Deuce

Euphoria · 09-18-2007, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by FrenzyFan

Why, yes, I am certain we all know how to read and have been doing so for most of our lives. Thank you for asking.

I disagree with your opinion, however. The defense has not underperformed to the same level as the offense has underperformed. The comparison between the two ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME GALAXY. Everyone knows our defense is not good, it's a scheme defense that depends upon the offense's play. Fix the offense, our REAL problem and not a convenient goat to blame it on, and the defense will be fine.

Well you are wrong. When your D is effective you have more options on Offense to run the ball with Deuce. If you want to run run run Deuce you're D has to be effective.

How many points Tampa scored against us... TAMPA. We made Tampa look like the Colts. Yeah our offense isn't doing its job but fixing it with running Deuce isn't the answer unless your D can hold opponets to at least 17. Tampa HELL-FREAKIN-O! Tampa!

Hell if Tampa can score 24 points against you you deserve to lose.

Papa Voodoo · 09-18-2007, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by ScottyRo

The point isn't what should we be doing when we're down by 21 in the fourth it is why are we getting down so quickly. The answer is two-fold:

1. This defense may be worse than last year in every phase save the D-Line. I think the LB's are OK except for that big whole in the middle named Simoneau. I'm sorry, but he is out of position too often and when he's there to make a tackle he gets dragged 3 or 4 yards unless he has help. The DB's have not jelled. You can forget the Indy game cuz Peyton can torch even the best DB's. They were a little better against TB, but not much. Forget turnovers. I'd just like to see a few passes defensed each game right now.

Even still they are getting no help from the offense...

2. They seem to be running the ball OK. Passing has been horrible. Drew seems a bit off, but I think that is attributable more to the O-line looking more like I thought they'd look last year than a unit that has played together for a year already.

Nevertheless, I think the biggest problem has been our formations. Last year, 70 to 80% of the plays involved Reggie or someone else in motion behind the line of scrimmage many times as a decoy to Deuce's runs, but also to work on match ups. They don't seem to do that much this year and I think that is making them easier to stop. The opposing defense seems to have a better idea of where the ball is going and has plenty of people there.

My suggestion is to scrap this year's playbook and return to what was working last year. There has been a philosophy change that is killing us on offense.

On NFL Primetime last night our woes were discussed throughout the evening by the likes of Bill Parcels, Mike Ditka, K. Johnson, and M. Schlereth.

Ditka said Reggie needs to quit dancing and go to which Schlereth said he needs to stop trying to bust every run outside for a TD and take 2 yard agins in the middle.

Ditka also said You can't tell the O-Line to pass block 45-50 times a game. Schlereth agreed that he could never do that and he ain't no joke. They also mentioned it hurts the O-Line becuase they can't get nasty and run block. They went further to say that when things aren't going right you run the ball and knock the other team in the mouth.

Ditka, Schlereth, Hodge, and Johnson all agreed that we have to run Deuce a lot more. Quit being so cerebral and hit somebody. Hodge said that the Defense will play better if the O gets it going with Deuce.

Parcells said Deuce is important, but that our secondary is crap and there's no depth.

So, The Pro-Deuce fans are right and the Pro-Our Secondary Wears Miniskirts fans are right. We're not going to get Champ Bailey any time soon so I say sub KK for Bullocks. Sub Simmons for Simoneau, and sub Usama for David. Then Run Deuce like a Mack Truck!

WhoDat205 · 09-18-2007, 12:48 PM

On the secondary and LBs: we all know they're week...like worst in the NFL week. I really think the team needs to refuse to give up the deep balls. Play two deep zones and the like and force teams to beat you with the run. Trying to Man up on the outside and send LBs to blitz doesn't work because the LBs and the CBs are...uhh...not good at football (except Fuji, who couldn't cover me up the seam and MM who is eligable for Medicare next month).

Now that means that the DL has to step up and stop the run at the point of attack, B/C the LBs are not getting it done. Thankfully, I believe the talent is there on the line...even at DT.

ScottyRo · 09-18-2007, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Papa Voodoo

Ditka also said You can't tell the O-Line to pass block 45-50 times a game. Schlereth agreed that he could never do that and he ain't no joke. They also mentioned it hurts the O-Line becuase they can't get nasty and run block. They went further to say that when things aren't going right you run the ball and knock the other team in the mouth.

I agree with lots of what you posted , but to this I have an exception. Sure, 40 or 50 pass blocks a game may be too much, but what does that have to do with their lack of pass blocking ability in the first quarter or first half? It's not like they look worse as the game goes on. They look bad from play one.

I'll be very interested in seeing how the cowboys do down the stretch this year. They went through what everyone was calling "Camp Cupcake", but seem to be on fire so far. Our guys have looked slow and worn out so far. Maybe the days of killing our guys in the intense heat of summer during training camp should be put to bed forever. It seems t me that practicing during training camp indoors shouldn't hurt us any since in more than half the games each year we play inside anyway.

saintsfan1976 · 09-18-2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by FrenzyFan

Why, yes, I am certain we all know how to read and have been doing so for most of our lives. Thank you for asking.

I disagree with your opinion, however. The defense has not underperformed to the same level as the offense has underperformed. The comparison between the two ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME GALAXY. Everyone knows our defense is not good, it's a scheme defense that depends upon the offense's play. Fix the offense, our REAL problem and not a convenient goat to blame it on, and the defense will be fine.

I respectfully disagree..... Have you watched the way J David lines up? His technique is bad, his coverage is bad... There is very little pressure coming from W Smith and C Grant on the ends, almost no safety help (again).

IMHO, the offense is off due to the O Line....The D is off because of 11 players.....Hey let's just say that they are both equally sucky

Euphoria · 09-18-2007, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

I respectfully disagree..... Have you watched the way J David lines up? His technique is bad, his coverage is bad... There is very little pressure coming from W Smith and C Grant on the ends, almost no safety help (again).

IMHO, the offense is off due to the O Line....The D is off because of 11 players.....Hey let's just say that they are both equally sucky

I don't think anyone is arguing the point that both units sucked so far but one sets up the other. The D is far more horrific. If you can slow down a team then the Saints can play the numbers and run more but when they fall behind so much they can't keep running the ball. They are forced to open it up and they take away our deep stuff which makes it more difficult for us.

FrenzyFan · 09-18-2007, 03:34 PM

Respectfully, I don't think I am "wrong." I think I have a different opinion than yours, and I am comfortable enough in my football knowledge that I don't have act defensively in defending it.

I agree when you say that one set's up the other. However, I don't think anyone would expect our defense to set up our offense, at least not prior to the start of this season. On the contrary, I think everyone believed the opposite would be true - that the play of our offense would keep our defense off the field and force the other team to play from behind. In my opinion, the offense is what has let us down. The defense is what it is, a scheme defense that depends upon being set up by our supposedly explosive offense. Perhaps they've underperformed. I'm not sure, though, because it's hard to gauge the performance of the defense when the other half of the football team doesn't even show up. The offense has underperformed far more and if I have to identify a key problem with the team in that scenerio, it's not the defense.

To put it another way, if a turtle and a hare have a race. We are not surprised when the turtle loses, after all he is the slow one (lacks ability in the speed department and everyone knows it). On the other hand, if the hare loses....you have to wonder what's wrong with that rabbit.

SapperSaint · 09-18-2007, 04:01 PM

Here is what I think Euph is trying to say....

On offense you take the lead by air, you keep it by running.

Our defense has not been able to stop the opposing team by air or ground.

If you are down by two or more TD's.....running the ball only runs the clock out.

Our offense and defense need to step up....equally.

Euphoria · 09-18-2007, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by FrenzyFan

Respectfully, I don't think I am "wrong." I think I have a different opinion than yours, and I am comfortable enough in my football knowledge that I don't have act defensively in defending it.

I agree when you say that one set's up the other. However, I don't think anyone would expect our defense to set up our offense, at least not prior to the start of this season. On the contrary, I think everyone believed the opposite would be true - that the play of our offense would keep our defense off the field and force the other team to play from behind. In my opinion, the offense is what has let us down. The defense is what it is, a scheme defense that depends upon being set up by our supposedly explosive offense. Perhaps they've underperformed. I'm not sure, though, because it's hard to gauge the performance of the defense when the other half of the football team doesn't even show up. The offense has underperformed far more and if I have to identify a key problem with the team in that scenerio, it's not the defense.

To put it another way, if a turtle and a hare have a race. We are not surprised when the turtle loses, after all he is the slow one (lacks ability in the speed department and everyone knows it). On the other hand, if the hare loses....you have to wonder what's wrong with that rabbit.

No what you and others think should happen is our offense should out score the opposing team and forget the D. Ya need both. Are you aware how many points they have given up this year already?

If our Defense can keep the opponets close in a game we have a lot more options on offense, that includes running Deuce 30 times if they don't come up and stop the run. To keep them honest we can then throw a few passes around. When the opponets score 30 plus points on you that limits what we can do on offense. We have to throw more. Running Deuce is going to eat up the clock and only help the opponets win the game. SO the Colts for instance took out our deep passing attack and scored heavy on us. We can't come back as fast - forced to take the short stuff.

The key to beating the Saints... THROW and take away the Saints passing game. Look it up... its how we lost 2 games now.

WillMacKenzie · 09-18-2007, 04:41 PM

Ok let's simplify this.

run, run, pass. 1st down

run, run, pass. 1st down

run, run, play action pass. Touchdown. 9 minute drive. everyone's happy.

Current Saints playcalling:

run(fumble). Turnover

screen pass, screen pass, RB draw. Punt

run, incomplete pass, screen pass. Punt

run(fumble). Turnover

Now you want OUR defense...much LESS a Ravens defense...to defend an NFL offense for DOUBLE the possessions they should be having to defend. Unrealistic.

09-18-2007, 12:22 PM	#11
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Deuce Originally Posted by FrenzyFan Why, yes, I am certain we all know how to read and have been doing so for most of our lives. Thank you for asking. I disagree with your opinion, however. The defense has not underperformed to the same level as the offense has underperformed. The comparison between the two ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME GALAXY. Everyone knows our defense is not good, it's a scheme defense that depends upon the offense's play. Fix the offense, our REAL problem and not a convenient goat to blame it on, and the defense will be fine. Well you are wrong. When your D is effective you have more options on Offense to run the ball with Deuce. If you want to run run run Deuce you're D has to be effective. How many points Tampa scored against us... TAMPA. We made Tampa look like the Colts. Yeah our offense isn't doing its job but fixing it with running Deuce isn't the answer unless your D can hold opponets to at least 17. Tampa HELL-FREAKIN-O! Tampa! Hell if Tampa can score 24 points against you you deserve to lose.

09-18-2007, 12:36 PM	#12
Papa Voodoo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,633	Re: Deuce Originally Posted by ScottyRo The point isn't what should we be doing when we're down by 21 in the fourth it is why are we getting down so quickly. The answer is two-fold: 1. This defense may be worse than last year in every phase save the D-Line. I think the LB's are OK except for that big whole in the middle named Simoneau. I'm sorry, but he is out of position too often and when he's there to make a tackle he gets dragged 3 or 4 yards unless he has help. The DB's have not jelled. You can forget the Indy game cuz Peyton can torch even the best DB's. They were a little better against TB, but not much. Forget turnovers. I'd just like to see a few passes defensed each game right now. Even still they are getting no help from the offense... 2. They seem to be running the ball OK. Passing has been horrible. Drew seems a bit off, but I think that is attributable more to the O-line looking more like I thought they'd look last year than a unit that has played together for a year already. Nevertheless, I think the biggest problem has been our formations. Last year, 70 to 80% of the plays involved Reggie or someone else in motion behind the line of scrimmage many times as a decoy to Deuce's runs, but also to work on match ups. They don't seem to do that much this year and I think that is making them easier to stop. The opposing defense seems to have a better idea of where the ball is going and has plenty of people there. My suggestion is to scrap this year's playbook and return to what was working last year. There has been a philosophy change that is killing us on offense. On NFL Primetime last night our woes were discussed throughout the evening by the likes of Bill Parcels, Mike Ditka, K. Johnson, and M. Schlereth. Ditka said Reggie needs to quit dancing and go to which Schlereth said he needs to stop trying to bust every run outside for a TD and take 2 yard agins in the middle. Ditka also said You can't tell the O-Line to pass block 45-50 times a game. Schlereth agreed that he could never do that and he ain't no joke. They also mentioned it hurts the O-Line becuase they can't get nasty and run block. They went further to say that when things aren't going right you run the ball and knock the other team in the mouth. Ditka, Schlereth, Hodge, and Johnson all agreed that we have to run Deuce a lot more. Quit being so cerebral and hit somebody. Hodge said that the Defense will play better if the O gets it going with Deuce. Parcells said Deuce is important, but that our secondary is crap and there's no depth. So, The Pro-Deuce fans are right and the Pro-Our Secondary Wears Miniskirts fans are right. We're not going to get Champ Bailey any time soon so I say sub KK for Bullocks. Sub Simmons for Simoneau, and sub Usama for David. Then Run Deuce like a Mack Truck!

09-18-2007, 12:48 PM	#13
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Deuce On the secondary and LBs: we all know they're week...like worst in the NFL week. I really think the team needs to refuse to give up the deep balls. Play two deep zones and the like and force teams to beat you with the run. Trying to Man up on the outside and send LBs to blitz doesn't work because the LBs and the CBs are...uhh...not good at football (except Fuji, who couldn't cover me up the seam and MM who is eligable for Medicare next month). Now that means that the DL has to step up and stop the run at the point of attack, B/C the LBs are not getting it done. Thankfully, I believe the talent is there on the line...even at DT.
	"defence's personal to allwats double team or watch is over, that one reason why the saints or not any good." - Vador101

09-18-2007, 12:49 PM	#14
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Re: Deuce Originally Posted by Papa Voodoo Ditka also said You can't tell the O-Line to pass block 45-50 times a game. Schlereth agreed that he could never do that and he ain't no joke. They also mentioned it hurts the O-Line becuase they can't get nasty and run block. They went further to say that when things aren't going right you run the ball and knock the other team in the mouth. I agree with lots of what you posted , but to this I have an exception. Sure, 40 or 50 pass blocks a game may be too much, but what does that have to do with their lack of pass blocking ability in the first quarter or first half? It's not like they look worse as the game goes on. They look bad from play one. I'll be very interested in seeing how the cowboys do down the stretch this year. They went through what everyone was calling "Camp Cupcake", but seem to be on fire so far. Our guys have looked slow and worn out so far. Maybe the days of killing our guys in the intense heat of summer during training camp should be put to bed forever. It seems t me that practicing during training camp indoors shouldn't hurt us any since in more than half the games each year we play inside anyway.

09-18-2007, 01:55 PM	#15
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,806 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Deuce Originally Posted by FrenzyFan Why, yes, I am certain we all know how to read and have been doing so for most of our lives. Thank you for asking. I disagree with your opinion, however. The defense has not underperformed to the same level as the offense has underperformed. The comparison between the two ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME GALAXY. Everyone knows our defense is not good, it's a scheme defense that depends upon the offense's play. Fix the offense, our REAL problem and not a convenient goat to blame it on, and the defense will be fine. I respectfully disagree..... Have you watched the way J David lines up? His technique is bad, his coverage is bad... There is very little pressure coming from W Smith and C Grant on the ends, almost no safety help (again). IMHO, the offense is off due to the O Line....The D is off because of 11 players.....Hey let's just say that they are both equally sucky

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09-18-2007, 02:18 PM	#16
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Deuce Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 I respectfully disagree..... Have you watched the way J David lines up? His technique is bad, his coverage is bad... There is very little pressure coming from W Smith and C Grant on the ends, almost no safety help (again). IMHO, the offense is off due to the O Line....The D is off because of 11 players.....Hey let's just say that they are both equally sucky I don't think anyone is arguing the point that both units sucked so far but one sets up the other. The D is far more horrific. If you can slow down a team then the Saints can play the numbers and run more but when they fall behind so much they can't keep running the ball. They are forced to open it up and they take away our deep stuff which makes it more difficult for us.

09-18-2007, 03:34 PM	#17
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Re: Deuce Respectfully, I don't think I am "wrong." I think I have a different opinion than yours, and I am comfortable enough in my football knowledge that I don't have act defensively in defending it. I agree when you say that one set's up the other. However, I don't think anyone would expect our defense to set up our offense, at least not prior to the start of this season. On the contrary, I think everyone believed the opposite would be true - that the play of our offense would keep our defense off the field and force the other team to play from behind. In my opinion, the offense is what has let us down. The defense is what it is, a scheme defense that depends upon being set up by our supposedly explosive offense. Perhaps they've underperformed. I'm not sure, though, because it's hard to gauge the performance of the defense when the other half of the football team doesn't even show up. The offense has underperformed far more and if I have to identify a key problem with the team in that scenerio, it's not the defense. To put it another way, if a turtle and a hare have a race. We are not surprised when the turtle loses, after all he is the slow one (lacks ability in the speed department and everyone knows it). On the other hand, if the hare loses....you have to wonder what's wrong with that rabbit.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

09-18-2007, 04:01 PM	#18
SapperSaint Pink Nightmare Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 3,028 Blog Entries: 7	Re: Deuce Here is what I think Euph is trying to say.... On offense you take the lead by air, you keep it by running. Our defense has not been able to stop the opposing team by air or ground. If you are down by two or more TD's.....running the ball only runs the clock out. Our offense and defense need to step up....equally.

09-18-2007, 04:17 PM	#19
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Deuce Originally Posted by FrenzyFan Respectfully, I don't think I am "wrong." I think I have a different opinion than yours, and I am comfortable enough in my football knowledge that I don't have act defensively in defending it. I agree when you say that one set's up the other. However, I don't think anyone would expect our defense to set up our offense, at least not prior to the start of this season. On the contrary, I think everyone believed the opposite would be true - that the play of our offense would keep our defense off the field and force the other team to play from behind. In my opinion, the offense is what has let us down. The defense is what it is, a scheme defense that depends upon being set up by our supposedly explosive offense. Perhaps they've underperformed. I'm not sure, though, because it's hard to gauge the performance of the defense when the other half of the football team doesn't even show up. The offense has underperformed far more and if I have to identify a key problem with the team in that scenerio, it's not the defense. To put it another way, if a turtle and a hare have a race. We are not surprised when the turtle loses, after all he is the slow one (lacks ability in the speed department and everyone knows it). On the other hand, if the hare loses....you have to wonder what's wrong with that rabbit. No what you and others think should happen is our offense should out score the opposing team and forget the D. Ya need both. Are you aware how many points they have given up this year already? If our Defense can keep the opponets close in a game we have a lot more options on offense, that includes running Deuce 30 times if they don't come up and stop the run. To keep them honest we can then throw a few passes around. When the opponets score 30 plus points on you that limits what we can do on offense. We have to throw more. Running Deuce is going to eat up the clock and only help the opponets win the game. SO the Colts for instance took out our deep passing attack and scored heavy on us. We can't come back as fast - forced to take the short stuff. The key to beating the Saints... THROW and take away the Saints passing game. Look it up... its how we lost 2 games now.

09-18-2007, 04:41 PM	#20
WillMacKenzie 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,627	Re: Deuce Ok let's simplify this. run, run, pass. 1st down run, run, pass. 1st down run, run, play action pass. Touchdown. 9 minute drive. everyone's happy. Current Saints playcalling: run(fumble). Turnover screen pass, screen pass, RB draw. Punt run, incomplete pass, screen pass. Punt run(fumble). Turnover Now you want OUR defense...much LESS a Ravens defense...to defend an NFL offense for DOUBLE the possessions they should be having to defend. Unrealistic.