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bush sitting out this yr?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Deuce held out to his rookie season untill a week or so into camp...

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Old 07-23-2006, 01:08 PM   #21
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Deuce held out to his rookie season untill a week or so into camp
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Old 07-23-2006, 06:25 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by NoBandwagonrs
Deuce held out to his rookie season untill a week or so into camp
Deuce wasn't dubbed the "Savior of the franchise" though. Many think that Bush is somehow going to magically transform this Saints team into a team that can make a deep playoff run.

This season is going to be tough. The NFC South is arguably the best division in the NFL. Some would put the NFC East and the AFC North in that category, and we have 14 of our 16 games against teams in those three divisions.

The team needs to get an air of respectibility this year. Play tough. Win some games. Win any game they are supposed to win and steal a couple they are not.

Bush is going to fit into that equation. But the guy isn't going to be LT his first season. He'll have to grow into that back.

But he does need to be in camp somewhat early in order to be a factor. Whatever contract he signs he is probably stuck with for the next 5 years. So he needs to get his guaranteed money and escalators and voidables that are not impossible to obtain (see Ricky Williams' rookie contract for counter examples).

So like I said, it'll take a minute. Nothing will get done until Vince Young signs anyway. And because of that dude's agent, that contract may be a mess too.

It'll only get intractable if one side or the other asks for something unreasonable. Anything close to Mario WIlliams' money from the Bush camp, or Alex Smith's money from the Saints camp is unreasonable. So the numbers should shake out something like:

- 5 or 6 years w/ 1-2 years voidable

- $53-$54M total value.

- $24-25M guaranteed

- Signing and option bonuses an open question.

- Escalators unclear.

But the two sides are going to have to get the first 3 issues off the table before any real progress will get made.

SFIAH

Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO

Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.
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Old 07-23-2006, 06:48 PM   #23
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GM, Subway, Adidas, and Pepsi say he'll play this year.
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Old 07-23-2006, 10:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper
GM, Subway, Adidas, and Pepsi say he'll play this year.
exactly.
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Old 07-24-2006, 08:37 PM   #25
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here

Here's a nice little nasty pain in the butt article today from WWL...

http://www.wwl.com/Article.asp?id=248442&spid=

Gus Kattengell / WWL Sports Reporter

7-24-06



Report: Bush contemplating sitting out season



Could the unthinkable happen? The savior to be, hold out for the 2006 season and never put on the Black and Gold? A report this weekend suggests such a tactic is being considered from the Heisman winner’s camp. According to the report, league sources stated that Reggie Bush is thinking about sitting out the year and reentering the draft in ’07.



It is believed that Bush is seeking to be paid equally or more than top overall pick Mario Williams of the Houston Texans. Guaranteed money is the key when it comes to NFL contracts and that is undoubtedly what’s keeping this deal from being finalized. Williams got $26.4 million in guaranteed cash, $2.4 million more than San Francisco’s Alex Smith, last year’s top overall pick, who received $24 million. Dolphins running back Ronnie Brown was the 2nd player taken overall in the 2005 NFL Draft. Brown received $19.5 million in guaranteed money. So you might expect under normal circumstances, Bush would likely get between $21 and $24 million. However, Bush has endeared himself to the community, has helped the team sell season tickets at a record level and is the most talked about rookie heading into the 2006 NFL season.



So who holds the cards in the negotiation? Bush’s side can contend that he already has shown what type of impact he can have on an organization. They can understandably argue that sort of marketing weapon for a team shouldn’t come cheaply. The Saints have their tickets sold already, and should have a healthy Deuce McAllister returning, not to mention an upgrade at quarterback in Drew Brees. Bush’s side would argue however, Brees and McAllister are coming off surgeries and that the team shouldn’t risk upsetting their fan base by not signing a player that’s created so much excitement.



One thing is for certain. Saints General Manager Mickey Loomis has a tough task in getting this deal done, especially if Bush’s hold out goes deep into training. So what if the Saints offer Bush the same money Mario Williams received from the Texans, $26 million in guaranteed money and Bush passes?



I do feel that Bush has some leverage, to an extent. If he threatens holding out the season base on a difference of $2-$3 million dollars, then I believe the fans will not be as supportive. Let’s be real, in a community still recovering from Hurricane Katrina, having someone, potential or no potential to help you win games, turns down a contract based on that difference, it will not be supported.



The truth is both sides equally share in the rewards or fallout based on the situation. The Saints and Bush both win if he gets signed and into camp on time. Bush gets his money and local endorsement deals begin to spring up. The fan base gets excited, the organization gets their player on the field and boom there goes the national attention train leaving the station. Draw out this negotiations and the team looks bad for not shelling out money. Bush goes from generous gift giver to being just another greedy athlete. I was on a national radio show this weekend and the host informed me, that the station was polling listeners on their view of Bush. It was over 70% negative, callers were even calling the show, suggesting the Saints let him sit out the year and then he can see just what team would sign him next season.



Let’s just hope this is posturing by the Bush camp, trying to increase the pressure as camp approaches. Hold out, that’s fine. Make your point. Sitting out the entire season is ridiculous and in my mind, would hurt both sides for a long time.

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Old 07-24-2006, 09:33 PM   #26
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Look, Bush will sign, the Saints can't pay him more money then Mario it's just the way it is, everything is slotted. And to change that will change the way teams draft forever.
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:03 AM   #27
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I believe it if I hear Reggie say it.
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:31 AM   #28
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Re: here

Originally Posted by Halo
Here's a nice little nasty pain in the butt article today from WWL...

http://www.wwl.com/Article.asp?id=248442&spid=

Gus Kattengell / WWL Sports Reporter

7-24-06



Report: Bush contemplating sitting out season



Could the unthinkable happen? The savior to be, hold out for the 2006 season and never put on the Black and Gold? A report this weekend suggests such a tactic is being considered from the Heisman winner’s camp. According to the report, league sources stated that Reggie Bush is thinking about sitting out the year and reentering the draft in ’07.



It is believed that Bush is seeking to be paid equally or more than top overall pick Mario Williams of the Houston Texans. Guaranteed money is the key when it comes to NFL contracts and that is undoubtedly what’s keeping this deal from being finalized. Williams got $26.4 million in guaranteed cash, $2.4 million more than San Francisco’s Alex Smith, last year’s top overall pick, who received $24 million. Dolphins running back Ronnie Brown was the 2nd player taken overall in the 2005 NFL Draft. Brown received $19.5 million in guaranteed money. So you might expect under normal circumstances, Bush would likely get between $21 and $24 million. However, Bush has endeared himself to the community, has helped the team sell season tickets at a record level and is the most talked about rookie heading into the 2006 NFL season.



So who holds the cards in the negotiation? Bush’s side can contend that he already has shown what type of impact he can have on an organization. They can understandably argue that sort of marketing weapon for a team shouldn’t come cheaply. The Saints have their tickets sold already, and should have a healthy Deuce McAllister returning, not to mention an upgrade at quarterback in Drew Brees. Bush’s side would argue however, Brees and McAllister are coming off surgeries and that the team shouldn’t risk upsetting their fan base by not signing a player that’s created so much excitement.



One thing is for certain. Saints General Manager Mickey Loomis has a tough task in getting this deal done, especially if Bush’s hold out goes deep into training. So what if the Saints offer Bush the same money Mario Williams received from the Texans, $26 million in guaranteed money and Bush passes?



I do feel that Bush has some leverage, to an extent. If he threatens holding out the season base on a difference of $2-$3 million dollars, then I believe the fans will not be as supportive. Let’s be real, in a community still recovering from Hurricane Katrina, having someone, potential or no potential to help you win games, turns down a contract based on that difference, it will not be supported.



The truth is both sides equally share in the rewards or fallout based on the situation. The Saints and Bush both win if he gets signed and into camp on time. Bush gets his money and local endorsement deals begin to spring up. The fan base gets excited, the organization gets their player on the field and boom there goes the national attention train leaving the station. Draw out this negotiations and the team looks bad for not shelling out money. Bush goes from generous gift giver to being just another greedy athlete. I was on a national radio show this weekend and the host informed me, that the station was polling listeners on their view of Bush. It was over 70% negative, callers were even calling the show, suggesting the Saints let him sit out the year and then he can see just what team would sign him next season.



Let’s just hope this is posturing by the Bush camp, trying to increase the pressure as camp approaches. Hold out, that’s fine. Make your point. Sitting out the entire season is ridiculous and in my mind, would hurt both sides for a long time.

Coming from a guy who wouldn't sign an autograph for a 6 year old boy with pen in hand........ this does not surprise me.
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Old 07-25-2006, 09:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by patdog
Look, Bush will sign, the Saints can't pay him more money then Mario it's just the way it is, everything is slotted. And to change that will change the way teams draft forever.
Well it's not exactly as cut and dried as "it's slotted." Take a look at the top 4 contract from last year:

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...ingchart05.htm

While Brown's, Edwards', and Benson's contracts are each 5 years, they each have a different total value (#3 having the largest) and a different guarantee (with #3 and #4 being the same). At first glance the only clear separation is between Smith at #1 and the others.

Even the signing bonuses are all over the place. Smith only got $1M while Edwards and Benson each got over $3M.

Another data point is the 2004 draft. Rivers didn't get #1 money even though technically he was swapped for the #1 pick.

The bottom line is that the Saints and the Bush camp are going to have to agree on some basic parameters that are in fact reasonable. My list includes:

1) The contract cannot be substatively more that Mario Williams.
2) It cannot be less that Alex Smith's from last year.
3) It's not going to be a 20% raise like Smith got over Eli Manning. In fact Williams' contract is only 15% raise in total value and 8% raise in guaranteed money. BTW those numbers would be $59M total with $29M in guaranteed money. Both excees the Williams' contract.

Truthfully somewhere between 10% to 12% increase over Smith's contract would be in the right ballpark. 10% would be $55M with $22M in guaranteed money. The Saints can sweeten it by making $6-8M a signing bonus, which Williams didn't get at all. Reggie walks away from the table with another $7-9M in his pocket, and the slot as it were still fits.

But without Vince Young's contract at the NFL offices, nothing's going to happen. If Reggie signs anything, then Vince's contract comes out as some kind of crazy blockbuster, then he'll look rather foolish.

So we sit and wait. I wonder how he'll work on blitz packages, as that's the toughest thing for a rookie to pick up.

SFIAH

Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO

Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.
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Old 07-25-2006, 10:54 AM   #30
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Well, Braylon signed before Brown and Benson, whose holdouts probably took something off their contracts. Braylon's contract is also "up to" 40 mil, it could also be way less if he doesn't reach the "up to" figures. And in Benson's case, the hold out defintiely effected his contract negotiation, because he held out until around the last week of the pre-season. And Benson and the Bears were kinda against the wall in getting something done, so the Bears had to cave a little. Brown got a tad bit more guaranteed than Braylon though, so his camp prob felt that was good enough to not haggle over the fact Braylon possibly got more total money, if he reaches his incentives.

Also, the thing about signing bonuses is, they don't mean much. It's just another way to say guaranteed money that effects how it is handled on the cap. The most important factor in any contract is the guaranteed money. So even Mario Williams contract, with no signing bonus, is a great contract, cause he got 24 mil guaranteed. So he is getting that regardless to whether he guts hurt, cut, busts, whatever.

And on Phillip Rivers, he was drafted at 4, so no matter where he was traded, being drafted at 4 should never earn him #1 money, and it didn't. Technically doesn't matter when you are talking about millions of dollars.

I say that to say, as the #2 pick, he can not make more than Mario Williams. That's just BS. He was the #2 pick. If they wanna give him a 53 million dollar contract with 23 mil guaranteed, go for it. That's just a mil off what Mario got all around. But they can not pay him more. I would even have a slight problem with them giving him the same thing, but if it came down to it, I could live with it. It means a lot to have him here and playing, so it would be justified. Just not more. No way, no how. All world prospect or not.
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