Whats wrong with Brown?

gandhi1007 · 05-03-2008, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

Brown is one of the premier left tackles in the NFC if not the whole NFL....

What?!?! Brown is average...nothing more at LT. He's strong at RT, but not LT.

Question: What offensive lineman led the Saints in penalties for the last 4 seasons?

Answer: J. Brown

Does a premiere LT lead your team in penalties? Nope. Do the research....though Drew Brees was rarely sacked last year, which side did the majority of those sacks come from? Here's a hint....it wasn't the right. Also....did you notice that the team had more rushing yards up the middle & to the right? Surely, we should have had more yards rushing to the left behind a premiere LT like Brown, right? (Sacasm intended).

Now....I'm all for keeping Brown, but please do not come with the he's a premiere LT BS. He's not. He had one...yes, one Pro Bowl because the Saints made it to the NFC championship game. There were more deserving offensive lineman on our team that year (Evans) that didn't get the invite. Why? What is a right handed QB's most noticed offensive lineman? LT (even if they are not as good as advertised).

hagan714 · 05-03-2008, 12:52 PM

He is a good LT but by no means a premiere LT. He would be a premiere RT teamed with Evans.
If the back ups develop it may be a good idea to see what kind of picks we can get for him. But for the love of God make sure first.

CantonLegend · 05-03-2008, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by gandhi1007

I'm going to say this....Brown is not an All-Pro!!! He made one Pro Bowl while riding the hype of the saints best season ever. By the way...he also leads the team in penalties by an offensive lineman. So...yes he's a good RT, but Strief would be a better LT IMO.

how can an unproven tackle start over a pro-bowler...it doesnt matter if he made it only one year....he earned it....dont hate on a saint dude...streif is a back up and a good one..but hes a backup....u can use the games he got to play as an example but not a whole argument...he hasnt shown consistency much like brown....while offsides are inexcusable.....his penalties were not detrimental to the outcome of the game...thats easily fixed and thats a terrible thing to rip on somebody....thats like saying jason davids biggest concern is holding the recievers....brown doesnt have many...if ne question marks with his blocking....the sacks came off of blitzes and yes...some linemen sacks but the saints got taken advantage of...we didnt expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season...we adjusted and it fixed the problem

gandhi1007 · 05-03-2008, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

how can an unproven tackle start over a pro-bowler...it doesnt matter if he made it only one year....he earned it....dont hate on a saint dude...streif is a back up and a good one..but hes a backup....u can use the games he got to play as an example but not a whole argument...he hasnt shown consistency much like brown....while offsides are inexcusable.....his penalties were not detrimental to the outcome of the game...thats easily fixed and thats a terrible thing to rip on somebody....thats like saying jason davids biggest concern is holding the recievers....brown doesnt have many...if ne question marks with his blocking....the sacks came off of blitzes and yes...some linemen sacks but the saints got taken advantage of...we didnt expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season...we adjusted and it fixed the problem

Unproven? How's this for proof? Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years. In his starts in the pros, he allowed less sacks, less tackles behind the line of scrimmage, & had less penalties per game than J. Brown. He's also a much better run blocker. Now...if all you can use is the term unproven in regards to starting time, everyone in the NFL is unproven at one time or another. As for the "we didn't expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season" excuse....dude, it's the NFL! As a starting offensive lineman, you should expect pressure from opposing defenses EVERY game. That's just a poor excuse for bad play. I'm not saying Brown is horrible. He's not. I'm saying he's a better fit at RT where he could actually be an elite RT (especially with help from J'Hari Evans at his side). I've been to just about every home game for the last 4 years & I'm telling you....Strief has performed better at LT than Brown in his starts. I know you're on the "I love J. Brown" train, but watch the games & you will see what a few of us are trying to tell you.

JKool · 05-03-2008, 02:04 PM

The most penalties on the OL! That is an interesting stat. What year did Riley play for us? I can't imagine he didn't have the most penalties that season.

Ghandi, I enjoyed your post. I have two question before I buy your argument (which I am close to buying):

(1) Don't most sacks come off the left side of the Offense? That is, it would be helpful to know the number of sacks the Saints left side allowed when compared to (at least) other teams.

(2) If it is more difficult to play LT than RT (which I currently believe), isn't it more likely to garner more penalites at LT than a roughly equally skilled RT? That is, don't most teams LTs have the most penalties for any player on the OL (barring the dirty players who tend to get flagged more)? Here, again, it would be helpful to know (a) if Brown has signifcantly more penalties than other LTs, and (b) if LTs in general have the most penalites of any position on the OL.

I'm certainly willing to concede that Brown is an average starting LT in this league, but that would put him at the roughly the 16th best LT in the world. Not too shabby.

JKool · 05-03-2008, 02:23 PM

Here's some stats that confirm Gandi's claim about the left side being worse than the right side.

SI.com - NFL - Sortable Team Offensive Line Stats - Individual Leaders

These stats are fairly broad strokes though. Does anyone know where I can get more precise statistics for the OL?

gandhi1007 · 05-03-2008, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by JKool

The most penalties on the OL! That is an interesting stat. What year did Riley play for us? I can't imagine he didn't have the most penalties that season.

Ghandi, I enjoyed your post. I have two question before I buy your argument (which I am close to buying):

(1) Don't most sacks come off the left side of the Offense? That is, it would be helpful to know the number of sacks the Saints left side allowed when compared to (at least) other teams.

(2) If it is more difficult to play LT than RT (which I currently believe), isn't it more likely to garner more penalites at LT than a roughly equally skilled RT? That is, don't most teams LTs have the most penalties for any player on the OL (barring the dirty players who tend to get flagged more)? Here, again, it would be helpful to know (a) if Brown has signifcantly more penalties than other LTs, and (b) if LTs in general have the most penalites of any position on the OL.

I'm certainly willing to concede that Brown is an average starting LT in this league, but that would put him at the roughly the 16th best LT in the world. Not too shabby.

Of course the LT position is the tougher of the two OT positions....this is true. However...they do not necessarily garner the most penalties. See the Kansas City offensive lines when Roaf (a real elite LT) was there. RG was actually the most penalized on that team believe it or not. I'm not saying that Brown is the worst....he's not. He's average for the position. What I am saying is that in the games I've seen, Strief outperformed him. That's all. A few of us have been saying for a while now...."What if we moved Brown back to RT & started Strief at LT?" Now....that would be wonderful. Of course, I am not Sean Payton, so I may never see that. But....I honestly believe from what I've seen on the field that the OL would be more solid.

CantonLegend · 05-03-2008, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by gandhi1007

Unproven? How's this for proof? Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years. In his starts in the pros, he allowed less sacks, less tackles behind the line of scrimmage, & had less penalties per game than J. Brown. He's also a much better run blocker. Now...if all you can use is the term unproven in regards to starting time, everyone in the NFL is unproven at one time or another. As for the "we didn't expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season" excuse....dude, it's the NFL! As a starting offensive lineman, you should expect pressure from opposing defenses EVERY game. That's just a poor excuse for bad play. I'm not saying Brown is horrible. He's not. I'm saying he's a better fit at RT where he could actually be an elite RT (especially with help from J'Hari Evans at his side). I've been to just about every home game for the last 4 years & I'm telling you....Strief has performed better at LT than Brown in his starts. I know you're on the "I love J. Brown" train, but watch the games & you will see what a few of us are trying to tell you.

I like Jammal brown and i think he is a good LT....he is not elite...but he is worthy of starting at LT....for some reason u are obsessed with strief...he may start at RT this year but brown has earned his position....and dude..ne body except stinch can do a great job with jahri over there...lol thats silly....jahri is great....the fact that they got blitzed like no other is not an excuse...its just lack of communication and may have caused his false starts...hmm?...if u get overloaded on one side its more likely u'll jump?...it is true however....later in the season we had better protection because we anticipated the blitz on the left....we have a great line and switching too many players around could mess up the gel we have...why fix something that isnt broken?

gandhi1007 · 05-03-2008, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

I like Jammal brown and i think he is a good LT....he is not elite...but he is worthy of starting at LT....for some reason u are obsessed with strief...he may start at RT this year but brown has earned his position....and dude..ne body except stinch can do a great job with jahri over there...lol thats silly....jahri is great....the fact that they got blitzed like no other is not an excuse...its just lack of communication and may have caused his false starts...hmm?...if u get overloaded on one side its more likely u'll jump?...it is true however....later in the season we had better protection because we anticipated the blitz on the left....we have a great line and switching too many players around could mess up the gel we have...why fix something that isnt broken?

Let me get this straight..... You've gone from "Brown is a premiere LT" to "he is not elite". Huh? Is this the Okey-Doke or what? Dude....I'm done.

P.S.- No one is obsessed with Strief. I do however have my opinion that he is a better fit at LT than Brown. That opinion is based on actually being at the games & watching what takes place on the field....not what stats & accolades I read on any one player. For instance...Emmitt Smith is the NFL's all time leading rusher. Do I believe he was better than Walter Payton or Barry Sanders? HELL NO!!!! I watched all of them play & I can tell you that Emmitt couldn't hold a candle to those two. But....if you go by blind stats, Emmitt is supposedly the best of all times, right? Hmmmm....

CantonLegend · 05-03-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by gandhi1007

Let me get this straight..... You've gone from "Brown is a premiere LT" to "he is not elite". Huh? Is this the Okey-Doke or what? Dude....I'm done.

i figured somebody would say something about that....and i had 2 different meanings for elite and premier...i shoulda clarified it....he is a premiere LT....he goes in consistantly and does his job on a weekly basis....an elite LT goes in and does his job consistantly and does his job on a weekly basis....but he does it better than nebody else...he is intimidating...he is ferocious so-to-speak....he does it with ease....if u dont wanna go on about it thats fine....but i thought u might want me to clear that up for u

05-03-2008, 12:43 PM	#11
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Re: who was the steal in our draft? Originally Posted by CantonLegend Brown is one of the premier left tackles in the NFC if not the whole NFL.... What?!?! Brown is average...nothing more at LT. He's strong at RT, but not LT. Question: What offensive lineman led the Saints in penalties for the last 4 seasons? Answer: J. Brown Does a premiere LT lead your team in penalties? Nope. Do the research....though Drew Brees was rarely sacked last year, which side did the majority of those sacks come from? Here's a hint....it wasn't the right. Also....did you notice that the team had more rushing yards up the middle & to the right? Surely, we should have had more yards rushing to the left behind a premiere LT like Brown, right? (Sacasm intended). Now....I'm all for keeping Brown, but please do not come with the he's a premiere LT BS. He's not. He had one...yes, one Pro Bowl because the Saints made it to the NFC championship game. There were more deserving offensive lineman on our team that year (Evans) that didn't get the invite. Why? What is a right handed QB's most noticed offensive lineman? LT (even if they are not as good as advertised).
	http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...gs/12-3006.jpg ______________________________ KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE! -G.I. Joe

05-03-2008, 12:52 PM	#12
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? He is a good LT but by no means a premiere LT. He would be a premiere RT teamed with Evans. If the back ups develop it may be a good idea to see what kind of picks we can get for him. But for the love of God make sure first.

05-03-2008, 01:08 PM	#13
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by gandhi1007 I'm going to say this....Brown is not an All-Pro!!! He made one Pro Bowl while riding the hype of the saints best season ever. By the way...he also leads the team in penalties by an offensive lineman. So...yes he's a good RT, but Strief would be a better LT IMO. how can an unproven tackle start over a pro-bowler...it doesnt matter if he made it only one year....he earned it....dont hate on a saint dude...streif is a back up and a good one..but hes a backup....u can use the games he got to play as an example but not a whole argument...he hasnt shown consistency much like brown....while offsides are inexcusable.....his penalties were not detrimental to the outcome of the game...thats easily fixed and thats a terrible thing to rip on somebody....thats like saying jason davids biggest concern is holding the recievers....brown doesnt have many...if ne question marks with his blocking....the sacks came off of blitzes and yes...some linemen sacks but the saints got taken advantage of...we didnt expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season...we adjusted and it fixed the problem
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-03-2008, 01:59 PM	#14
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by CantonLegend how can an unproven tackle start over a pro-bowler...it doesnt matter if he made it only one year....he earned it....dont hate on a saint dude...streif is a back up and a good one..but hes a backup....u can use the games he got to play as an example but not a whole argument...he hasnt shown consistency much like brown....while offsides are inexcusable.....his penalties were not detrimental to the outcome of the game...thats easily fixed and thats a terrible thing to rip on somebody....thats like saying jason davids biggest concern is holding the recievers....brown doesnt have many...if ne question marks with his blocking....the sacks came off of blitzes and yes...some linemen sacks but the saints got taken advantage of...we didnt expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season...we adjusted and it fixed the problem Unproven? How's this for proof? Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years. In his starts in the pros, he allowed less sacks, less tackles behind the line of scrimmage, & had less penalties per game than J. Brown. He's also a much better run blocker. Now...if all you can use is the term unproven in regards to starting time, everyone in the NFL is unproven at one time or another. As for the "we didn't expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season" excuse....dude, it's the NFL! As a starting offensive lineman, you should expect pressure from opposing defenses EVERY game. That's just a poor excuse for bad play. I'm not saying Brown is horrible. He's not. I'm saying he's a better fit at RT where he could actually be an elite RT (especially with help from J'Hari Evans at his side). I've been to just about every home game for the last 4 years & I'm telling you....Strief has performed better at LT than Brown in his starts. I know you're on the "I love J. Brown" train, but watch the games & you will see what a few of us are trying to tell you.
	http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...gs/12-3006.jpg ______________________________ KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE! -G.I. Joe

05-03-2008, 02:04 PM	#15
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? The most penalties on the OL! That is an interesting stat. What year did Riley play for us? I can't imagine he didn't have the most penalties that season. Ghandi, I enjoyed your post. I have two question before I buy your argument (which I am close to buying): (1) Don't most sacks come off the left side of the Offense? That is, it would be helpful to know the number of sacks the Saints left side allowed when compared to (at least) other teams. (2) If it is more difficult to play LT than RT (which I currently believe), isn't it more likely to garner more penalites at LT than a roughly equally skilled RT? That is, don't most teams LTs have the most penalties for any player on the OL (barring the dirty players who tend to get flagged more)? Here, again, it would be helpful to know (a) if Brown has signifcantly more penalties than other LTs, and (b) if LTs in general have the most penalites of any position on the OL. I'm certainly willing to concede that Brown is an average starting LT in this league, but that would put him at the roughly the 16th best LT in the world. Not too shabby.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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05-03-2008, 02:23 PM	#16
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Here's some stats that confirm Gandi's claim about the left side being worse than the right side. SI.com - NFL - Sortable Team Offensive Line Stats - Individual Leaders These stats are fairly broad strokes though. Does anyone know where I can get more precise statistics for the OL?

05-03-2008, 02:47 PM	#17
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by JKool The most penalties on the OL! That is an interesting stat. What year did Riley play for us? I can't imagine he didn't have the most penalties that season. Ghandi, I enjoyed your post. I have two question before I buy your argument (which I am close to buying): (1) Don't most sacks come off the left side of the Offense? That is, it would be helpful to know the number of sacks the Saints left side allowed when compared to (at least) other teams. (2) If it is more difficult to play LT than RT (which I currently believe), isn't it more likely to garner more penalites at LT than a roughly equally skilled RT? That is, don't most teams LTs have the most penalties for any player on the OL (barring the dirty players who tend to get flagged more)? Here, again, it would be helpful to know (a) if Brown has signifcantly more penalties than other LTs, and (b) if LTs in general have the most penalites of any position on the OL. I'm certainly willing to concede that Brown is an average starting LT in this league, but that would put him at the roughly the 16th best LT in the world. Not too shabby. Of course the LT position is the tougher of the two OT positions....this is true. However...they do not necessarily garner the most penalties. See the Kansas City offensive lines when Roaf (a real elite LT) was there. RG was actually the most penalized on that team believe it or not. I'm not saying that Brown is the worst....he's not. He's average for the position. What I am saying is that in the games I've seen, Strief outperformed him. That's all. A few of us have been saying for a while now...."What if we moved Brown back to RT & started Strief at LT?" Now....that would be wonderful. Of course, I am not Sean Payton, so I may never see that. But....I honestly believe from what I've seen on the field that the OL would be more solid.
	http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...gs/12-3006.jpg ______________________________ KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE! -G.I. Joe

05-03-2008, 03:03 PM	#18
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by gandhi1007 Unproven? How's this for proof? Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years. In his starts in the pros, he allowed less sacks, less tackles behind the line of scrimmage, & had less penalties per game than J. Brown. He's also a much better run blocker. Now...if all you can use is the term unproven in regards to starting time, everyone in the NFL is unproven at one time or another. As for the "we didn't expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season" excuse....dude, it's the NFL! As a starting offensive lineman, you should expect pressure from opposing defenses EVERY game. That's just a poor excuse for bad play. I'm not saying Brown is horrible. He's not. I'm saying he's a better fit at RT where he could actually be an elite RT (especially with help from J'Hari Evans at his side). I've been to just about every home game for the last 4 years & I'm telling you....Strief has performed better at LT than Brown in his starts. I know you're on the "I love J. Brown" train, but watch the games & you will see what a few of us are trying to tell you. I like Jammal brown and i think he is a good LT....he is not elite...but he is worthy of starting at LT....for some reason u are obsessed with strief...he may start at RT this year but brown has earned his position....and dude..ne body except stinch can do a great job with jahri over there...lol thats silly....jahri is great....the fact that they got blitzed like no other is not an excuse...its just lack of communication and may have caused his false starts...hmm?...if u get overloaded on one side its more likely u'll jump?...it is true however....later in the season we had better protection because we anticipated the blitz on the left....we have a great line and switching too many players around could mess up the gel we have...why fix something that isnt broken?
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-03-2008, 03:28 PM	#19
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by CantonLegend I like Jammal brown and i think he is a good LT....he is not elite...but he is worthy of starting at LT....for some reason u are obsessed with strief...he may start at RT this year but brown has earned his position....and dude..ne body except stinch can do a great job with jahri over there...lol thats silly....jahri is great....the fact that they got blitzed like no other is not an excuse...its just lack of communication and may have caused his false starts...hmm?...if u get overloaded on one side its more likely u'll jump?...it is true however....later in the season we had better protection because we anticipated the blitz on the left....we have a great line and switching too many players around could mess up the gel we have...why fix something that isnt broken? Let me get this straight..... You've gone from "Brown is a premiere LT" to "he is not elite". Huh? Is this the Okey-Doke or what? Dude....I'm done. P.S.- No one is obsessed with Strief. I do however have my opinion that he is a better fit at LT than Brown. That opinion is based on actually being at the games & watching what takes place on the field....not what stats & accolades I read on any one player. For instance...Emmitt Smith is the NFL's all time leading rusher. Do I believe he was better than Walter Payton or Barry Sanders? HELL NO!!!! I watched all of them play & I can tell you that Emmitt couldn't hold a candle to those two. But....if you go by blind stats, Emmitt is supposedly the best of all times, right? Hmmmm....
	http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...gs/12-3006.jpg ______________________________ KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE! -G.I. Joe

05-03-2008, 03:41 PM	#20
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Whats wrong with Brown? Originally Posted by gandhi1007 Let me get this straight..... You've gone from "Brown is a premiere LT" to "he is not elite". Huh? Is this the Okey-Doke or what? Dude....I'm done. i figured somebody would say something about that....and i had 2 different meanings for elite and premier...i shoulda clarified it....he is a premiere LT....he goes in consistantly and does his job on a weekly basis....an elite LT goes in and does his job consistantly and does his job on a weekly basis....but he does it better than nebody else...he is intimidating...he is ferocious so-to-speak....he does it with ease....if u dont wanna go on about it thats fine....but i thought u might want me to clear that up for u
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd