The Elephant in the room.....

spkb25 · 09-11-2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by saintpaul25

I'm a firm believer in getting paid for what you do, and what they do it very dangerous indeed. But not as dangerous as say being a policeman, or in the military, or a fireman. Those guys put their lives on the line everyday, and don't make anywhere NEAR what a bench warming NFL scrub makes.

No offense man and I am sorry to say this, but nothing annoys me more than hearing this same argument constantly. If it was as difficult to be any of those things you just named they would make more money or similar money, but it isn't. Unfortunately private industry is just that. I am not trying to pick on you, but I am sincerely sick of hearing this argument. It has no legitimate reasoning to it. If someone has private money and chooses to pay someone 30 million dollars to sweep his floors why would someone else ever have the right to dictate what that person does with the money they earned. You don't. It doesn't matter what spin you attempt to place on it- you simply do not own their money and therefor have no legitimate right to dictate what they do with it.

If you want to have that type of say than you have to go earn that type of money and than you can choose to spend your money in any matter you see fit.

I could care less what the players have going on with their contract and tend to agree that their all wealthy- but the simple fact is the owners OWN the team- they should be able to pay what they see fit, and if you as a player choose not to play for that, that is well within your right too. Unfortunately this country has set a dangerous precedent that somehow people who take on none of the rick that owners of companies do somehow have a right to a large portion of that persons earnings. I simply disagree. You are paid for your talent, and if you don't have much you are paid accordingly. It does not require much talent to be a policeman or fireman (I said nothing of the danger) and they are paid accordingly. Just like objects are generally more valuable due to how rare they are- the same goes with talent.

TopCow · 09-11-2010, 12:40 PM

I honestly don't care who is right and who is wrong in this dispute. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Both sides could make the case that they deserve more money. Both sides can be accused of being greedy and delusional.

What I do know is that that players' show of solidarity rubbed me the wrong way. Making a symbolic solidarity gesture before the game turned me against the players. I do not care to side in all these fiscal squabbles because they seem ridiculous. Like fighting over who gets a bigger share of Boardwalk and Park Place while the folks in the stands live in row houses on Baltic Avenue. And now courting the support of the row house dwellers. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

So, players and owners, go fight it out on your own. What you earn is your business, not mine. And don't ask me to choose sides. I identify with the crisis of neither owners nor players; neither of your sides is in a fiscal crisis and have no idea what one is.

pherein · 09-11-2010, 01:35 PM

Well this has always been a failing of our society starting around the 20th century. Before that time entertainment was seen for what it is, a fun thing to watch but not that important.

Of course it takes more to be a police officer, detective,scientist,teacher,paramedic,doctor, military personnel, and etc.. than to be in the entertainment industry. Sports is just entertainment.

If you mess up in entertainment you can do a retake or you just lose a game.
With real life professions if you mess up you could get yourself or someone else killed. I would rather do a 4th and 20 then ever have to enter a domestic violence dispute as a police officer, be on a mission in Iraq, or be responsible for a car accident trying to save a persons crushed body as a paramedic.

What guys do in the NFL is great, and I love it, but if they didn't exist it really wouldn't make a difference.
If one doctor, cop, military etc.. person didn't exist then hundreds of other people lives would be effected.
When you pay an actor 20 million to play someone in the military or a teacher for 4 months of work, but pay the people who do that job, day in day out 30k you know theres a priority problem with society.
Do they deserve the money , of course not , its entertainment. Will it ever change, no of course not.

Players need to get as much money as they can and I dont fault them for doing so. They didnt create societies rules, as messed up as they are. Pay the man.

spkb25 · 09-11-2010, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by pherein

Well this has always been a failing of our society starting around the 20th century. Before that time entertainment was seen for what it is, a fun thing to watch but not that important.

Of course it takes more to be a police officer, detective,scientist,teacher,paramedic,doctor, military personnel, and etc.. than to be in the entertainment industry. Sports is just entertainment.

Really, how many players on each team multiplied by how many teams? People are paid what they are worth.

Originally Posted by pherein

If you mess up in entertainment you can do a retake or you just lose a game.
With real life professions if you mess up you could get yourself or someone else killed. I would rather do a 4th and 20 then ever have to enter a domestic violence dispute as a police officer, be on a mission in Iraq, or be responsible for a car accident trying to save a persons crushed body as a paramedic.

What guys do in the NFL is great, and I love it, but if they didn't exist it really wouldn't make a difference.

What does that matter? That, unless I am wrong, has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay them.

Originally Posted by pherein

If one doctor, cop, military etc.. person didn't exist then hundreds of other people lives would be effected.

NFL players, and the NFL as a whole donate a lot of money, and time- they effect many lives. Many people owe their livings to the NFL, and this extends much further than the players and coaches. That is absurd statement that required little to no thought.

Originally Posted by pherein

When you pay an actor 20 million to play someone in the military or a teacher for 4 months of work, but pay the people who do that job, day in day out 30k you know theres a priority problem with society.
Do they deserve the money , of course not , its entertainment. Will it ever change, no of course not.

I apologize- who are you to determine whether they deserve the money or not- do you own the money? If someone else believes they are worth that and are willing to pay them it- they deserve it.

If you believe these things I challenge you to earn that type of money and pay teachers and police out of your pocket. Until that day they'll make what they deserve.

Originally Posted by pherein

Players need to get as much money as they can and I dont fault them for doing so. They didnt create societies rules, as messed up as they are. Pay the man.

These are not rules. See this is your issue- you see this as rules of society. These are individual choices. The choices of an individual to pay money out of their pocket in an amount they see as fit. Society, as a whole, does not factor in any regard- other than to say clearly people are willing to shell this money out to the NFL instead of their community. That is their choice as individuals. Again- they own their money

I am not attacking you as a person, so please do not read more into my post than is there. I am completely attacking your ideology, but nothing more.

spkb25 · 09-11-2010, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by TopCow

I honestly don't care who is right and who is wrong in this dispute. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Both sides could make the case that they deserve more money. Both sides can be accused of being greedy and delusional.

What I do know is that that players' show of solidarity rubbed me the wrong way. Making a symbolic solidarity gesture before the game turned me against the players. I do not care to side in all these fiscal squabbles because they seem ridiculous. Like fighting over who gets a bigger share of Boardwalk and Park Place while the folks in the stands live in row houses on Baltic Avenue. And now courting the support of the row house dwellers. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

So, players and owners, go fight it out on your own. What you earn is your business, not mine. And don't ask me to choose sides. I identify with the crisis of neither owners nor players; neither of your sides is in a fiscal crisis and have no idea what one is.

Top I agree- keep me out of it- handle it on your own.

strato · 09-11-2010, 02:52 PM

Im gonna keep it simple ..ITS THE UNION! what do expect its a brotherhood..im in one..also the fans are caught in the middle ..and that sucks...

pherein · 09-11-2010, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by spkb25

I am not attacking you as a person, so please do not read more into my post than is there. I am completely attacking your ideology, but nothing more.

Oh I know, I just dont think your right, and have met a couple of people who think the way you do, and know that no debate on the subject is going to change your views on the subject. Im just posting what I think. Im not going to debate it.

spkb25 · 09-11-2010, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by strato

Im gonna keep it simple ..ITS THE UNION! what do expect its a brotherhood..im in one..also the fans are caught in the middle ..and that sucks...

You know man they use to be- now they are exactly what they are supposedly against. The people at the top of the unions are extremely wealthy while the people they represent and who pay their salaries are not. Nothing more than a scam now.

SaintPauly · 09-12-2010, 10:29 AM

Private money.... Where did they get all that money? From the FANS. Yes they provided the initial investments, to build the team, but without the consumers, buying their products, they would be dead in the water.

Here's another question. Let's say the owners decide to lock the players out, and there is no season in 2011. What happens to season ticket holders? Will they still have to buy a season package? Or will they get to keep their seats, and start paying the next season? Or will it all start over from zero holders? I'm serious with that question, what will be the procedure on this?

spkb25 · 09-12-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by pherein

Oh I know, I just dont think your right, and have met a couple of people who think the way you do, and know that no debate on the subject is going to change your views on the subject. Im just posting what I think. Im not going to debate it.

No Problem man. It is okay for us to think differently, but one thing we agree on- GEAUX SAINTS!!!!

09-11-2010, 12:11 PM	#21
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Originally Posted by saintpaul25 I'm a firm believer in getting paid for what you do, and what they do it very dangerous indeed. But not as dangerous as say being a policeman, or in the military, or a fireman. Those guys put their lives on the line everyday, and don't make anywhere NEAR what a bench warming NFL scrub makes. No offense man and I am sorry to say this, but nothing annoys me more than hearing this same argument constantly. If it was as difficult to be any of those things you just named they would make more money or similar money, but it isn't. Unfortunately private industry is just that. I am not trying to pick on you, but I am sincerely sick of hearing this argument. It has no legitimate reasoning to it. If someone has private money and chooses to pay someone 30 million dollars to sweep his floors why would someone else ever have the right to dictate what that person does with the money they earned. You don't. It doesn't matter what spin you attempt to place on it- you simply do not own their money and therefor have no legitimate right to dictate what they do with it. If you want to have that type of say than you have to go earn that type of money and than you can choose to spend your money in any matter you see fit. I could care less what the players have going on with their contract and tend to agree that their all wealthy- but the simple fact is the owners OWN the team- they should be able to pay what they see fit, and if you as a player choose not to play for that, that is well within your right too. Unfortunately this country has set a dangerous precedent that somehow people who take on none of the rick that owners of companies do somehow have a right to a large portion of that persons earnings. I simply disagree. You are paid for your talent, and if you don't have much you are paid accordingly. It does not require much talent to be a policeman or fireman (I said nothing of the danger) and they are paid accordingly. Just like objects are generally more valuable due to how rare they are- the same goes with talent.
	Your team stinks

09-11-2010, 12:40 PM	#22
TopCow 100th Post Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 299	I honestly don't care who is right and who is wrong in this dispute. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Both sides could make the case that they deserve more money. Both sides can be accused of being greedy and delusional. What I do know is that that players' show of solidarity rubbed me the wrong way. Making a symbolic solidarity gesture before the game turned me against the players. I do not care to side in all these fiscal squabbles because they seem ridiculous. Like fighting over who gets a bigger share of Boardwalk and Park Place while the folks in the stands live in row houses on Baltic Avenue. And now courting the support of the row house dwellers. Tsk, tsk, tsk. So, players and owners, go fight it out on your own. What you earn is your business, not mine. And don't ask me to choose sides. I identify with the crisis of neither owners nor players; neither of your sides is in a fiscal crisis and have no idea what one is.
TopCow 100th Post Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 299

09-11-2010, 01:35 PM	#23
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Well this has always been a failing of our society starting around the 20th century. Before that time entertainment was seen for what it is, a fun thing to watch but not that important. Of course it takes more to be a police officer, detective,scientist,teacher,paramedic,doctor, military personnel, and etc.. than to be in the entertainment industry. Sports is just entertainment. If you mess up in entertainment you can do a retake or you just lose a game. With real life professions if you mess up you could get yourself or someone else killed. I would rather do a 4th and 20 then ever have to enter a domestic violence dispute as a police officer, be on a mission in Iraq, or be responsible for a car accident trying to save a persons crushed body as a paramedic. What guys do in the NFL is great, and I love it, but if they didn't exist it really wouldn't make a difference. If one doctor, cop, military etc.. person didn't exist then hundreds of other people lives would be effected. When you pay an actor 20 million to play someone in the military or a teacher for 4 months of work, but pay the people who do that job, day in day out 30k you know theres a priority problem with society. Do they deserve the money , of course not , its entertainment. Will it ever change, no of course not. Players need to get as much money as they can and I dont fault them for doing so. They didnt create societies rules, as messed up as they are. Pay the man.
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before.

09-11-2010, 02:35 PM	#24
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Originally Posted by pherein Well this has always been a failing of our society starting around the 20th century. Before that time entertainment was seen for what it is, a fun thing to watch but not that important. Of course it takes more to be a police officer, detective,scientist,teacher,paramedic,doctor, military personnel, and etc.. than to be in the entertainment industry. Sports is just entertainment. Really, how many players on each team multiplied by how many teams? People are paid what they are worth. Originally Posted by pherein If you mess up in entertainment you can do a retake or you just lose a game. With real life professions if you mess up you could get yourself or someone else killed. I would rather do a 4th and 20 then ever have to enter a domestic violence dispute as a police officer, be on a mission in Iraq, or be responsible for a car accident trying to save a persons crushed body as a paramedic. What guys do in the NFL is great, and I love it, but if they didn't exist it really wouldn't make a difference. What does that matter? That, unless I am wrong, has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay them. Originally Posted by pherein If one doctor, cop, military etc.. person didn't exist then hundreds of other people lives would be effected. NFL players, and the NFL as a whole donate a lot of money, and time- they effect many lives. Many people owe their livings to the NFL, and this extends much further than the players and coaches. That is absurd statement that required little to no thought. Originally Posted by pherein When you pay an actor 20 million to play someone in the military or a teacher for 4 months of work, but pay the people who do that job, day in day out 30k you know theres a priority problem with society. Do they deserve the money , of course not , its entertainment. Will it ever change, no of course not. I apologize- who are you to determine whether they deserve the money or not- do you own the money? If someone else believes they are worth that and are willing to pay them it- they deserve it. If you believe these things I challenge you to earn that type of money and pay teachers and police out of your pocket. Until that day they'll make what they deserve. Originally Posted by pherein Players need to get as much money as they can and I dont fault them for doing so. They didnt create societies rules, as messed up as they are. Pay the man. These are not rules. See this is your issue- you see this as rules of society. These are individual choices. The choices of an individual to pay money out of their pocket in an amount they see as fit. Society, as a whole, does not factor in any regard- other than to say clearly people are willing to shell this money out to the NFL instead of their community. That is their choice as individuals. Again- they own their money I am not attacking you as a person, so please do not read more into my post than is there. I am completely attacking your ideology, but nothing more.
	Your team stinks

09-11-2010, 02:38 PM	#25
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Originally Posted by TopCow I honestly don't care who is right and who is wrong in this dispute. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Both sides could make the case that they deserve more money. Both sides can be accused of being greedy and delusional. What I do know is that that players' show of solidarity rubbed me the wrong way. Making a symbolic solidarity gesture before the game turned me against the players. I do not care to side in all these fiscal squabbles because they seem ridiculous. Like fighting over who gets a bigger share of Boardwalk and Park Place while the folks in the stands live in row houses on Baltic Avenue. And now courting the support of the row house dwellers. Tsk, tsk, tsk. So, players and owners, go fight it out on your own. What you earn is your business, not mine. And don't ask me to choose sides. I identify with the crisis of neither owners nor players; neither of your sides is in a fiscal crisis and have no idea what one is. Top I agree- keep me out of it- handle it on your own.

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09-11-2010, 02:52 PM	#26
strato Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Little Ole Town in Tejas" Posts: 7,586	Im gonna keep it simple ..ITS THE UNION! what do expect its a brotherhood..im in one..also the fans are caught in the middle ..and that sucks...

09-11-2010, 03:17 PM	#27
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by spkb25 I am not attacking you as a person, so please do not read more into my post than is there. I am completely attacking your ideology, but nothing more. Oh I know, I just dont think your right, and have met a couple of people who think the way you do, and know that no debate on the subject is going to change your views on the subject. Im just posting what I think. Im not going to debate it.
	Last edited by pherein; 09-11-2010 at 09:28 PM..

09-11-2010, 04:42 PM	#28
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Originally Posted by strato Im gonna keep it simple ..ITS THE UNION! what do expect its a brotherhood..im in one..also the fans are caught in the middle ..and that sucks... You know man they use to be- now they are exactly what they are supposedly against. The people at the top of the unions are extremely wealthy while the people they represent and who pay their salaries are not. Nothing more than a scam now.

09-12-2010, 10:29 AM	#29
SaintPauly Senior Citizen Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gulfport, MS Posts: 3,180 Blog Entries: 1	Private money.... Where did they get all that money? From the FANS. Yes they provided the initial investments, to build the team, but without the consumers, buying their products, they would be dead in the water. Here's another question. Let's say the owners decide to lock the players out, and there is no season in 2011. What happens to season ticket holders? Will they still have to buy a season package? Or will they get to keep their seats, and start paying the next season? Or will it all start over from zero holders? I'm serious with that question, what will be the procedure on this?
	What's popular is not always right, and what's right is not always popular.....

09-12-2010, 11:03 AM	#30
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Originally Posted by pherein Oh I know, I just dont think your right, and have met a couple of people who think the way you do, and know that no debate on the subject is going to change your views on the subject. Im just posting what I think. Im not going to debate it. No Problem man. It is okay for us to think differently, but one thing we agree on- GEAUX SAINTS!!!!