Saints defense has actually played well...

Tobias-Reiper · 11-23-2005, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by BlackonBlack

so, scoring 10, 3, 6, 16 points in 4 games, that's not a liability...

.. so, turning the ball over 28 times, tops in the NFL, 11 times in 2 games, that don't count...

... so failing to convert on 3rd down is not a liabilty ( including going 2 for 24 in a span of 2 games) that's minutia...

... so, scoring 16 TD's in 10 games, that's the defense's fault... they ought to "take it to the house" couple of times a game...

... so, not scoring any points off turnovers by the opposition, who cares?

..the more I see the games' results, the more than "adequate" the defense looks to me, and the worse the offense looks...

I find it very strange that, scoring very little points offensively seems to work so well for the rest of the NFL, but it's out of question for this Saints team.

The Colts scored how many offensive points the first 4 weeks of the season? How many points offensively did the Pat's score throughout the Playoff in route to the Superbowl Brady's first year?

How many points offensively did the Buc's score in route to the Superbowl?

How many points offensively did the Panthers score in route to their Superbol trip?

How many points have the Bears scored this season on offense?

How many points offensively have the Panthers scored this year?

BoB, my dear BoB... you really need to stop and think before you post...

...let ME ask YOU a couple of questions:

On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Bucs turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won?

On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won?

Answwer to both questions: none

Do you see it, or do I have to explain it to you? Te offense has been so abyssmal this year that it is hanging the very average defense out to dry...

..you obviously don't want to see it, because the first thing that comes to your mind is defending Brooks, since he's part of the offense... obviously your fandom is devoted to a player, not the team...

... of course, it is easier to blame it all on the defense, and ask why they aren't as good as the best defenses of the past and present...

TheGambler · 11-24-2005, 01:34 AM

You are quick to dismiss anything BlackOnBlack says.......but he actually had a good point about the Bears of this season, and their point production..

I'm not giving the offense a free pass in any way. You asked why didn't I refute your points? I acknowledged your points! I said that our offense had cost us games as a result of the stuff you listed, JUST AS our defense cost us game with spotty play.

The only reason I joined in on this debate was simply to point out that I think our defense is being a bit too much credit. If you want me to break it down into descriptive terms, I think we have an average defense (compared to below-average last year)and a spotty offense. If you want to weigh it precicely, I will concede that our defense has been slightly more consistant than the offense, but they are by no means some major force to be reckoned with.
Remember, Haslett once had to pull ALL THREE of his starting linebackers in the Minnesota game because of crappy play. Good defenses don't have that happen. Or how about players running into each other in the New England game? Or Dwight Smith looking at someone's cleats after Mike McKenzie let that person run right by him? You can have a bunch of talent (and we have lots of talent....from the passrushers, to Bockwaldt, to McKinnon, to McKenzie, to Smith, to Fahkir Brown, to Freddie Thomas to Bollocks...etc etc), but talent doesn't mean squat if you aren't playing as a team. Yes I know that's about as generic and cliche' as it gets, but look no further than the 2000 (or 2001?) Washington Redskins. They brought all the talent they could manage in order to make a Super Bowl run, and they wound up going something like 8-8.

Back on the subject of our talented, albeit underachieving at times, defense...... Could you imagine how scary our defense COULD be if we had a different defensive coordinator?

BlackandBlue · 11-24-2005, 10:11 AM

Wait, wait, wait. Tobias asked you the following questions:

On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won?

And you reply with:

Let's look directly at the QB of the Panthers that year.

2003 Carolina Panthers 16 15 449 266 59.2 3219 7.17 67 19 16 23/168 46 9 80.6

games played/ fumbles/ atts/ completions//comp.%/yards/ ypa/ lg/ TD'S/INT'S.

So as you can tell you have already been shown to be wrong about the Panthers, now I'm off to NFL.COM to prove you wrong on the Buc's.

Tobias' question is acutally four-pronged, so let's check your answers to see if they match up.

On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times?

I can see from your answer that Jake fumbled 15 times and threw 16 interceptions- that's 31 turnovers total....for Jake. Still hasn't answered the original question, but you were close. Out of 53 players, you managed to post the stats of one. 52 more to go.

or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs

Don't see where you provided any information on this.

or failed to score points of 3 turnovers

Don't see where you provided any information on this.

or scored less that 10 points and won?

Don't see where you provided any information on this.

So as you can tell you have already been shown to be wrong about the Panthers

You do realize by posting something that doesn't answer the original question, reagardless of whether you roll the "You're Wrong" flag up the pole, people will rip right through it.

So far you've managed to provide everyone how many turnovers Jake had back in 2003. Congrats, I wasn't sure about the appoximate number, but had I been asked to take a guess, i would have been close. Outside of that, you have provided NOTHING in the way of an valid answer to the questions that were posed to you, even if you act like you've answered them....you haven't.

yasoon · 11-24-2005, 11:05 AM

So, when discussing our D, we should talk about the Bears defense? I believe they are statistically the best in the league.

Nobody here said that the Saints D was the best in the league. Gambler said too much credit was being given, which again shows some of the reading comprehension issues on this board. Nobody has come out and said the Saints have a top 5 defense. The numbers versus the pass are probably better because people don't throw as much against teams they can gash on the ground. (objectivity warning)

The defense is not fantastic, or even good. The point in this thread is that the defense is adequate. BnB, if you are going to mention the Bears, who are doing it with great D and smart play (and a rookie QB), then I guess we should ask how many times last years Colts were held to 6 points and compare them to our sorry ass offense. It's completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The point of this thread is as follows. (These are facts, indisputable, and totally correct.)

The Saints have built a reputation over the last few years that their formula for success is a high powered offense with a rocket arm QB and speedy receivers, mixed in with a solid running game (which has been a bit disappointing). They are not the Bears of 2005 or 1985 or the Bucs or the Ravens....if you think they are designed that way, well, you're a moron. The offense is expected to score, not 40 points like some recent teams (Chiefs, Colts, Rams, Vikes), but a respectable amount of points. I set my bar at about 24 points a game. Three Tds and a FG in 4 qtrs....not crazy talk...right?

So, when this team fails to break 20 routinely, and people come out against the Defense, it rings hollow. It is not accurate. Look at the turnovers, look at the lack of production by the O once they cross the 50. The point totals are way down. The offense is simply not scorong enough. The Defense is playing better, rankings or otherwise. We still can't stop the run, which is a big problem...but again 6 points against a battered Dolphins D, 3 points against the Packers practice squad, and only 17 against a no name Pats secondary. 348 yards passing....17 points. All style, no substance, which is what you get from our QB.

This team could not win on dominant defense alone, and nobody said they could. But, with our offense, middle of the road D should get you to at least 500 right now. The D has played well enough, the offense only showed up big for the Falcons. (And BNB, how you can blame our D for that loss amazes me.....14 non offenseive points and a late Brooks pick inside the 20 put us in that situation, whether Vick got to us on the last drive or not...he was bottled up all day and the D played a solid game.)

lynwood · 11-24-2005, 12:19 PM

wow 5 back to back posts. Nice job. You talk about the defense being able to finish a game? How about an offense that can actually get in it? Speaking for myself I don't care about any other qb's stats or offense stats or defense stats. Show me good play on the field and get me wins. The offense can't score worth a crap and brooks throws into the ground and behind recievers. That's what I see on sundays. Something for the defense side of the ball...Craft sucks. There now you can't say I've singled out Brooks.

lynwood · 11-24-2005, 12:26 PM

Why are you posting carolina stats. I trhought this was a saints forum? Brooks stats not good enough to post?

lynwood · 11-24-2005, 12:38 PM

Yeah but you always bring up Jake so you must have started it.

Tobias-Reiper · 11-24-2005, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by BlackonBlack

Wait, wait, wait. Tobias asked you the following questions:

Quote:
On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won?

And you reply with:

O.K., since I have to go do all this research to prove once again that I was right all along then fine.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebo...031123_CAR@DAL

Here's one be back in a second... 1 for 11 on 3rd downs...

HA HA HA!!

Hey, really.. stop embarassing yourself... yes the Panthers were horrible converting 3rd downs in that game against the Cowboys in their Superbowl year.... and guess what??

THE PANTHERS LOST THE FREAKING GAME 24-20!!!!!

... seriously dude, just stop it...

Tobias-Reiper · 11-24-2005, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by BlackonBlack

Here we go, 2004 Buc's had only 9 offesive TD'S the entire year.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NF...r?sort_col_1=4

yep, and the 2004 Bucs ended 5-11 ...

seriously, stop it man...

Tobias-Reiper · 11-24-2005, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by BlackonBlack

3 Fumbles, 2INT'S here..

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebo...031207_CAR@ATL

..yep, and again, THE PANTHERS LOST THE GAME, didn't they?

... I'm going to stop right here, because you are just rambling now... it's past the amusing point, and now it is just sad...

11-23-2005, 08:36 PM	#21
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Originally Posted by BlackonBlack so, scoring 10, 3, 6, 16 points in 4 games, that's not a liability... .. so, turning the ball over 28 times, tops in the NFL, 11 times in 2 games, that don't count... ... so failing to convert on 3rd down is not a liabilty ( including going 2 for 24 in a span of 2 games) that's minutia... ... so, scoring 16 TD's in 10 games, that's the defense's fault... they ought to "take it to the house" couple of times a game... ... so, not scoring any points off turnovers by the opposition, who cares? ..the more I see the games' results, the more than "adequate" the defense looks to me, and the worse the offense looks... I find it very strange that, scoring very little points offensively seems to work so well for the rest of the NFL, but it's out of question for this Saints team. The Colts scored how many offensive points the first 4 weeks of the season? How many points offensively did the Pat's score throughout the Playoff in route to the Superbowl Brady's first year? How many points offensively did the Buc's score in route to the Superbowl? How many points offensively did the Panthers score in route to their Superbol trip? How many points have the Bears scored this season on offense? How many points offensively have the Panthers scored this year? BoB, my dear BoB... you really need to stop and think before you post... ...let ME ask YOU a couple of questions: On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Bucs turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won? On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won? Answwer to both questions: none Do you see it, or do I have to explain it to you? Te offense has been so abyssmal this year that it is hanging the very average defense out to dry... ..you obviously don't want to see it, because the first thing that comes to your mind is defending Brooks, since he's part of the offense... obviously your fandom is devoted to a player, not the team... ... of course, it is easier to blame it all on the defense, and ask why they aren't as good as the best defenses of the past and present...
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

11-24-2005, 01:34 AM	#22
TheGambler 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 610	You are quick to dismiss anything BlackOnBlack says.......but he actually had a good point about the Bears of this season, and their point production.. I'm not giving the offense a free pass in any way. You asked why didn't I refute your points? I acknowledged your points! I said that our offense had cost us games as a result of the stuff you listed, JUST AS our defense cost us game with spotty play. The only reason I joined in on this debate was simply to point out that I think our defense is being a bit too much credit. If you want me to break it down into descriptive terms, I think we have an average defense (compared to below-average last year)and a spotty offense. If you want to weigh it precicely, I will concede that our defense has been slightly more consistant than the offense, but they are by no means some major force to be reckoned with. Remember, Haslett once had to pull ALL THREE of his starting linebackers in the Minnesota game because of crappy play. Good defenses don't have that happen. Or how about players running into each other in the New England game? Or Dwight Smith looking at someone's cleats after Mike McKenzie let that person run right by him? You can have a bunch of talent (and we have lots of talent....from the passrushers, to Bockwaldt, to McKinnon, to McKenzie, to Smith, to Fahkir Brown, to Freddie Thomas to Bollocks...etc etc), but talent doesn't mean squat if you aren't playing as a team. Yes I know that's about as generic and cliche' as it gets, but look no further than the 2000 (or 2001?) Washington Redskins. They brought all the talent they could manage in order to make a Super Bowl run, and they wound up going something like 8-8. Back on the subject of our talented, albeit underachieving at times, defense...... Could you imagine how scary our defense COULD be if we had a different defensive coordinator?
TheGambler 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 610

11-24-2005, 10:11 AM	#23
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Wait, wait, wait. Tobias asked you the following questions: On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won? And you reply with: Let's look directly at the QB of the Panthers that year. 2003 Carolina Panthers 16 15 449 266 59.2 3219 7.17 67 19 16 23/168 46 9 80.6 games played/ fumbles/ atts/ completions//comp.%/yards/ ypa/ lg/ TD'S/INT'S. So as you can tell you have already been shown to be wrong about the Panthers, now I'm off to NFL.COM to prove you wrong on the Buc's. Tobias' question is acutally four-pronged, so let's check your answers to see if they match up. On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times? I can see from your answer that Jake fumbled 15 times and threw 16 interceptions- that's 31 turnovers total....for Jake. Still hasn't answered the original question, but you were close. Out of 53 players, you managed to post the stats of one. 52 more to go. or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs Don't see where you provided any information on this. or failed to score points of 3 turnovers Don't see where you provided any information on this. or scored less that 10 points and won? Don't see where you provided any information on this. So as you can tell you have already been shown to be wrong about the Panthers You do realize by posting something that doesn't answer the original question, reagardless of whether you roll the "You're Wrong" flag up the pole, people will rip right through it. So far you've managed to provide everyone how many turnovers Jake had back in 2003. Congrats, I wasn't sure about the appoximate number, but had I been asked to take a guess, i would have been close. Outside of that, you have provided NOTHING in the way of an valid answer to the questions that were posed to you, even if you act like you've answered them....you haven't.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

11-24-2005, 11:05 AM	#24
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594	So, when discussing our D, we should talk about the Bears defense? I believe they are statistically the best in the league. Nobody here said that the Saints D was the best in the league. Gambler said too much credit was being given, which again shows some of the reading comprehension issues on this board. Nobody has come out and said the Saints have a top 5 defense. The numbers versus the pass are probably better because people don't throw as much against teams they can gash on the ground. (objectivity warning) The defense is not fantastic, or even good. The point in this thread is that the defense is adequate. BnB, if you are going to mention the Bears, who are doing it with great D and smart play (and a rookie QB), then I guess we should ask how many times last years Colts were held to 6 points and compare them to our sorry ass offense. It's completely irrelevant to this discussion. The point of this thread is as follows. (These are facts, indisputable, and totally correct.) The Saints have built a reputation over the last few years that their formula for success is a high powered offense with a rocket arm QB and speedy receivers, mixed in with a solid running game (which has been a bit disappointing). They are not the Bears of 2005 or 1985 or the Bucs or the Ravens....if you think they are designed that way, well, you're a moron. The offense is expected to score, not 40 points like some recent teams (Chiefs, Colts, Rams, Vikes), but a respectable amount of points. I set my bar at about 24 points a game. Three Tds and a FG in 4 qtrs....not crazy talk...right? So, when this team fails to break 20 routinely, and people come out against the Defense, it rings hollow. It is not accurate. Look at the turnovers, look at the lack of production by the O once they cross the 50. The point totals are way down. The offense is simply not scorong enough. The Defense is playing better, rankings or otherwise. We still can't stop the run, which is a big problem...but again 6 points against a battered Dolphins D, 3 points against the Packers practice squad, and only 17 against a no name Pats secondary. 348 yards passing....17 points. All style, no substance, which is what you get from our QB. This team could not win on dominant defense alone, and nobody said they could. But, with our offense, middle of the road D should get you to at least 500 right now. The D has played well enough, the offense only showed up big for the Falcons. (And BNB, how you can blame our D for that loss amazes me.....14 non offenseive points and a late Brooks pick inside the 20 put us in that situation, whether Vick got to us on the last drive or not...he was bottled up all day and the D played a solid game.)
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594

11-24-2005, 01:41 PM	#28
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Originally Posted by BlackonBlack Wait, wait, wait. Tobias asked you the following questions: Quote: On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won? And you reply with: O.K., since I have to go do all this research to prove once again that I was right all along then fine. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebo...031123_CAR@DAL Here's one be back in a second... 1 for 11 on 3rd downs... HA HA HA!! Hey, really.. stop embarassing yourself... yes the Panthers were horrible converting 3rd downs in that game against the Cowboys in their Superbowl year.... and guess what?? THE PANTHERS LOST THE FREAKING GAME 24-20!!!!! ... seriously dude, just stop it...

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11-24-2005, 12:19 PM	#25
lynwood 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hockley, Tx Posts: 1,515	wow 5 back to back posts. Nice job. You talk about the defense being able to finish a game? How about an offense that can actually get in it? Speaking for myself I don't care about any other qb's stats or offense stats or defense stats. Show me good play on the field and get me wins. The offense can't score worth a crap and brooks throws into the ground and behind recievers. That's what I see on sundays. Something for the defense side of the ball...Craft sucks. There now you can't say I've singled out Brooks.

11-24-2005, 12:26 PM	#26
lynwood 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hockley, Tx Posts: 1,515	Why are you posting carolina stats. I trhought this was a saints forum? Brooks stats not good enough to post?

11-24-2005, 12:38 PM	#27
lynwood 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hockley, Tx Posts: 1,515	Yeah but you always bring up Jake so you must have started it.

11-24-2005, 01:50 PM	#29
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Originally Posted by BlackonBlack Here we go, 2004 Buc's had only 9 offesive TD'S the entire year. http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NF...r?sort_col_1=4 yep, and the 2004 Bucs ended 5-11 ... seriously, stop it man...

11-24-2005, 01:53 PM	#30
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Originally Posted by BlackonBlack 3 Fumbles, 2INT'S here.. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebo...031207_CAR@ATL ..yep, and again, THE PANTHERS LOST THE GAME, didn't they? ... I'm going to stop right here, because you are just rambling now... it's past the amusing point, and now it is just sad...