Whats wrong with Brown?

CantonLegend · 05-03-2008, 03:44 PM

i think that definition clarifies the emmit argument too.....he would fall under premiere then wouldnt he?....Walter Payton in my mind is the best running back of all time...Jim brown set the record in less games but he was before his time...walter had the speed and size and altheticism to beat out ne running back of ne time...emmit was consistant week in and week out but was not flashy about it and didnt wow ne body with his talent

CantonLegend · 05-03-2008, 03:48 PM

and....sorry..im kinda rambling.....im not comparing jammal brown to jonnathan ogden or orlando pace....or even willie roaf....but i think he deserves credit for holding down the line....he deserves it for his accomplishments not the criticisms that every player has....hes not perfect but he does his job and he does it well

thesaintsfan · 05-03-2008, 04:29 PM

Dear gandhi,

You act like you're the only one who watches the games. An opinion based on actually being at the games is still just an opinion. I've watched almost every game J.Brown has played and in my opinion he's an above average starter in this league.

I thought your argument for wanting Strief to start over Brown at LT was laughable. "Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years", why does that make him better than Brown. What about what Brown did in college? He was a freaking All American! Since when does being a 3 year starter in college make you better than a proven starter in the NFL. Not only a proven starter but a guy that went to the Pro Bowl. And I don't want to hear the BS about how he only made the Pro Bowl because the Saints had a good season. Why would somebody say that about one of our players? Brown was a beast two years ago and he'll be a beast again this year if he stays healthy. And of course he would be a better RT than LT, who wouldn't? Walter Jones would be unreal at RT!

If you watch so many games then you should know that a RT has fewer responsibilities and more help. You should know that defenses usually line their best pass rushing DE at RE to rush the blind side. A LT has to square off with the other teams best edge rushers every week. Brown starts at LT because we NEED him there. I'm sure the coaches would love to put Brown at RT and let him maul in the running game. If Strief was a better LT than Brown then he would be our starting LT, but he's not and I don't even think it's close.

hagan714 · 05-03-2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

Walter Payton in my mind is the best running back of all time

Agreed. wonder if we could still get some DNA and clone him? I could wait 22 years. SWEETNESS

gandhi1007 · 05-03-2008, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by thesaintsfan

Dear gandhi,

You act like you're the only one who watches the games. An opinion based on actually being at the games is still just an opinion. I've watched almost every game J.Brown has played and in my opinion he's an above average starter in this league.

I thought your argument for wanting Strief to start over Brown at LT was laughable. "Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years", why does that make him better than Brown. What about what Brown did in college? He was a freaking All American! Since when does being a 3 year starter in college make you better than a proven starter in the NFL. Not only a proven starter but a guy that went to the Pro Bowl. And I don't want to hear the BS about how he only made the Pro Bowl because the Saints had a good season. Why would somebody say that about one of our players? Brown was a beast two years ago and he'll be a beast again this year if he stays healthy. And of course he would be a better RT than LT, who wouldn't? Walter Jones would be unreal at RT!

If you watch so many games then you should know that a RT has fewer responsibilities and more help. You should know that defenses usually line their best pass rushing DE at RE to rush the blind side. A LT has to square off with the other teams best edge rushers every week. Brown starts at LT because we NEED him there. I'm sure the coaches would love to put Brown at RT and let him maul in the running game. If Strief was a better LT than Brown then he would be our starting LT, but he's not and I don't even think it's close.

Above average LT, I could agree with. Premiere or elite....HELL NO!!!

Now...1st off, as I said earlier, LT is tougher than RT. Scroll back man. You'll see that I've already established that fact. As for watching the games....did you watch DeMarcus Ware treat Brown like his personal biyatch consistently? Or how about Julius Peppers? Did you see him blow by Brown consistently? I sure did. I also saw a supposed Pro Bowler consistently average more penalties than anyone else on our line for years now (including Evans in his rookie season). How many times have I heard "False Start #70" or "Holding #70" on the loudspeaker in the dome? Brown was an All American. Great! Strief was a 1st team All American & 3-time 1st team All Big TEN OT. I believe that trumps Brown's college career, but that wasn't my point. My point was that everyone is deemed unproven until they actually start for a season.

Now... add all of this to the fact that I saw Strief man-handle two top flight DE's while manning the LT position in Brown's absence, one of which was Julius Peppers (the same guy who consistently beat Brown). Do you know how many sacks Peppers had? 0. How about tackles behind the line? 0. This is just one example. I hate to say this....but if you don't think it's close, we're not watching the same games. I'll also say this....if you really think he deserved that Pro Bowl invite when no one else on that line went, you're out of your mind! Like I said before....he rode the coattails of a winning season into that Pro Bowl.

By the way....a RT does not have any less reponsibilty or more help. He still has a job to do as well. It just so happens that the better DE's are usually lining up against the LT to attack from the blind side.

CantonLegend · 05-03-2008, 07:11 PM

Ware and peppers consistently make everybody look bad....not just brown...and he looked no worse than the rest of the NFC against those 2....no doubt Brown would make a great RT....and i would love for him to be there because that would mean we have a pure beast at LT...strief isnt that guy lol....i actually went back and looked at some films of him from last year...and the only thing i saw was brown making the blocks...keeping his head on a swivel....choppin his feet....and kicking the horse @#%$ outta the ends he went against....maybe i missed something

hagan714 · 05-03-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

Ware and peppers consistently make everybody look bad....

There you just found the standard for the LT position. now can Bushrod be that man? we will find out this year. same goes for Andy. Those two will be on the field. So the test for 2009 starts now

CantonLegend · 05-03-2008, 07:47 PM

i feel dumb for pointing this out....doesnt demarcus ware play for dallas?....im just curious when we played dallas last year?...if u have ne idea let me know..i'd like to find film on it and watch brown get owned....just food for thought...as far as bushrod and alleman go....i was born in akron and most of my friends are goin to akron U so i gotta say im rootin for andy alleman and i'd love to see him make it as a starter for the saints...i hope bushrod comes thru but i think its unlikely that he'll be the guy we need

JKool · 05-03-2008, 08:28 PM

Gandi, thanks for the point about KCs line. That is interesting. I'm not sure that it counts as usual, but it is something to go from.

Fine points about Strief's performance. If he has grown to be better than Brown at LT, then I'm all for giving him a shot - I hope our coaches at least give him a chance to show what he can do (and don't simply consider the LT spot Brown's).

I'll certainly agree that last year wasn't Brown's best, but thankfully the learning curve shallow and the duration of careers at T in the NFL are long. Brown could still get much better. There is also good evidence that he is, in fact, quite good.

I'm a bit confused about the "proven player" arguments. By this reasoning, no new player would ever unseat a starter from the previous year - that is not the case, so "proven player" arguments only get you so far. Brown should be evaluated on his merits (which I think are plenty), but that doesn't mean an "unproven" player, like Strief, couldn't be better suited for the position.

This is an interesting discussion. I think several good points have been made on both sides. Myself, I don't think it much matters how good Brown is (with respect to being elite, or any other name); I'm more interested in understanding whether our coaches are making good decisions in keeping him at LT, rather than moving him over to RT.

gandhi1007 · 05-03-2008, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

i feel dumb for pointing this out....doesnt demarcus ware play for dallas?....im just curious when we played dallas last year?...if u have ne idea let me know..i'd like to find film on it and watch brown get owned....just food for thought...as far as bushrod and alleman go....i was born in akron and most of my friends are goin to akron U so i gotta say im rootin for andy alleman and i'd love to see him make it as a starter for the saints...i hope bushrod comes thru but i think its unlikely that he'll be the guy we need

2006...Go to youtube & look up the Demarcus Ware highlights videos. On one of the videos, there are two plays in particular where Jamaal Brown is the highlight biyatch. One of them, Ware throws Brown on his a** on route to a QB sack (very ugly) & the other one is of Ware blowing by Brown without even getting touched (& it wasn't an offsides either). I was at both those games & believe me....those weren't the only plays in those games that Ware made Brown look pitiful. One was a pre-season game in Shreveport & the other was when we blew Dallas out in Irving. I know Ware is an elite DE (& he really is elite)...no doubt, but Brown still played horribly. I think Brown is very coachable has great finesse, I just don't think he has the physical abilities that Strief has. That's not just about size. Everyone knows Strief is huge, but he is sound in technique as well. Time will tell, but I think Brown only has a year or two left in a Saints uniform. I think we will see come contract time.

05-03-2008, 03:44 PM	#21
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? i think that definition clarifies the emmit argument too.....he would fall under premiere then wouldnt he?....Walter Payton in my mind is the best running back of all time...Jim brown set the record in less games but he was before his time...walter had the speed and size and altheticism to beat out ne running back of ne time...emmit was consistant week in and week out but was not flashy about it and didnt wow ne body with his talent

05-03-2008, 03:48 PM	#22
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? and....sorry..im kinda rambling.....im not comparing jammal brown to jonnathan ogden or orlando pace....or even willie roaf....but i think he deserves credit for holding down the line....he deserves it for his accomplishments not the criticisms that every player has....hes not perfect but he does his job and he does it well

05-03-2008, 04:29 PM	#23
thesaintsfan The Real Deal Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 174	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Dear gandhi, You act like you're the only one who watches the games. An opinion based on actually being at the games is still just an opinion. I've watched almost every game J.Brown has played and in my opinion he's an above average starter in this league. I thought your argument for wanting Strief to start over Brown at LT was laughable. "Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years", why does that make him better than Brown. What about what Brown did in college? He was a freaking All American! Since when does being a 3 year starter in college make you better than a proven starter in the NFL. Not only a proven starter but a guy that went to the Pro Bowl. And I don't want to hear the BS about how he only made the Pro Bowl because the Saints had a good season. Why would somebody say that about one of our players? Brown was a beast two years ago and he'll be a beast again this year if he stays healthy. And of course he would be a better RT than LT, who wouldn't? Walter Jones would be unreal at RT! If you watch so many games then you should know that a RT has fewer responsibilities and more help. You should know that defenses usually line their best pass rushing DE at RE to rush the blind side. A LT has to square off with the other teams best edge rushers every week. Brown starts at LT because we NEED him there. I'm sure the coaches would love to put Brown at RT and let him maul in the running game. If Strief was a better LT than Brown then he would be our starting LT, but he's not and I don't even think it's close.
	We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. Last edited by thesaintsfan; 05-03-2008 at 04:31 PM..

05-03-2008, 05:09 PM	#24
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by CantonLegend Walter Payton in my mind is the best running back of all time Agreed. wonder if we could still get some DNA and clone him? I could wait 22 years. SWEETNESS

05-03-2008, 06:30 PM	#25
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by thesaintsfan Dear gandhi, You act like you're the only one who watches the games. An opinion based on actually being at the games is still just an opinion. I've watched almost every game J.Brown has played and in my opinion he's an above average starter in this league. I thought your argument for wanting Strief to start over Brown at LT was laughable. "Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years", why does that make him better than Brown. What about what Brown did in college? He was a freaking All American! Since when does being a 3 year starter in college make you better than a proven starter in the NFL. Not only a proven starter but a guy that went to the Pro Bowl. And I don't want to hear the BS about how he only made the Pro Bowl because the Saints had a good season. Why would somebody say that about one of our players? Brown was a beast two years ago and he'll be a beast again this year if he stays healthy. And of course he would be a better RT than LT, who wouldn't? Walter Jones would be unreal at RT! If you watch so many games then you should know that a RT has fewer responsibilities and more help. You should know that defenses usually line their best pass rushing DE at RE to rush the blind side. A LT has to square off with the other teams best edge rushers every week. Brown starts at LT because we NEED him there. I'm sure the coaches would love to put Brown at RT and let him maul in the running game. If Strief was a better LT than Brown then he would be our starting LT, but he's not and I don't even think it's close. Above average LT, I could agree with. Premiere or elite....HELL NO!!! Now...1st off, as I said earlier, LT is tougher than RT. Scroll back man. You'll see that I've already established that fact. As for watching the games....did you watch DeMarcus Ware treat Brown like his personal biyatch consistently? Or how about Julius Peppers? Did you see him blow by Brown consistently? I sure did. I also saw a supposed Pro Bowler consistently average more penalties than anyone else on our line for years now (including Evans in his rookie season). How many times have I heard "False Start #70" or "Holding #70" on the loudspeaker in the dome? Brown was an All American. Great! Strief was a 1st team All American & 3-time 1st team All Big TEN OT. I believe that trumps Brown's college career, but that wasn't my point. My point was that everyone is deemed unproven until they actually start for a season. Now... add all of this to the fact that I saw Strief man-handle two top flight DE's while manning the LT position in Brown's absence, one of which was Julius Peppers (the same guy who consistently beat Brown). Do you know how many sacks Peppers had? 0. How about tackles behind the line? 0. This is just one example. I hate to say this....but if you don't think it's close, we're not watching the same games. I'll also say this....if you really think he deserved that Pro Bowl invite when no one else on that line went, you're out of your mind! Like I said before....he rode the coattails of a winning season into that Pro Bowl. By the way....a RT does not have any less reponsibilty or more help. He still has a job to do as well. It just so happens that the better DE's are usually lining up against the LT to attack from the blind side.
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05-03-2008, 07:11 PM	#26
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Ware and peppers consistently make everybody look bad....not just brown...and he looked no worse than the rest of the NFC against those 2....no doubt Brown would make a great RT....and i would love for him to be there because that would mean we have a pure beast at LT...strief isnt that guy lol....i actually went back and looked at some films of him from last year...and the only thing i saw was brown making the blocks...keeping his head on a swivel....choppin his feet....and kicking the horse @#%$ outta the ends he went against....maybe i missed something
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-03-2008, 07:39 PM	#27
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by CantonLegend Ware and peppers consistently make everybody look bad.... There you just found the standard for the LT position. now can Bushrod be that man? we will find out this year. same goes for Andy. Those two will be on the field. So the test for 2009 starts now

05-03-2008, 07:47 PM	#28
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? i feel dumb for pointing this out....doesnt demarcus ware play for dallas?....im just curious when we played dallas last year?...if u have ne idea let me know..i'd like to find film on it and watch brown get owned....just food for thought...as far as bushrod and alleman go....i was born in akron and most of my friends are goin to akron U so i gotta say im rootin for andy alleman and i'd love to see him make it as a starter for the saints...i hope bushrod comes thru but i think its unlikely that he'll be the guy we need
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-03-2008, 08:28 PM	#29
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Gandi, thanks for the point about KCs line. That is interesting. I'm not sure that it counts as usual, but it is something to go from. Fine points about Strief's performance. If he has grown to be better than Brown at LT, then I'm all for giving him a shot - I hope our coaches at least give him a chance to show what he can do (and don't simply consider the LT spot Brown's). I'll certainly agree that last year wasn't Brown's best, but thankfully the learning curve shallow and the duration of careers at T in the NFL are long. Brown could still get much better. There is also good evidence that he is, in fact, quite good. I'm a bit confused about the "proven player" arguments. By this reasoning, no new player would ever unseat a starter from the previous year - that is not the case, so "proven player" arguments only get you so far. Brown should be evaluated on his merits (which I think are plenty), but that doesn't mean an "unproven" player, like Strief, couldn't be better suited for the position. This is an interesting discussion. I think several good points have been made on both sides. Myself, I don't think it much matters how good Brown is (with respect to being elite, or any other name); I'm more interested in understanding whether our coaches are making good decisions in keeping him at LT, rather than moving him over to RT.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-03-2008, 08:53 PM	#30
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by CantonLegend i feel dumb for pointing this out....doesnt demarcus ware play for dallas?....im just curious when we played dallas last year?...if u have ne idea let me know..i'd like to find film on it and watch brown get owned....just food for thought...as far as bushrod and alleman go....i was born in akron and most of my friends are goin to akron U so i gotta say im rootin for andy alleman and i'd love to see him make it as a starter for the saints...i hope bushrod comes thru but i think its unlikely that he'll be the guy we need 2006...Go to youtube & look up the Demarcus Ware highlights videos. On one of the videos, there are two plays in particular where Jamaal Brown is the highlight biyatch. One of them, Ware throws Brown on his a** on route to a QB sack (very ugly) & the other one is of Ware blowing by Brown without even getting touched (& it wasn't an offsides either). I was at both those games & believe me....those weren't the only plays in those games that Ware made Brown look pitiful. One was a pre-season game in Shreveport & the other was when we blew Dallas out in Irving. I know Ware is an elite DE (& he really is elite)...no doubt, but Brown still played horribly. I think Brown is very coachable has great finesse, I just don't think he has the physical abilities that Strief has. That's not just about size. Everyone knows Strief is huge, but he is sound in technique as well. Time will tell, but I think Brown only has a year or two left in a Saints uniform. I think we will see come contract time.
	http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...gs/12-3006.jpg ______________________________ KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE! -G.I. Joe