Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David

Tobias-Reiper · 12-28-2007, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Haps Biggest Fan

What games? I'm opening a discussion. If you don't have anything to add, then, that's fine.

You open a discussion when you present a coherent argument.
Naming 2 players as "evidence" is plain dumb. You can look up ANY team in the NFL over ANY span of years or any given year and you will find draft and FA busts, and more than likely the misses will be more than the hits.

Any team that has more hits that misses over a short span of years and those hits are matched with the right coaching staff, become the so-called dynasties, as in the 70's Steelers, the 80's Whiners, the 90's Cowboys...

But here, off the top of my head, draftees and free agents that range from solid football players to great players to future HoFers, within recent years:
FAs
Brees
Fujita
McKenzie
Carney
Stecker
KK
H. Thomas
Miller
Blake
Dwight Smith
Delhomme
Fontenot
Horn

Draftees
Bush
Deuce
Colston
Karney
Harper
Grant
Smith
Gleason
PT
Bulger
Roaf
Howard
Stallworth
Turley
Neole
Knight
Neal
Fields

... and I'm leaving out a lot of names from the 90's, 80's, and 70's.

Your client better get another lawyer.

LordOfEntropy · 12-28-2007, 09:26 AM

Well, I think the subject of this post is valid discussion, though I know some of you disagree. I don't think it's just griping.

But back to the topic, it's not the the talent evaluation that's bummed me out recently. I know that's a crapshoot. Anyone can flop from the draft, no one's perfect at evaluation. But rather, it's been the positions being targeted, in the order they're being targeted.

Bottom line, I don't care whether Meachem can play or not - he was the wrong position to pick at #1. It was a poor choice. I can't understand how management justifies WR when we're so desperate for talent on the defense.

Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now.

Haps Biggest Fan · 12-28-2007, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

You open a discussion when you present a coherent argument.
Naming 2 players as "evidence" is plain dumb. You can look up ANY team in the NFL over ANY span of years or any given year and you will find draft and FA busts, and more than likely the misses will be more than the hits.

Any team that has more hits that misses over a short span of years and those hits are matched with the right coaching staff, become the so-called dynasties, as in the 70's Steelers, the 80's Whiners, the 90's Cowboys...

But here, off the top of my head, draftees and free agents that range from solid football players to great players to future HoFers, within recent years:
FAs
Brees
Fujita
McKenzie
Carney
Stecker
KK
H. Thomas
Miller
Blake
Dwight Smith
Delhomme
Fontenot
Horn

Draftees
Bush
Deuce
Colston
Karney
Harper
Grant
Smith
Gleason
PT
Bulger
Roaf
Howard
Stallworth
Turley
Neole
Knight
Neal
Fields

... and I'm leaving out a lot of names from the 90's, 80's, and 70's.

Your client better get another lawyer.

OK, Cap. When it comes to evaluating talent for draft picks and FA acquisitions, the Saints aren't any worse than anybody else!! That's your position, and, I respect you for it!

I disagree with your position.

And, the Saints overall W/L record during the last 40 years supports my position.

I don't want to turn this into a Saints-bashing thread or an internet fight with you or anybody else.

I agree, that we have done some great things in the FA and draft areas. Deuce may be remembered as the Greatest Saint of All Time (he has my vote.)

QUESTION TO THE GROUP: WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE SAINTS RECENT IMPROVEMENT IN SCOUTING AND FO TALENT EVALUATION?

More thoughts, please?

Haps Biggest Fan · 12-28-2007, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by LordOfEntropy

Well, I think the subject of this post is valid discussion, though I know some of you disagree. I don't think it's just griping.

But back to the topic, it's not the the talent evaluation that's bummed me out recently. I know that's a crapshoot. Anyone can flop from the draft, no one's perfect at evaluation. But rather, it's been the positions being targeted, in the order they're being targeted.

Bottom line, I don't care whether Meachem can play or not - he was the wrong position to pick at #1. It was a poor choice. I can't understand how management justifies WR when we're so desperate for talent on the defense.

Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now.

You have a great point here . . . you may be absolutely right.

WillMacKenzie · 12-28-2007, 05:45 PM

I present to you MY argument.

Coaching.

Coaching raw talent, and shaping them into competitive NFL players.

All the 40 yard dash times, shuttles, verticle leap, etc. etc. those are all just TOOLS - without a craftsman they're just junk lying around the shed.

I conject that we need to aim for bringing in a proven, big-name student and teacher of the game to coach up our defense. Singletary, Rex Ryan, Jim Johnson, somewhere along those lines, they can coach up any talent.

Eagles, Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Bears, Seahawks, Chargers, Broncos, Ravens, all these teams usually have GOOD defenses year in and year out even with the player turnover they get.

So I ask again, talent vs. coaching?

hagan714 · 12-28-2007, 06:58 PM

Meachem was a value point pick at the time. BPA. No he did not fit a pressing need but he did fill a need. Horn was not going to be on the team and Henderson is not the answer at #2. So at the time he was the pick. Till he hits the field I can not pass judgment. But to this date he still is the BPA at that point. Except for 2 or 3 players that are actually playing he has not proven to be a bad pick.

Haps Biggest Fan · 12-28-2007, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by hagan714

Meachem was a value point pick at the time. BPA. No he did not fit a pressing need but he did fill a need. Horn was not going to be on the team and Henderson is not the answer at #2. So at the time he was the pick. Till he hits the field I can not pass judgment. But to this date he still is the BPA at that point. Except for 2 or 3 players that are actually playing he has not proven to be a bad pick.

True. He is a flop for this season alone.

Everybody wants him to start in and produce in every game next year.

My point is not totally invalid, however. I seriously doubt that the Saints FO expected him to sit out his entire first year when they made him their first pick.

Look, I simply have little confidence in our scouts and our front office. I'm pretty sure that most of us would agree with me on this.

Haps Biggest Fan · 12-28-2007, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie

I present to you MY argument.

Coaching.

Coaching raw talent, and shaping them into competitive NFL players.

All the 40 yard dash times, shuttles, verticle leap, etc. etc. those are all just TOOLS - without a craftsman they're just junk lying around the shed.

I conject that we need to aim for bringing in a proven, big-name student and teacher of the game to coach up our defense. Singletary, Rex Ryan, Jim Johnson, somewhere along those lines, they can coach up any talent.

Eagles, Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Bears, Seahawks, Chargers, Broncos, Ravens, all these teams usually have GOOD defenses year in and year out even with the player turnover they get.

So I ask again, talent vs. coaching?

I like our head football coach. I have no opinion on the OC and DC.

QBREES9 · 12-28-2007, 11:24 PM

Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now.

You're right. They need to do the right thing this draft CB LBand maybe another CB

hagan714 · 12-29-2007, 06:46 AM

I will not argue the point that the saints have in the past two years been building the offense. first you sign Drew to a mega contract coming off a shoulder injury. You better have the line. Then Bush falls into your lap. You really have you hand forced now. So in two years we have turned over the starting and have one remaining player and the depth to lead the NFL in the fewest sacks allowed in both years. Now that coaching and FO work at its finest. But at what cost?
The defense has not really been addressed. The team knows it. It is us the fans that that need a little insight. Thats why so many defensive players have been signed to one year deals over the past two years. They are stop gap measures, thats all. A temp fix till we get started on that side of the ball. Why sign players that you know do not fit your long term plans to long contracts? It just makes the rebuilding process that much longer. This is why I give Gibbs a pass. He is dealing with a situation he has really no control over. He knows the plans and is trying to the best he can with the players he has got. Many are nothing more than top notch backups around the NFL patched together as a starting unit. Now when we start getting those real starter types on the team you all will love the depth the coaches have added for now. I am telling you if you look at this from that angle we have all the bench players we need. One heck of an excellent group of second stringers. Depth will not be an issue. So forget about the second half of that building part. That part has been done. Heck they even got a couple of starters along the way.
But do we now go all out and not finish the job on the offensive side of the ball? We are so close. One to 3 pieces are needed. Thats it. I say finish the job you have started. Will the draft be so one sided? No way. we are almost done.

12-28-2007, 09:16 AM	#11
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Originally Posted by Haps Biggest Fan What games? I'm opening a discussion. If you don't have anything to add, then, that's fine. You open a discussion when you present a coherent argument. Naming 2 players as "evidence" is plain dumb. You can look up ANY team in the NFL over ANY span of years or any given year and you will find draft and FA busts, and more than likely the misses will be more than the hits. Any team that has more hits that misses over a short span of years and those hits are matched with the right coaching staff, become the so-called dynasties, as in the 70's Steelers, the 80's Whiners, the 90's Cowboys... But here, off the top of my head, draftees and free agents that range from solid football players to great players to future HoFers, within recent years: FAs Brees Fujita McKenzie Carney Stecker KK H. Thomas Miller Blake Dwight Smith Delhomme Fontenot Horn Draftees Bush Deuce Colston Karney Harper Grant Smith Gleason PT Bulger Roaf Howard Stallworth Turley Neole Knight Neal Fields ... and I'm leaving out a lot of names from the 90's, 80's, and 70's. Your client better get another lawyer.
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

12-28-2007, 09:26 AM	#12
LordOfEntropy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 1,838	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Well, I think the subject of this post is valid discussion, though I know some of you disagree. I don't think it's just griping. But back to the topic, it's not the the talent evaluation that's bummed me out recently. I know that's a crapshoot. Anyone can flop from the draft, no one's perfect at evaluation. But rather, it's been the positions being targeted, in the order they're being targeted. Bottom line, I don't care whether Meachem can play or not - he was the wrong position to pick at #1. It was a poor choice. I can't understand how management justifies WR when we're so desperate for talent on the defense. Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now.
	can anyone help me id this tune? it goes thwap thwap boom tch boom tch boom tch. Qui a laissez sortir les chiens!

12-28-2007, 04:59 PM	#13
Haps Biggest Fan Fan Since 1967 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 148	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper You open a discussion when you present a coherent argument. Naming 2 players as "evidence" is plain dumb. You can look up ANY team in the NFL over ANY span of years or any given year and you will find draft and FA busts, and more than likely the misses will be more than the hits. Any team that has more hits that misses over a short span of years and those hits are matched with the right coaching staff, become the so-called dynasties, as in the 70's Steelers, the 80's Whiners, the 90's Cowboys... But here, off the top of my head, draftees and free agents that range from solid football players to great players to future HoFers, within recent years: FAs Brees Fujita McKenzie Carney Stecker KK H. Thomas Miller Blake Dwight Smith Delhomme Fontenot Horn Draftees Bush Deuce Colston Karney Harper Grant Smith Gleason PT Bulger Roaf Howard Stallworth Turley Neole Knight Neal Fields ... and I'm leaving out a lot of names from the 90's, 80's, and 70's. Your client better get another lawyer. OK, Cap. When it comes to evaluating talent for draft picks and FA acquisitions, the Saints aren't any worse than anybody else!! That's your position, and, I respect you for it! I disagree with your position. And, the Saints overall W/L record during the last 40 years supports my position. I don't want to turn this into a Saints-bashing thread or an internet fight with you or anybody else. I agree, that we have done some great things in the FA and draft areas. Deuce may be remembered as the Greatest Saint of All Time (he has my vote.) QUESTION TO THE GROUP: WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE SAINTS RECENT IMPROVEMENT IN SCOUTING AND FO TALENT EVALUATION? More thoughts, please?
	GO SAINTS GO!! GO SAINTS GO!! GO SAINTS GO!! -- Al Hirt on the Tulane Stadium PA system loudly cheering for our beloved New Orleans Saints

12-28-2007, 05:01 PM	#14
Haps Biggest Fan Fan Since 1967 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 148	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Originally Posted by LordOfEntropy Well, I think the subject of this post is valid discussion, though I know some of you disagree. I don't think it's just griping. But back to the topic, it's not the the talent evaluation that's bummed me out recently. I know that's a crapshoot. Anyone can flop from the draft, no one's perfect at evaluation. But rather, it's been the positions being targeted, in the order they're being targeted. Bottom line, I don't care whether Meachem can play or not - he was the wrong position to pick at #1. It was a poor choice. I can't understand how management justifies WR when we're so desperate for talent on the defense. Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now. You have a great point here . . . you may be absolutely right.

12-28-2007, 05:45 PM	#15
WillMacKenzie 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,627	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David I present to you MY argument. Coaching. Coaching raw talent, and shaping them into competitive NFL players. All the 40 yard dash times, shuttles, verticle leap, etc. etc. those are all just TOOLS - without a craftsman they're just junk lying around the shed. I conject that we need to aim for bringing in a proven, big-name student and teacher of the game to coach up our defense. Singletary, Rex Ryan, Jim Johnson, somewhere along those lines, they can coach up any talent. Eagles, Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Bears, Seahawks, Chargers, Broncos, Ravens, all these teams usually have GOOD defenses year in and year out even with the player turnover they get. So I ask again, talent vs. coaching?

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12-28-2007, 06:58 PM	#16
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Meachem was a value point pick at the time. BPA. No he did not fit a pressing need but he did fill a need. Horn was not going to be on the team and Henderson is not the answer at #2. So at the time he was the pick. Till he hits the field I can not pass judgment. But to this date he still is the BPA at that point. Except for 2 or 3 players that are actually playing he has not proven to be a bad pick.

12-28-2007, 10:05 PM	#17
Haps Biggest Fan Fan Since 1967 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 148	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Originally Posted by hagan714 Meachem was a value point pick at the time. BPA. No he did not fit a pressing need but he did fill a need. Horn was not going to be on the team and Henderson is not the answer at #2. So at the time he was the pick. Till he hits the field I can not pass judgment. But to this date he still is the BPA at that point. Except for 2 or 3 players that are actually playing he has not proven to be a bad pick. True. He is a flop for this season alone. Everybody wants him to start in and produce in every game next year. My point is not totally invalid, however. I seriously doubt that the Saints FO expected him to sit out his entire first year when they made him their first pick. Look, I simply have little confidence in our scouts and our front office. I'm pretty sure that most of us would agree with me on this.

12-28-2007, 10:07 PM	#18
Haps Biggest Fan Fan Since 1967 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 148	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie I present to you MY argument. Coaching. Coaching raw talent, and shaping them into competitive NFL players. All the 40 yard dash times, shuttles, verticle leap, etc. etc. those are all just TOOLS - without a craftsman they're just junk lying around the shed. I conject that we need to aim for bringing in a proven, big-name student and teacher of the game to coach up our defense. Singletary, Rex Ryan, Jim Johnson, somewhere along those lines, they can coach up any talent. Eagles, Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Bears, Seahawks, Chargers, Broncos, Ravens, all these teams usually have GOOD defenses year in and year out even with the player turnover they get. So I ask again, talent vs. coaching? I like our head football coach. I have no opinion on the OC and DC.

12-28-2007, 11:24 PM	#19
QBREES9 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Haven Ct Posts: 23,985	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now. You're right. They need to do the right thing this draft CB LBand maybe another CB

12-29-2007, 06:46 AM	#20
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David I will not argue the point that the saints have in the past two years been building the offense. first you sign Drew to a mega contract coming off a shoulder injury. You better have the line. Then Bush falls into your lap. You really have you hand forced now. So in two years we have turned over the starting and have one remaining player and the depth to lead the NFL in the fewest sacks allowed in both years. Now that coaching and FO work at its finest. But at what cost? The defense has not really been addressed. The team knows it. It is us the fans that that need a little insight. Thats why so many defensive players have been signed to one year deals over the past two years. They are stop gap measures, thats all. A temp fix till we get started on that side of the ball. Why sign players that you know do not fit your long term plans to long contracts? It just makes the rebuilding process that much longer. This is why I give Gibbs a pass. He is dealing with a situation he has really no control over. He knows the plans and is trying to the best he can with the players he has got. Many are nothing more than top notch backups around the NFL patched together as a starting unit. Now when we start getting those real starter types on the team you all will love the depth the coaches have added for now. I am telling you if you look at this from that angle we have all the bench players we need. One heck of an excellent group of second stringers. Depth will not be an issue. So forget about the second half of that building part. That part has been done. Heck they even got a couple of starters along the way. But do we now go all out and not finish the job on the offensive side of the ball? We are so close. One to 3 pieces are needed. Thats it. I say finish the job you have started. Will the draft be so one sided? No way. we are almost done.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins