haslett was the one who wanted Bouman , then yes it was a point in my book for him . Bouman can air it and with these receivers and running attack he could put on quite a show .........
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

08-07-2003, 01:08 PM	#38
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Where's Saintz08? Most of us saw Todd Bouman step up into the starting role last year when Daunte went out with an injury. Most thought he would be mediocre at best and that the Vikings were done for the year. Everyone forgot to tell Todd. He came in and threw the ball like a vet and even broke some team records until he was sidelined with an injury as well. He set a team record as the only Viking QB to have 60+ yards in 3 straight games and records in passing yards, passing TDs, completion percentage, and quarterback rating (131.5) for Vikings QBs in their first starts. Hopefully that is enough Billy . That\'s not nearly enough for me........Sorry. Read on. Doug Williams, who came to the Redskins from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1986, won Super Bowl XXII Most Valuable Player honors when he led Washington to a 42-10 rout of the Denver Broncos. Williams completed 18 of 29 passes for 340 yards and four touchdowns in the victory. Williams outdueled the Broncos\' John Elway, connecting on two long bombs of 80 and 50 yards to Ricky Sanders and a 27-yard pass to Gary Clark. Doug Williams set some super bowl records but if we picked Williams up in is prime, I would not say that was the best trade we\'ve made. Bouman could be great, but the only basis you have to say that is that in your mind you see him throwing bomb after bomb for touch downs. He played good for a few games........so what. [Edited on 7/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1] [Edited on 7/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

08-07-2003, 02:11 PM	#39
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Where's Saintz08? That\'s all fine and dandy, but, McCarthy only made a recomendation to get Brooks, Mueller was responisble for McCarthy being here and sure he took input from him. Mueller could have easily said no. You have to give him more credit than you are. EXACTLY. McCarthy was the one that made the recommendation. But it was Mueller that made it happen. And I too remember reading that Haslett wanted to get Bouman last year, but couldn\'t. There is a very big differance from changeing or adding to an existing deal to going out and signing a multi-million dollar deal with out consulting your boss about it first. Actually, you are confusing the issue. Trading Ricky got Mueller into some hot water, not signing a multi-million dollar deal. He made a change at the RB position. And let me explain my position a little better. Multi-million dollar companies rely on me to provide them with mission critical equipment, that could easily effect the companies stability. If something has been discontinued (read traded), it is my job to make sure that a replacement is found and integrated into the configuration so that the company does not miss a beat. Quality of product is #1. Turnaround time is #2. If I had to report every change to my customer, I would lose a ton of hours and money, and it wouldn\'t be significant for my customer, ie, they respect me enough to make changes for the betterment of the company. My choices can make or break the financial security of many of them. So I really don\'t see much difference. Please correct me if I am wrong. [Edited on 7/8/2003 by BlackandBlue]
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

08-07-2003, 02:38 PM	#40
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Where's Saintz08? When any business hires a \"General Manager\" they have empowered a single individual to act in any manner in the best interests of the business in all matters. Every owner is different in terms of desire to be involved within the operation of his/her business. The owner and the prospective GM must be on the same page before any hiring is ever made. The GM must understand what the owner expects and vice versa. Now if Randy Mueller was under the impression that he had carte blanche to operate the club in all manners, the only place he would have got that was from Benson. If Mueller was told he was only in control within certain areas then he should have been forced to respect those boundaries. Benson was probably used to a lap dog like Kuharich that needed to find out what his opinion was before he could give it. He wasn\'t used to a take charge doer like Mueller. If Benson didn\'t understand that Mueller was going to say \"this is my ship now, have a seat\", then he is employing the wrong hiring practice and is to blame. If Mueller said one thing and did another then he is wrong. We\'ll never know unless they talk about it, which is unlikely. I also don\'t buy the \"black list\" idea, but rather that Mueller has developed a reputation from this incident and although it may be a year or two, he will get another shot at a floundering club. I will give credit to Mueller for ALL of the successes from the day he was hired, regardless of who brought who in, he brought in Haslett. Who Haslett brought in for staff and players couldn\'t have happened if Mueller had chosen Kubiak or Capers or whomever else was a candidate. Mueller made a good coaching decision and he empowered the subsequent staff to assist him in making smart personnel decisions. That is what a good manager does, surrounds himself with reliable individuals, uses their strengths and knowledge to the betterment of the business, and show growth for the overall business. Mueller did that. Benson is a smart businessman, but I think that Mueller challenged his ego. I also am a General Manager of a company that currently grosses about a half M a month. I have been here 14 years and the owner knows my stance. The month that I fail to show growth you can criticize my work. Until then sit down, shut up, and count your cash. That was the story 14 years ago, that is the story now. He has never once questioned a business decision of any magnitude, and nor should have Benson as long as their was measurable progress. [Edited on 7/8/2003 by lumm0x]

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