Intelligence.

BrooksMustGo · 12-07-2003, 07:42 PM

Billy, that is a salient and insightful post. It is also one of the better defenses of Brooks I\'ve ever seen you make on this board.

I just can\'t help but think this phrase when I think about Brooks, \"Hello Mr. Hot, I\'d like to introduce you to Mr. Cold. Oh my gosh! You\'re the same guy?!?\"

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by BrooksMustGo]

whowatches · 12-07-2003, 08:15 PM

Billy, you are right. I should not have included the point about the interviewing in my post. That\'s just a personal pet peeve of mine. I honestly try not to let it influence my evaluation of Brooks (or other athletes as well), but I can\'t help it. That point does dilute the rest of my argument, though. I do think that Brooks has not developed enough in the academics of the game. He should be able at this point in his career to read and adjust to defenses better than he should. He also should know better than to hold on to the ball as long as he does.

Is he the only qb with that problem? No. Do I think he should be cut? No. Do I think a legitimate threat of losing playing time would help? Yes.

JKool, dropping balls, fumbling, interceptions, etc. do link back to coaching and personel decisions. If a player is careless or unmotivated or lazy, the coach has the responsibilty to fix that problem. If this was the first or even the only game we\'d seen these problems, that would be different. But I honestly feel that certain players on the field have no real impetus to improve.

We talk about Parcells and the lack of talent on his team. I agree that there\'s only so far he can take them, but look at what he\'s done with shear will. I know that Haslett has fire. I watched him play. I\'d just love to see that fire in some of his players\' eyes. I feel like I\'m starting to see a little bit of it on the defense.

I\'m not calling for his job. I want to see the remainder of the season first.

JKool · 12-07-2003, 09:26 PM

Is Joe Horn unmotivated? Poorly coached?

He has let a few go this year. Don\'t get me wrong, I think he is a quality receiver, but Haz\'s inability to coach is reason he dropped some passes? It seems to me that it is what some people are saying.

I agree that coaching plays a role in wins and losses. It almost certainly does play a role in how disciplined a team is and even how quickly a team comes together. Thus, I agree with you Whowatches. However, I guess I\'m not as perceptive as others who seem to see that the coach is at fault in every mistake. I say, at best, it is a guess that the coach had some hand in an on-field error, like a dropped pass. I can\'t see how some people feel so confident in blaming the coach, when all I see is that the coach COULD HAVE MAYBE done something that MIGHT HAVE made that player not make that mistake.

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 09:40 PM

Here\'s nothing but the facts. No opinions included.

1. Joe Horn dropped a TD pass and had no help doing it.

2. Aaron Brooks had one fumble and had no help doing it.

3. Aaron Brooks had 3- fumbles that were caused by Tampa\'s defense.

4. Mitch Berger had a punt blocked that got returned to the Saints 1-yard line.

5. Aaron Brooks was sacked 7-times.

6. I didin\'t see Jim Haslett or any of the coaches make one mistake today.

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]

saint5221 · 12-07-2003, 09:59 PM

I say, at best, it is a guess that the coach had some hand in an on-field error, like a dropped pass. I can\'t see how some people feel so confident in blaming the coach, when all I see is that the coach COULD HAVE MAYBE done something that MIGHT HAVE made that player not make that mistake.

If the mistakes are isolated incidences then player error is a fine explanation. But when you see mistakes and errors become consistent, then it is a reflection on the coach and his staff. A coach cannot control the out come of every play but it is not by coincidence that some teams year in and year out have fewer penalties and commit fewer turnovers. Focus, concentration and disciplined play, the mental aspects of the game, are all within the realm of a coaches influence.

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:03 PM

If the mistakes are isolated incidences then player error is a fine explanation. But when you see mistakes and errors become consistent, then it is a reflection on the coach and his staff. A coach cannot control the out come of every play but it is not by coincidence that some teams year in and year out have fewer penalties and commit fewer turnovers. Focus, concentration and disciplined play, the mental aspects of the game, are all within the realm of a coaches influence

I\'m not buying that. If my job is to count marbles and I miscount, it\'s not my bosses fault. If he tells me to count \'em correctly next time and goes over the correct way to do it and I still miscount. Guess what? It ain\'t his fault !! It\'s still my fault !! The only thing you can fault my boss for is not firing me. Agree?

saint5221 · 12-07-2003, 10:04 PM

Billy have you ever coached at any level?

whowatches · 12-07-2003, 10:05 PM

Here\'s nothing but the facts. No opinions included.

1. Joe Horn dropped a TD pass and had no help doing it.

2. Aaron Brooks had one fumble and had no help doing it.

3. Aaron Brooks had 3- fumbles that were caused by Tampa\'s defense.

4. Mitch Berger had a punt blocked that got returned to the Saints 1-yard line.

5. Aaron Brooks was sacked 7-times.

6. I didin\'t see Jim Haslett or any of the coaches make one mistake today.

I agree with everything you just (I didn\'t actually \'see\' the game; I heard it).

BUT

Don\'t you think that number six is a little subjective? Sure, even if all of the playcalling was okay, don\'t you think that numbers one through five have a little to do with the coaching that happens during each week? I am honestly asking the question... I\'m not just trying to argue. We\'ve got to face the possiblity that Haslett does not possess the ability to keep a team focused or disciplined, right? Am I way off here?

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:08 PM

Billy have you ever coached at any level?

Nope but I have played. But, it don\'t take a rocket scientist to figure out the coach can\'t force a player to stop making mistakes. Do you have proof that it\'s Haslett\'s fault or are you just speculating?

whowatches · 12-07-2003, 10:13 PM

The only thing you can fault my boss for is not firing me. Agree?

I think this is what some of us are talking about. I\'m not saying that I want Has to start cutting everyone... lord knows he\'s not scared. But don\'t you think he could motivate Aaron, in particular, a little more with the threat of competition. I even think the receivers might benefit from this philosohpy as well. Why not give some of the younger guys more playing time if the starters can\'t get the job done. You accomplish two things: one, you give the younger guys some experience and two, you help bring some clarity to your veterans.

What do you think?

12-07-2003, 07:42 PM	#11
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Intelligence. Billy, that is a salient and insightful post. It is also one of the better defenses of Brooks I\'ve ever seen you make on this board. I just can\'t help but think this phrase when I think about Brooks, \"Hello Mr. Hot, I\'d like to introduce you to Mr. Cold. Oh my gosh! You\'re the same guy?!?\" [Edited on 8/12/2003 by BrooksMustGo]

12-07-2003, 08:15 PM	#12
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575	Intelligence. Billy, you are right. I should not have included the point about the interviewing in my post. That\'s just a personal pet peeve of mine. I honestly try not to let it influence my evaluation of Brooks (or other athletes as well), but I can\'t help it. That point does dilute the rest of my argument, though. I do think that Brooks has not developed enough in the academics of the game. He should be able at this point in his career to read and adjust to defenses better than he should. He also should know better than to hold on to the ball as long as he does. Is he the only qb with that problem? No. Do I think he should be cut? No. Do I think a legitimate threat of losing playing time would help? Yes. JKool, dropping balls, fumbling, interceptions, etc. do link back to coaching and personel decisions. If a player is careless or unmotivated or lazy, the coach has the responsibilty to fix that problem. If this was the first or even the only game we\'d seen these problems, that would be different. But I honestly feel that certain players on the field have no real impetus to improve. We talk about Parcells and the lack of talent on his team. I agree that there\'s only so far he can take them, but look at what he\'s done with shear will. I know that Haslett has fire. I watched him play. I\'d just love to see that fire in some of his players\' eyes. I feel like I\'m starting to see a little bit of it on the defense. I\'m not calling for his job. I want to see the remainder of the season first.
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575

12-07-2003, 09:26 PM	#13
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Intelligence. Is Joe Horn unmotivated? Poorly coached? He has let a few go this year. Don\'t get me wrong, I think he is a quality receiver, but Haz\'s inability to coach is reason he dropped some passes? It seems to me that it is what some people are saying. I agree that coaching plays a role in wins and losses. It almost certainly does play a role in how disciplined a team is and even how quickly a team comes together. Thus, I agree with you Whowatches. However, I guess I\'m not as perceptive as others who seem to see that the coach is at fault in every mistake. I say, at best, it is a guess that the coach had some hand in an on-field error, like a dropped pass. I can\'t see how some people feel so confident in blaming the coach, when all I see is that the coach COULD HAVE MAYBE done something that MIGHT HAVE made that player not make that mistake.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

12-07-2003, 09:40 PM	#14
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. Here\'s nothing but the facts. No opinions included. 1. Joe Horn dropped a TD pass and had no help doing it. 2. Aaron Brooks had one fumble and had no help doing it. 3. Aaron Brooks had 3- fumbles that were caused by Tampa\'s defense. 4. Mitch Berger had a punt blocked that got returned to the Saints 1-yard line. 5. Aaron Brooks was sacked 7-times. 6. I didin\'t see Jim Haslett or any of the coaches make one mistake today. [Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 09:59 PM	#15
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Intelligence. I say, at best, it is a guess that the coach had some hand in an on-field error, like a dropped pass. I can\'t see how some people feel so confident in blaming the coach, when all I see is that the coach COULD HAVE MAYBE done something that MIGHT HAVE made that player not make that mistake. If the mistakes are isolated incidences then player error is a fine explanation. But when you see mistakes and errors become consistent, then it is a reflection on the coach and his staff. A coach cannot control the out come of every play but it is not by coincidence that some teams year in and year out have fewer penalties and commit fewer turnovers. Focus, concentration and disciplined play, the mental aspects of the game, are all within the realm of a coaches influence.
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

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12-07-2003, 10:03 PM	#16
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. If the mistakes are isolated incidences then player error is a fine explanation. But when you see mistakes and errors become consistent, then it is a reflection on the coach and his staff. A coach cannot control the out come of every play but it is not by coincidence that some teams year in and year out have fewer penalties and commit fewer turnovers. Focus, concentration and disciplined play, the mental aspects of the game, are all within the realm of a coaches influence I\'m not buying that. If my job is to count marbles and I miscount, it\'s not my bosses fault. If he tells me to count \'em correctly next time and goes over the correct way to do it and I still miscount. Guess what? It ain\'t his fault !! It\'s still my fault !! The only thing you can fault my boss for is not firing me. Agree?
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 10:04 PM	#17
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Intelligence. Billy have you ever coached at any level?
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

12-07-2003, 10:05 PM	#18
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575	Intelligence. Here\'s nothing but the facts. No opinions included. 1. Joe Horn dropped a TD pass and had no help doing it. 2. Aaron Brooks had one fumble and had no help doing it. 3. Aaron Brooks had 3- fumbles that were caused by Tampa\'s defense. 4. Mitch Berger had a punt blocked that got returned to the Saints 1-yard line. 5. Aaron Brooks was sacked 7-times. 6. I didin\'t see Jim Haslett or any of the coaches make one mistake today. I agree with everything you just (I didn\'t actually \'see\' the game; I heard it). BUT Don\'t you think that number six is a little subjective? Sure, even if all of the playcalling was okay, don\'t you think that numbers one through five have a little to do with the coaching that happens during each week? I am honestly asking the question... I\'m not just trying to argue. We\'ve got to face the possiblity that Haslett does not possess the ability to keep a team focused or disciplined, right? Am I way off here?
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575

12-07-2003, 10:08 PM	#19
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. Billy have you ever coached at any level? Nope but I have played. But, it don\'t take a rocket scientist to figure out the coach can\'t force a player to stop making mistakes. Do you have proof that it\'s Haslett\'s fault or are you just speculating?
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 10:13 PM	#20
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575	Intelligence. The only thing you can fault my boss for is not firing me. Agree? I think this is what some of us are talking about. I\'m not saying that I want Has to start cutting everyone... lord knows he\'s not scared. But don\'t you think he could motivate Aaron, in particular, a little more with the threat of competition. I even think the receivers might benefit from this philosohpy as well. Why not give some of the younger guys more playing time if the starters can\'t get the job done. You accomplish two things: one, you give the younger guys some experience and two, you help bring some clarity to your veterans. What do you think?
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575