porter ready for next test in nfl........

hagan714 · 05-05-2008, 06:12 PM

suit'em up first

JKool · 05-05-2008, 06:16 PM

I got a little snarky there. My apologies.

I just don't understand these anti-statistics arguments. I certainly agree that they don't tell the whole story, so they can be misleading. However, watching several games is open to a common fallacy known as hasty generalization.

There is a trade off between visual experience and statistical analysis (and probably other things). Alone, each is not as good as they are together. However, I just continue to resist the idea that one is SO MUCH BETTER than the other. They are just different kinds of information (and they are roughly equally incomplete).

WillMacKenzie · 05-05-2008, 06:35 PM

I'm just sayin I'm not sold on Porter as I am on Ellis. And I tried to provide SOME reasoning and evidence for my case.

By all means, I hope he's the best corner in the NFL for the next 10 years - I just have my doubts right now. I'm skeptical of this guy. Civil debate is what used to make this country great : D

JKool · 05-05-2008, 07:41 PM

I completely agree.

This time of year there is always a ton of hype. It is good to keep a bit of a skeptical stance.

I too think that Porter's impact will be much less than appears to be anticipated by fans. The learning curve for CBs tends to take a couple of years; that is, even if Porter turns out to be great, it won't be right away, certainly.

Memnoch_TP · 05-06-2008, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie

Jason David 2007

Games played: 13
Tackles: 50
Passes Defensed: 11
Forced Fumbles: 2 for 55 yards. (one returned for touchdown)
Interceptions: 3 for 21 yards.

Mike Mckenzie 2007

Games played: 15
Tackles: 52
Passes Defensed: 17
Forced Fumbles: 0
Interceptions: 3 for 161 (two touchdowns)

So from looking at the stats, we could say what? That Jason David and Mike Mckenzie were basically the same player? Were they really? Did you watch the games?

Strange, isn't it? : )

There is one major difference though.

He was zeroing in on one specific aspect of Porter's play, and looking for stats that helped to determine that answer.

You were simply manipulating statistics to show that statistics can be manipulated, because you don't like statistics, because they can be manipulated.

This makes EXACTLY as much sense as a stranger walking up to you and asking you what time it is, and responding by giving him a picture of a donkey, telling him you love Jesus, farting, and walking off.

But, I don't expect a response to this. You see, WORDS can also be misleading! Yes, you read that right! WORDS can be misleading! Now you won't be able to talk or type, unless you dip your toes in that pool of inequity called language, and what would that do to your soul?

So, judgment goes to the defendant. Especially since the plaintiff testified against himself, showing two NFL CBs with 30+ less tackles than Porter, who played less games in college. Porter is NOT afraid of contact.

Having the right stats helped make this an easy call.

TheDeuce · 05-06-2008, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie

"stats"

And Mark Simoneau's a stud middle linebacker...

Porter could be another one of these "bend but don't break" players who stand out in the field waiting for tackles to come to HIM.

Just saying - be realistic people.

I know I'm a little late on this argument, but that's a completely different situation. Mark Simoneau is a middle linebacker who is supposed to rack up the tackles. If he doesn't, he sucks. Most MLBs have over 100 tackles a season (or if your Jonathan Vilma, you can get 187 or whatever he had a few years back).

But for a cornerback to rack up 87 tackles in a college football season, that's gotta tell you that he can tackle. I'm not saying I'm ready to crown him as the next coming of Champ Bailey, but I do think that you have to consider his stats when making an assessment of the player. Your right, stats don't tell the whole story, but it does make you wonder why he's been labeled as not a physical player.

JKool · 05-06-2008, 11:11 AM

Memnoch, I like your point about the misleading nature of words. That fits nicely with my idea about the misleading nature of "viewing". Do you agree that an aggregation of various types of evidence is a good thing, or do you think we are always mislead? Just curious really.

TheDuece, nice take on the role of stats in this argument. I agree. The stats don't tell the whole story, but how can they be completely discounted (at least without some other argument)? Though, I may disagree with you slightly on the MLB point, overall I'm on board with what you're saying.

stockman311 · 05-06-2008, 11:34 AM

As long as he doesn't get beat deep, I don't care how poorly he tackles. If we can get opposing teams off the field this year on 3rd and long and stop with all the 20+ yd plays on us we are going to murder the league this year.

iceshack149 · 05-06-2008, 03:17 PM

But, I don't expect a response to this. You see, WORDS can also be misleading! Yes, you read that right! WORDS can be misleading! Now you won't be able to talk or type, unless you dip your toes in that pool of inequity called language, and what would that do to your soul?

Memnoch, I like your point about the misleading nature of words. That fits nicely with my idea about the misleading nature of "viewing". Do you agree that an aggregation of various types of evidence is a good thing, or do you think we are always mislead? Just curious really.

Language is indeed limiting. Especially the English language. What I suffer from the most on these forums, general typing and written form is the inability to use hand gestures and facial expressions, as evidenced in poor communication with JKool the other day.

JKool · 05-06-2008, 03:19 PM

I think we should implement the use of hand gestures...

05-05-2008, 06:12 PM	#11
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ suit'em up first

05-05-2008, 06:16 PM	#12
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ I got a little snarky there. My apologies. I just don't understand these anti-statistics arguments. I certainly agree that they don't tell the whole story, so they can be misleading. However, watching several games is open to a common fallacy known as hasty generalization. There is a trade off between visual experience and statistical analysis (and probably other things). Alone, each is not as good as they are together. However, I just continue to resist the idea that one is SO MUCH BETTER than the other. They are just different kinds of information (and they are roughly equally incomplete).
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-05-2008, 06:35 PM	#13
WillMacKenzie 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,627	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ I'm just sayin I'm not sold on Porter as I am on Ellis. And I tried to provide SOME reasoning and evidence for my case. By all means, I hope he's the best corner in the NFL for the next 10 years - I just have my doubts right now. I'm skeptical of this guy. Civil debate is what used to make this country great : D

05-05-2008, 07:41 PM	#14
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ I completely agree. This time of year there is always a ton of hype. It is good to keep a bit of a skeptical stance. I too think that Porter's impact will be much less than appears to be anticipated by fans. The learning curve for CBs tends to take a couple of years; that is, even if Porter turns out to be great, it won't be right away, certainly.

05-06-2008, 01:54 AM	#15
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie Jason David 2007 Games played: 13 Tackles: 50 Passes Defensed: 11 Forced Fumbles: 2 for 55 yards. (one returned for touchdown) Interceptions: 3 for 21 yards. Mike Mckenzie 2007 Games played: 15 Tackles: 52 Passes Defensed: 17 Forced Fumbles: 0 Interceptions: 3 for 161 (two touchdowns) So from looking at the stats, we could say what? That Jason David and Mike Mckenzie were basically the same player? Were they really? Did you watch the games? Strange, isn't it? : ) There is one major difference though. He was zeroing in on one specific aspect of Porter's play, and looking for stats that helped to determine that answer. You were simply manipulating statistics to show that statistics can be manipulated, because you don't like statistics, because they can be manipulated. This makes EXACTLY as much sense as a stranger walking up to you and asking you what time it is, and responding by giving him a picture of a donkey, telling him you love Jesus, farting, and walking off. But, I don't expect a response to this. You see, WORDS can also be misleading! Yes, you read that right! WORDS can be misleading! Now you won't be able to talk or type, unless you dip your toes in that pool of inequity called language, and what would that do to your soul? So, judgment goes to the defendant. Especially since the plaintiff testified against himself, showing two NFL CBs with 30+ less tackles than Porter, who played less games in college. Porter is NOT afraid of contact. Having the right stats helped make this an easy call.
	"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams.

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05-06-2008, 02:17 AM	#16
TheDeuce 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,928	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie "stats" And Mark Simoneau's a stud middle linebacker... Porter could be another one of these "bend but don't break" players who stand out in the field waiting for tackles to come to HIM. Just saying - be realistic people. I know I'm a little late on this argument, but that's a completely different situation. Mark Simoneau is a middle linebacker who is supposed to rack up the tackles. If he doesn't, he sucks. Most MLBs have over 100 tackles a season (or if your Jonathan Vilma, you can get 187 or whatever he had a few years back). But for a cornerback to rack up 87 tackles in a college football season, that's gotta tell you that he can tackle. I'm not saying I'm ready to crown him as the next coming of Champ Bailey, but I do think that you have to consider his stats when making an assessment of the player. Your right, stats don't tell the whole story, but it does make you wonder why he's been labeled as not a physical player.
TheDeuce 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,928

05-06-2008, 11:11 AM	#17
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ Memnoch, I like your point about the misleading nature of words. That fits nicely with my idea about the misleading nature of "viewing". Do you agree that an aggregation of various types of evidence is a good thing, or do you think we are always mislead? Just curious really. TheDuece, nice take on the role of stats in this argument. I agree. The stats don't tell the whole story, but how can they be completely discounted (at least without some other argument)? Though, I may disagree with you slightly on the MLB point, overall I'm on board with what you're saying.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-06-2008, 11:34 AM	#18
stockman311 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,137	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ As long as he doesn't get beat deep, I don't care how poorly he tackles. If we can get opposing teams off the field this year on 3rd and long and stop with all the 20+ yd plays on us we are going to murder the league this year.

05-06-2008, 03:17 PM	#19
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,299 Blog Entries: 1	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ But, I don't expect a response to this. You see, WORDS can also be misleading! Yes, you read that right! WORDS can be misleading! Now you won't be able to talk or type, unless you dip your toes in that pool of inequity called language, and what would that do to your soul? Memnoch, I like your point about the misleading nature of words. That fits nicely with my idea about the misleading nature of "viewing". Do you agree that an aggregation of various types of evidence is a good thing, or do you think we are always mislead? Just curious really. Language is indeed limiting. Especially the English language. What I suffer from the most on these forums, general typing and written form is the inability to use hand gestures and facial expressions, as evidenced in poor communication with JKool the other day.

05-06-2008, 03:19 PM	#20
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: porter ready for next test in nfl........ I think we should implement the use of hand gestures...