Pat Kirwan believes that the..

jewagr007 · 05-01-2008, 01:42 PM

Ok Guys and Gals,

Lets break this down. Johnson and Miller both are classified as balanced/hands TE's not blocking TE's. Miller has better hands and speed where Johnson is a bigger target and runs better routes. While Johnson is better at pass/run blocking than Miller...neither are consistent enough to get the job done in that area. We are not even going to discuss Campbell...moot point. Even though these TE's are considered to be better receivers than blockers they can still be covered by most if not all LB's in the business. This leaves Safeties free to roam to head hunt our receivers.
Shockey on the other hand is a more balanced TE that has decent route running skill, great hands and can block on a more consistent basis than all three of our current TE's. Shockey will draw constant attention up the middle from either strong or free safety and will open up the corner and fade routes down the sidelines. Why do you think Plaxico had some many long TD's this season down the sidelines.
I will concur that Johnson was ranked 11th and Shockey only 8th but you have to look at the whole picture. With our receivers double covered the majority of time leaving LB's to cover Johnson/Miller it is a no brainer for Brees to throw the TE route when he is in man-on-man with a LB. The only problem is is that those passes were being dropped too often or being batted by the LB. Throw Shockey in the mix and that pulls safety help in the middle leaving one-on-one coverage on one of the receivers. Another thing this could force is more defense's to play us in Zone coverage instead of Man-to-Man and this meens less blitzes and softer coverage. We all know what Brees will do with that combination.
I do not believe that the FO would have drafted a TE even if the Shockey trade was completely dead due to the fact that no TE on the board at the round 2 spot would have given them a definite upgrade over Johnson or Miller. You don't draft for position unless it is a need or you can guarantee an upgrade over current players.
This being said I think Shockey would be a good addition but not necessary unless the price is right. You have to remember that he will require a large contract to keep him and there is this little thing called a salary cap that the FO has to deal with also. Will Smith is wanting a contract negotiation and given the choice over paying Shockey or Smith...I'll take Smith any day. Best Offense is a good Defense. Our offense is strong if they can get on the field. The defense could not get off the field last year due to a poor secondary. Fix this hole first...then tweak the rest.

foreverfan · 05-01-2008, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by jewagr007

Ok Guys and Gals,

Lets break this down. Johnson and Miller both are classified as balanced/hands TE's not blocking TE's. Miller has better hands and speed where Johnson is a bigger target and runs better routes. While Johnson is better at pass/run blocking than Miller...neither are consistant enough to get the job done in that area. We are not even going to discuss Campbell...mute point. Even though these TE's are considered to be better receivers than blockers they can still be covered by most if not all LB's in the business. This leaves Safeties free to roam to head hunt our receivers.
Shockey on the other hand is a more balanced TE that has decent route running skill, great hands and can block on a more consistent basis than all three of our current TE's. Shockey will draw constant attention up the middle from either strong or free safety and will open up the corner and fade routes down the sidelines. Why do you think Plaxico had some many long TD's this season down the sidelines.

I will concur that Johnson was ranked 11th and Shockey only 8th but you have to look at the whole picture. With our receivers double covered the majority of time leaving LB's to cover Johnson/Miller it is a no brainer for Brees to throw the TE route when he is in man-on-man with a LB. The only problem is is that those passes where being dropped to often or being batted by the LB. Throw Shockey in the mix and that pulls safety help in the middle leaving one-on-one coverage on one of the receivers. Another thing this could force is more defense's to play us in Zone coverage instead on Man-to-Man and this meens less blitzes and softer coverage. We all know what Brees will do with that combination.
I do not believe that the FO would have drafted a TE even if the Shockey trade was completely dead due to the fact that no TE on the board at the round 2 spot would have given them a definite upgrade over Johnson or Miller. You don't draft for position unless it is a need or you can guarantee an upgrade over current players.
This being said I think Shockey would be a good addition but not necessary unless the price is right. You have to remember that he will require a large contract to keep him and there is this little thing called a salary cap that the FO has to deal with also. Will Smith is wanting a contract negotiation and given the choice over paying Shockey or Smith...I'll take Smith any day. Best Offense is a good Defense. Our offense is strong if they can get on the field. The defense could not get off the field last year due to a poor secondary. Fix this hole first...then tweek the rest.

Welcome abord jewagr007. Great first post. The guys/gals on this board are great.

I agree, Shockey would be a great addition. I don't think we are going to get him though. I would be suprised if he isn't in a Giant uniform this season. Maybe we can trade our RT (Poopcomb msp?) and a 5th for him. That might make since.

iceshack149 · 05-01-2008, 04:30 PM

What's up with all the Mark Campbell hate? He was injured last year, is that why he's an "F" or why he's been dismissed in posts?

The Saints run game was doing poorly before Deuce's injury last year. The difference between the 2006 offense and the 2007 offense was that Campbell wasn't playing. He's no Shockey in terms of talent but I think that Campbell deserves a little credit.

The question is this: how much better do we need to be on Offense to win the big game? If the answer is "not very much" then I don't see a critical need to upgrade at TE. If the answer is "a lot", then an upgrade at TE might be something very important.

I believe that the answer is "not very much". Shockey would be an upgrade but the Saints shouldn't break the bank on him.

thesaintsfan · 05-01-2008, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by iceshack149

What's up with all the Mark Campbell hate? He was injured last year, is that why he's an "F" or why he's been dismissed in posts?

The Saints run game was doing poorly before Deuce's injury last year. The difference between the 2006 offense and the 2007 offense was that Campbell wasn't playing. He's no Shockey in terms of talent but I think that Campbell deserves a little credit.

I believe that the answer is "not very much". Shockey would be an upgrade but the Saints shouldn't break the bank on him.

That's a good point about Campbell. He was hurt last year.

05-01-2008, 01:42 PM	#1
jewagr007 Rookie Join Date: May 2008 Location: Houma, LA Posts: 27	Re: Pat Kirwan believes that the.. Ok Guys and Gals, Lets break this down. Johnson and Miller both are classified as balanced/hands TE's not blocking TE's. Miller has better hands and speed where Johnson is a bigger target and runs better routes. While Johnson is better at pass/run blocking than Miller...neither are consistent enough to get the job done in that area. We are not even going to discuss Campbell...moot point. Even though these TE's are considered to be better receivers than blockers they can still be covered by most if not all LB's in the business. This leaves Safeties free to roam to head hunt our receivers. Shockey on the other hand is a more balanced TE that has decent route running skill, great hands and can block on a more consistent basis than all three of our current TE's. Shockey will draw constant attention up the middle from either strong or free safety and will open up the corner and fade routes down the sidelines. Why do you think Plaxico had some many long TD's this season down the sidelines. I will concur that Johnson was ranked 11th and Shockey only 8th but you have to look at the whole picture. With our receivers double covered the majority of time leaving LB's to cover Johnson/Miller it is a no brainer for Brees to throw the TE route when he is in man-on-man with a LB. The only problem is is that those passes were being dropped too often or being batted by the LB. Throw Shockey in the mix and that pulls safety help in the middle leaving one-on-one coverage on one of the receivers. Another thing this could force is more defense's to play us in Zone coverage instead of Man-to-Man and this meens less blitzes and softer coverage. We all know what Brees will do with that combination. I do not believe that the FO would have drafted a TE even if the Shockey trade was completely dead due to the fact that no TE on the board at the round 2 spot would have given them a definite upgrade over Johnson or Miller. You don't draft for position unless it is a need or you can guarantee an upgrade over current players. This being said I think Shockey would be a good addition but not necessary unless the price is right. You have to remember that he will require a large contract to keep him and there is this little thing called a salary cap that the FO has to deal with also. Will Smith is wanting a contract negotiation and given the choice over paying Shockey or Smith...I'll take Smith any day. Best Offense is a good Defense. Our offense is strong if they can get on the field. The defense could not get off the field last year due to a poor secondary. Fix this hole first...then tweak the rest.
	Last edited by jewagr007; 05-01-2008 at 01:47 PM..

05-01-2008, 01:49 PM	#2
foreverfan 12,000 BS Posts Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metairie, LA Posts: 13,457 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Pat Kirwan believes that the.. Originally Posted by jewagr007 Ok Guys and Gals, Lets break this down. Johnson and Miller both are classified as balanced/hands TE's not blocking TE's. Miller has better hands and speed where Johnson is a bigger target and runs better routes. While Johnson is better at pass/run blocking than Miller...neither are consistant enough to get the job done in that area. We are not even going to discuss Campbell...mute point. Even though these TE's are considered to be better receivers than blockers they can still be covered by most if not all LB's in the business. This leaves Safeties free to roam to head hunt our receivers. Shockey on the other hand is a more balanced TE that has decent route running skill, great hands and can block on a more consistent basis than all three of our current TE's. Shockey will draw constant attention up the middle from either strong or free safety and will open up the corner and fade routes down the sidelines. Why do you think Plaxico had some many long TD's this season down the sidelines. I will concur that Johnson was ranked 11th and Shockey only 8th but you have to look at the whole picture. With our receivers double covered the majority of time leaving LB's to cover Johnson/Miller it is a no brainer for Brees to throw the TE route when he is in man-on-man with a LB. The only problem is is that those passes where being dropped to often or being batted by the LB. Throw Shockey in the mix and that pulls safety help in the middle leaving one-on-one coverage on one of the receivers. Another thing this could force is more defense's to play us in Zone coverage instead on Man-to-Man and this meens less blitzes and softer coverage. We all know what Brees will do with that combination. I do not believe that the FO would have drafted a TE even if the Shockey trade was completely dead due to the fact that no TE on the board at the round 2 spot would have given them a definite upgrade over Johnson or Miller. You don't draft for position unless it is a need or you can guarantee an upgrade over current players. This being said I think Shockey would be a good addition but not necessary unless the price is right. You have to remember that he will require a large contract to keep him and there is this little thing called a salary cap that the FO has to deal with also. Will Smith is wanting a contract negotiation and given the choice over paying Shockey or Smith...I'll take Smith any day. Best Offense is a good Defense. Our offense is strong if they can get on the field. The defense could not get off the field last year due to a poor secondary. Fix this hole first...then tweek the rest. Welcome abord jewagr007. Great first post. The guys/gals on this board are great. I agree, Shockey would be a great addition. I don't think we are going to get him though. I would be suprised if he isn't in a Giant uniform this season. Maybe we can trade our RT (Poopcomb msp?) and a 5th for him. That might make since.

05-01-2008, 04:30 PM	#3
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,368 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Pat Kirwan believes that the.. What's up with all the Mark Campbell hate? He was injured last year, is that why he's an "F" or why he's been dismissed in posts? The Saints run game was doing poorly before Deuce's injury last year. The difference between the 2006 offense and the 2007 offense was that Campbell wasn't playing. He's no Shockey in terms of talent but I think that Campbell deserves a little credit. The question is this: how much better do we need to be on Offense to win the big game? If the answer is "not very much" then I don't see a critical need to upgrade at TE. If the answer is "a lot", then an upgrade at TE might be something very important. I believe that the answer is "not very much". Shockey would be an upgrade but the Saints shouldn't break the bank on him.

05-01-2008, 06:29 PM	#4
thesaintsfan The Real Deal Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 174	Re: Pat Kirwan believes that the.. Originally Posted by iceshack149 What's up with all the Mark Campbell hate? He was injured last year, is that why he's an "F" or why he's been dismissed in posts? The Saints run game was doing poorly before Deuce's injury last year. The difference between the 2006 offense and the 2007 offense was that Campbell wasn't playing. He's no Shockey in terms of talent but I think that Campbell deserves a little credit. I believe that the answer is "not very much". Shockey would be an upgrade but the Saints shouldn't break the bank on him. That's a good point about Campbell. He was hurt last year.