Saints Offer J. Brown for #2 update on pg 19!!!

rjakapeanut · 04-17-2008, 05:01 PM

Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner.

Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season.

Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB.

I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.

Euphoria · 04-17-2008, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by ScottyRo

First, you couldn't mean anything but offense by saying I don't have a clue so why cower behind the "no offense" phrase? Be a man.

Second, it's funny. I just got through reading ESPN's 50 biggest draft busts articles (it includes Sully, btw - I knew it would). I imagine that for many of those players listed therein that there plenty of homers like yourself that had glowing things to say about those players only to watch them crash and burn in the NFL.

So, before you tell me what I do not have a clue about, dude, try to recognize that I am only expressing MY concerns about this deal based on the real possibility that he could turn out to be a dud. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is at least a possibility.

And hey, thanks for yet another excuse about his play last year. It just goes to show that you, too, know he didn't have a great year.

No I think Dorsey had a great year! Not as great as previous ok but its still a great year by any other DT in the NCAA besides maybe Ellis. Giving up a 2nd for Dorsey is a no brainer... what he will do for our D over all will be night and day. You want CB help you get Dorsey. You want Saftey help you get Dorsey. You want LB help you get Dorsey. Sure winning a national championship is a team deal but you can't tell me he wasn't the anchor of that team.

Euphoria · 04-17-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner.

Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season.

Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB.

I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.

I have to absolutely agree with you 100 percent here. What Dorsey will bring is youth, leadership, and domance on the DL. He will free LB's, Help the CB's maintaining man to man coverage by not giving the opposing teams all day to pass. The Safties can stand around all they want then hell they'll be able to blitz as well and get to the QB while Dorsey takes on 2-3-4 OLinemen. Ok stretch with 4 but they will all be watching that young man.

Euphoria · 04-17-2008, 05:21 PM

Besides whats the worse that can happen to us drafting Dorsey??? we make the playoffs.

This also becomes a positive political move in the state of Louisiana. It wasn't that long ago we debated law makers in Baton Rouge over keeping the Saints in NO and how they treated New Oleans Saints compared to LSU Football. It'll start to build a bridge, keeping their alumni close to home so they can watch them and root for the home team for a change.

Its been awhile since I have been home but I know there are a lot of LSU fans don't care much for the Saints, which I don't understand but ok.

FrenzyFan · 04-17-2008, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner.

Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season.

Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB.

I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.

Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal.

McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say.

Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities.

Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy.

Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB.

rjakapeanut · 04-17-2008, 08:19 PM

First of all let me thank you for coming out and opening up for this intelligent discussion rather than blasting me for my opinions in the above post. I appreciate good people.

To address McKenzie, he's stated in blogs on myspace that he's wayyy ahead of schedule as far as his recovery, and it's been stated by the coaching staff quite a few times.

I guess we'll agree to disagree about Gay. I think the guy is extremely underrated. I'm not saying he's going to come in and be a great starter for us, but I believe he'll be averages and that is all we really need. Wouldn't you agree that if we take away Jason David last season adn replace him with an average CB we're in the playoffs guaranteed? I certainly believe so. I think I'm being realistic too when I say Gay can be a solid/decent/average starter for our football club.

To touch on Usama, I really don't think there is any chance this guy can possibly be as bad as Jason David is. He's strictly a better athlete than David, by far. Look at his measurables, his combine statistics. He was a rookie last year and for him to touch the field as much as he did I find encouraging. I think he can start for us sometime this year.

Other than Gay my opinions are basically identical to yours, except that I'm hoping things work out in our favor. I can agree with you that theres less risk involved if we just select someone like Keith Rivers in the 1st and grab a DT in the 2nd, I'm willing to gamble here on Dorsey because I see the guy being a constant Pro Bowl type player 10 years running.

Champ Kind · 04-17-2008, 10:18 PM

I have no doubt whatsoever that our front seven are already ten times better than last year, just because Vilma is replacing Simoneau. Our front seven will make our DB's look 5X better. If Morgan isn't available, Shanle can step in or up and play the position he's played for 2 years. If Dorsey or Ellis were here, it would be flat out amazing in my opinion. Heck, why not use our 3rd to bring in Dre Moore or get Okam in the 5th to grow beside Dorsey/Ellis.
The only area of our Offense with need is TE in my opinion, but all of our starters from last year are back (except Faine), and I really think Meachem will be solid this year if not above average.
I say go for either one (Dorsey is my preference, especially if our first and second are all we have to give up)

dasaints26 · 04-18-2008, 12:35 AM

Is homerism a word?
If Dorsey is such a lock for Hall of Fame would trading up to #2 be enough? Surely no team could pass on such a sure-thing. Wont we be gettin into a bidding war when somehow after Dorsey falls to #2 every other team will call the Rams and give away their entire draft for this game changing DT. Maybe 30 other teams didnt see all the LSU games and werent convinced Dorsey single-handedly won the BcS title.
Was Dorsey involved in the 8 fourth down conversions LSU made to beat Florida? How bout all those cute fake fieldgoals they somehow converted? I seem to remember somekinda hail mary pass they used to win a game once too.
Yes he would be an upgrade, yes he would be a big upgrade. I also think Rivers would be an upgrade and yes a big upgrade. I think the talent you could pick up with the #10 and #40 pick is too much to gamble away moving up in the draft.
By the way how is his broken leg? Would he sit out any time for a full recovery? What about surgery?

phatoosdey · 04-18-2008, 12:59 AM

$20 says this debate continues for 9 more days before coming to an abrupt halt

lsutigerfan · 04-18-2008, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by dasaints26

Is homerism a word?
If Dorsey is such a lock for Hall of Fame would trading up to #2 be enough? Surely no team could pass on such a sure-thing. Wont we be gettin into a bidding war when somehow after Dorsey falls to #2 every other team will call the Rams and give away their entire draft for this game changing DT. Maybe 30 other teams didnt see all the LSU games and werent convinced Dorsey single-handedly won the BcS title.
Was Dorsey involved in the 8 fourth down conversions LSU made to beat Florida? How bout all those cute fake fieldgoals they somehow converted? I seem to remember somekinda hail mary pass they used to win a game once too.
Yes he would be an upgrade, yes he would be a big upgrade. I also think Rivers would be an upgrade and yes a big upgrade. I think the talent you could pick up with the #10 and #40 pick is too much to gamble away moving up in the draft.
By the way how is his broken leg? Would he sit out any time for a full recovery? What about surgery?

Sounds like someone is an LSU hater?

04-17-2008, 05:01 PM	#61
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner. Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season. Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB. I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	http://tinyurl.com/24uuaf

04-17-2008, 05:16 PM	#62
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by ScottyRo First, you couldn't mean anything but offense by saying I don't have a clue so why cower behind the "no offense" phrase? Be a man. Second, it's funny. I just got through reading ESPN's 50 biggest draft busts articles (it includes Sully, btw - I knew it would). I imagine that for many of those players listed therein that there plenty of homers like yourself that had glowing things to say about those players only to watch them crash and burn in the NFL. So, before you tell me what I do not have a clue about, dude, try to recognize that I am only expressing MY concerns about this deal based on the real possibility that he could turn out to be a dud. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is at least a possibility. And hey, thanks for yet another excuse about his play last year. It just goes to show that you, too, know he didn't have a great year. No I think Dorsey had a great year! Not as great as previous ok but its still a great year by any other DT in the NCAA besides maybe Ellis. Giving up a 2nd for Dorsey is a no brainer... what he will do for our D over all will be night and day. You want CB help you get Dorsey. You want Saftey help you get Dorsey. You want LB help you get Dorsey. Sure winning a national championship is a team deal but you can't tell me he wasn't the anchor of that team.

04-17-2008, 05:20 PM	#63
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by rjakapeanut Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner. Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season. Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB. I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top. I have to absolutely agree with you 100 percent here. What Dorsey will bring is youth, leadership, and domance on the DL. He will free LB's, Help the CB's maintaining man to man coverage by not giving the opposing teams all day to pass. The Safties can stand around all they want then hell they'll be able to blitz as well and get to the QB while Dorsey takes on 2-3-4 OLinemen. Ok stretch with 4 but they will all be watching that young man.

04-17-2008, 05:21 PM	#64
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Besides whats the worse that can happen to us drafting Dorsey??? we make the playoffs. This also becomes a positive political move in the state of Louisiana. It wasn't that long ago we debated law makers in Baton Rouge over keeping the Saints in NO and how they treated New Oleans Saints compared to LSU Football. It'll start to build a bridge, keeping their alumni close to home so they can watch them and root for the home team for a change. Its been awhile since I have been home but I know there are a lot of LSU fans don't care much for the Saints, which I don't understand but ok.
	E U P H O R I A Last edited by Euphoria; 04-17-2008 at 05:30 PM..

04-17-2008, 07:54 PM	#65
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by rjakapeanut Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner. Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season. Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB. I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top. Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal. McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say. Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities. Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy. Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

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04-17-2008, 08:19 PM	#66
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! First of all let me thank you for coming out and opening up for this intelligent discussion rather than blasting me for my opinions in the above post. I appreciate good people. To address McKenzie, he's stated in blogs on myspace that he's wayyy ahead of schedule as far as his recovery, and it's been stated by the coaching staff quite a few times. I guess we'll agree to disagree about Gay. I think the guy is extremely underrated. I'm not saying he's going to come in and be a great starter for us, but I believe he'll be averages and that is all we really need. Wouldn't you agree that if we take away Jason David last season adn replace him with an average CB we're in the playoffs guaranteed? I certainly believe so. I think I'm being realistic too when I say Gay can be a solid/decent/average starter for our football club. To touch on Usama, I really don't think there is any chance this guy can possibly be as bad as Jason David is. He's strictly a better athlete than David, by far. Look at his measurables, his combine statistics. He was a rookie last year and for him to touch the field as much as he did I find encouraging. I think he can start for us sometime this year. Other than Gay my opinions are basically identical to yours, except that I'm hoping things work out in our favor. I can agree with you that theres less risk involved if we just select someone like Keith Rivers in the 1st and grab a DT in the 2nd, I'm willing to gamble here on Dorsey because I see the guy being a constant Pro Bowl type player 10 years running.
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	http://tinyurl.com/24uuaf

04-17-2008, 10:18 PM	#67
Champ Kind Nachooooooooooo Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Shreveport Posts: 71	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! I have no doubt whatsoever that our front seven are already ten times better than last year, just because Vilma is replacing Simoneau. Our front seven will make our DB's look 5X better. If Morgan isn't available, Shanle can step in or up and play the position he's played for 2 years. If Dorsey or Ellis were here, it would be flat out amazing in my opinion. Heck, why not use our 3rd to bring in Dre Moore or get Okam in the 5th to grow beside Dorsey/Ellis. The only area of our Offense with need is TE in my opinion, but all of our starters from last year are back (except Faine), and I really think Meachem will be solid this year if not above average. I say go for either one (Dorsey is my preference, especially if our first and second are all we have to give up)
	I am the gatekeeper of my destiny, and I will have my glory day in the hot sun.

04-18-2008, 12:35 AM	#68
dasaints26 100th Post Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 167	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Is homerism a word? If Dorsey is such a lock for Hall of Fame would trading up to #2 be enough? Surely no team could pass on such a sure-thing. Wont we be gettin into a bidding war when somehow after Dorsey falls to #2 every other team will call the Rams and give away their entire draft for this game changing DT. Maybe 30 other teams didnt see all the LSU games and werent convinced Dorsey single-handedly won the BcS title. Was Dorsey involved in the 8 fourth down conversions LSU made to beat Florida? How bout all those cute fake fieldgoals they somehow converted? I seem to remember somekinda hail mary pass they used to win a game once too. Yes he would be an upgrade, yes he would be a big upgrade. I also think Rivers would be an upgrade and yes a big upgrade. I think the talent you could pick up with the #10 and #40 pick is too much to gamble away moving up in the draft. By the way how is his broken leg? Would he sit out any time for a full recovery? What about surgery?
dasaints26 100th Post Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 167

04-18-2008, 12:59 AM	#69
phatoosdey Drunkagen Join Date: May 2007 Location: kenner Posts: 356	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! $20 says this debate continues for 9 more days before coming to an abrupt halt
	Last edited by phatoosdey; 04-18-2008 at 01:04 AM..

04-18-2008, 01:39 AM	#70
lsutigerfan 500th Post Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: born And raised in NOLA, now live in Los Angeles Posts: 811	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by dasaints26 Is homerism a word? If Dorsey is such a lock for Hall of Fame would trading up to #2 be enough? Surely no team could pass on such a sure-thing. Wont we be gettin into a bidding war when somehow after Dorsey falls to #2 every other team will call the Rams and give away their entire draft for this game changing DT. Maybe 30 other teams didnt see all the LSU games and werent convinced Dorsey single-handedly won the BcS title. Was Dorsey involved in the 8 fourth down conversions LSU made to beat Florida? How bout all those cute fake fieldgoals they somehow converted? I seem to remember somekinda hail mary pass they used to win a game once too. Yes he would be an upgrade, yes he would be a big upgrade. I also think Rivers would be an upgrade and yes a big upgrade. I think the talent you could pick up with the #10 and #40 pick is too much to gamble away moving up in the draft. By the way how is his broken leg? Would he sit out any time for a full recovery? What about surgery? Sounds like someone is an LSU hater?