BillyCarpenter1

WhoDat,

After the past couple of years that Warner had, how can you possibly say he is a great manager of the game. In your book that I read on \" HOW TO BE A LEADER\" , it said that a leaders job is to distribute the ball and not try to win the game.

Warner tried to carry that team the last couple of years all by himself. The guy tried to make something out of nothing on every play last year. The guy made more mistakes than O.J. Simpson, trying to clean up a murder scene.

You also said a leaders job is not to score points. When Warner was in his hey day, he was the mad bomber.

You need to come out with your second version of \" HOW TO BE A LEADER\" BOOK.

Oh, and I\'ve been smoking pack after pack of KNOWLEDGE. I\'ll send you a pack over.

WhoDat

Really... did you get that \"knowledge\" off a guy selling it on the street in the french quarter? B/c that\'s the funniest \"knowledge\" I\'ve ever seen... let\'s take a look shall we?

Kurt Warner\'s stats for the last four years.

YEAR TEAM G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 16 499 325 65.1 4353 8.7 75t 41 13 109.2
2000 St. Louis Rams 11 11 347 235 67.7 3429 9.9 85t 21 18 98.3
2001 St. Louis Rams 16 16 546 375 68.7 4830 8.8 65t 36 22 101.4
2002 St. Louis Rams 7 6 220 144 65.5 1431 6.5 43 3 11 67.4

We\'re going to throw out last year b/c I\'ve already admitted it was a bad year... and besides he was out most of the year with injuries. So between 1999 and 2001 Kurt Warner averaged 4,204 yards, nearly 33 TDs, and 17 INTs... more importantly HIS COMPLETION PERCENTAGE AVERAGES OUT TO OVER 67% AND HIS QB RATING IS NEARLY 103!!!!

If you believe a guy who has an AVERAGE completion percentage and QB rating of 67% and 103 over 43 games in three years is inefficient or a poor manager, then you don\'t understand football... especially considering the guy has been injured consistently since 2000 when he only played in 11 games and still had numbers better than Brooks!!!!

You\'re right though Billy... \"guy made more mistakes than O.J. Simpson, trying to clean up a murder scene\". Good call...

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

lumm0x

In defense of the Rams (oh god what I am doing), they have had an enormous amount of missed games by starters. To a degree that no team recovers in one year. Kurt Warner is a better student of the game than Brooks. Warner does not have anywhere near the athletic ability of Aaron Brooks, and it just so happens that Vermeil/Martz offense is very QB friendly in terms of amassing stats. One thing that Warner hasn\'t done is be durable and play through pain. A great player not only plays through pain, but uses the pain as a focus to be better. Example, Deuce in the Tampa Bay game-modern, Kellen Winslow in that marathon vs. the Dolphins. When Warner returns from injury he looks really shaky. Three hand injuries that have kept him out of alot of games. He did compile probably one of the best three seasons by a QB though( SB, 2-MVP\'s, stats, etc.). He\'s had one bad year, made worse by injuries to the whole team and himself, and the psychotic degradation of their \"life by a string\" coach. He did try to make up ground too fast coming off injury and was probably rushing himself back (my speculation) because of Bulger\'s play. If he did rush back then that is not indicative of a leader as it would be team first, but it is indicative of a competitor. Warner is passionate, something that I can\'t say about Brooks. I don\'t think I\'ve ever seen him play with passion, save that first 49er game.
Warner was simply executing game plan and throwing the plays Martz called the prior three seasons. His goal on every throw is a TD, but if any QB wouldn\'t say that then he\'s a punter. He wasn\'t chucking the ball up into the endzone every time just to get TD\'s, but those crossing routes against the zone were well executed and just went for alot of TD\'s. The Rams have great downfield blocking for one thing.

What the hell was I talking about anyways?

BillyCarpenter1

Whodat,

You said a leader shouldn\'t make mistakes. In 2001 he threw for 36 touchdowns and 22ints. Let me count how many mistakes he made. OH IT WAS 22.


In 2002 he didn\'t play that many games, although he did play when his thumb was hurt and didn\'t want to come out of the game. I remember someone telling me Brooks wasn\'t a leader because he wouldn\'t come out of the game when he was hurt. OH YEAH, THAT WAS YOU. Anyway, the short time he was in there, he made 11 BIG OLE\' MISTAKES, and led his team out of the playoffs.

Now, let me finish this for once and all. You say Brooks is not a leader based on his first 3 years of play in the NFL. Your defiining factor for a leader is completion percentage. You claim that we need to get rid of Books and get a leader like Trent Dilfer (OH MY GOD!!)

Based on your theory, you would have said the samething about John Elway based on his stats I have listed below? OF COURSE NOT.

Because you have a keen sense for what it takes to be a NFL quarterback and you would have known that those were only growing pains and the mistakes would be corrected (i.e., throwing into coverage, scrambling when you should have stayed in the pocket, etc.)

Yes, if you would have been John Elways coach at the begining of his carear, you would have cut him and signed Steve Deburg, who was a great manger of the game, it kept him in the league for many years. But you would have deprived John Elway from getting to the HALL OF FAME, with your thinking.

But I would have let him develop and correct his mistakes. Sure I would have had to put up with the media and fans like WhoDat screaming for me to get rid of Elway. I would not have and what Elway went on to do is my favorite subject...........HISTORY !!!!

John Elway first 3-years.

1985 DEN 16 327 605 3891 54.0 22 23 70.2
1984 DEN 15 214 380 2598 56.3 18 15 76.8
1983 DEN 11 123 259 1663 47.5 7 14 54.9

Oh, and I know you are going to need to save face and say he didn\'t have the talent like Brooks has around him.

To you, I say the Broncos went to the playoffs with Elway as a rookie starter and lost in the first round. Sounds like another QB I know........Aaron Brooks....And a true leader should know what talent he does and does not have, and utilize the talent he does have.

John Elway is the best leader I can think of in the NFl (see The DRIVE) and if you were to call him and ask him if he made the some of the same mistakes Brooks had, I\'m sure he\'s be glad to tell you that he did.

Now, put that in your pipe and smoke away !!!!!!!










[Edited on 17/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 17/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

ScottyRo

Leadership is not something you can define with stats. Would anyone say that while the Broncos were going 5-11 in the early \'90\'s that Elway was any less of leader than he had been when he took them to the SuperBowl? Of course, not. He may have become a better leader over the years which helped him win the SuperBowl, but I doubt that is true either.

Brooks\' leadership is not awe inspiring because he has yet to distance himself from and put himself above his teammates. He wants to be one of the boys and until he realizes that a QB is semi-management or quasi-management, he will struggle in this area.

Brooks has proven that he is capable of playing QB in the NFL with a great deal of success. His detractors want to ignore all the times when he came through in the clutch or when he did only that which was expected of him. Brooks led the Saints to a 6-2 record in the first half of last season. He also led them to the 3-5 record in the second half. It\'s not about talent.

Brooks\' main problem is the same problem I see in Haslet, McCarthy and Venturi: Adaptation. When things change or situations become adverse, our coaches haven\'t been able to meet those changes. McCarthy and Venturi could not adapt their schemes. Haslet can\'t seem to keep the team focused.

I\'m not saying Brooks doesn\'t have any faults but to say you\'d rather have a QB like Dilfer is insane. In Dilfer\'s best year he threw 21 TD\'s to 12 Int\'s. That was with the Bucs. When he won the SuperBowl with the Ravens, he was something like 11/10 (TD/Int) in 10 starts. It\'s easy to give him credit for being mature and for managing the games because he won games without great stats, but I say it\'s easy to win when a team\'s Defense keeps other teams from scoring as well as the Ravens did - not to mention in some situations that defense would score more points than the opposition\'s offense.

Who have we missed getting that is betterfor us than Brooks? I can only think of Brian Greise at this moment, but he lacks leadership as well.

[Edited on 17/6/2003 by ScottyRo]

[Edited on 17/6/2003 by ScottyRo]

BillyCarpenter1

ScottyRo,


You make some very good points. BUT, You asked the question would anyone say that while the Broncos were going 5-11 in the early 90\'s that Elway was any less of a leader than his superbowl years. Elway started in 83\' and YES, I think many people questioned his leadership skills(except for WhoDat) in his first 3-years and every other QB in their first 3-years (with the exception of a very few.)

Also, you can\'t just throw stats out the window. They are a reflection of the improvment a QB makes. While Brook\'s stats have gone up and down, this year I think you will see an improvement, if history is any indicator.







[Edited on 17/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

ScottyRo

I was referring to his 80\'s SuperBowl trips, not the 90\'s when I mentioned the 5-11 seasons. Elway led the Broncos to the SuperBowl, then a couple years later they stunk. It wasn\'t because he was less of a leader while they stunk, the surrounding cast was less talented.

I don\'t think any of us are leadership guru\'s, btw, so understand that I am only talking about it in terms of how it might be.

Because Elway was such a good leader, he had the ability to lift a team\'s performance up a bit. He\'d make a bad team good and a good team great. I\'d like to see Aaron develop into that type of leader. Right now, I think the team\'s psyche affects Aaron more than his affects the team. I know, however, that you can\'t learn to be a leader. But you can learn to enhance your God-given ability.

If he can\'t do that, then we\'re in trouble as far as going all the way because I still don\'t know who we could get that could replace him and play more effectively.

BillyCarpenter1

ScottyRo,

Don\'t you think the fans and media were questioning Elway\'s leadership skills in his first 3-years, when he was stinking it up?

BlackandBlue

Speculation won\'t win you any arguments. You\'re probably right in assuming that there were some calling for Elway\'s head, but it\'s still speculative.

BillyCarpenter1

Hm..........I wonder if I can call some Denver newspapers and get some articles from Elways first 3-years. Can you help a brother out????????