BillyC

Saint5221-- I agree that looking over an extended period of time is a good judge on whether coaching is to blame for players commiting penalties.

Saints penalties = 83

Cowboys penalties = 76

What does this tell us?

WhoDat

Billy, JKool said:

\"1. Proof that AB is a moron must be given. I challenge someone to tell me what the connection between fumbling and intelligence is. If that cannot be provided, then some other argument for why Brooks is a moron must be given, or shut up about that point.\"

You replied:

\"Good luck on those questions, because I completely agree with you, but prepare to be frustrated by the responses you get. \"

So you completely agreed with the comment that there is no correlation between fumbling and being dumb and backed JKool\'s challenge to show proof as to Brooks\' lack of intelligence. I did that. Continuing to make the same sloppy mistakes over and over and over again in one\'s job - much more so than your peers - is enough to me to question a person\'s intelligence. That is reinforced by the fact that professionals paid to evaluate just about everything about football players almost all agreed in their scouting reports that Brooks is not bright. But you\'re right, you and JKool probably know more than all of us, all of the scouts, and pretty much everyone other than Jim Haslett who watched this guy play football.


As to your comments about December, all you\'re doing is showing how myopic your views are. Haslett has this team 30-19 in games played in the first three quarters of the season. They are 3-10 in the last quarter of the season. Show me ONE other coach in the league with those types of numbers. The only guy who may even be close would be Wannstadt, and he is in the hot seat. If you don\'t want to blame the coaches, then whose fault is it? What is the problem? If the Saints were 3-10 right now would you blame the coaches? OF COURSE YOU WOULD, but because these games have occurred in the pivotal part of the season over 3 1/4 seasons it\'s OK? Sure Billy, you\'re right. Man, do you even watch football?

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

BillyC

While you are busy posting under this thread, maybe you should go back and correct that incorrect list of penalyzed teams in your other thread. Don\'t want you to look FOOLISH>

WhoDat

Wow - I shut you down so badly that you couldn\'t even comment. Impressive.

BillyC

You fogot to sort the offensive penalties WhoDat. My stats are for the offense not for the total team. Go check it out. Can ya do that? Post the penalties for the teams and not just the names. Please do that for me?

saintz08

[img] C:\\My Documents\\My Pictures\\dorothyandarron.jpg[/img]

A picture is worth a thousand words ........

[img]C:\\My Documents\\My Pictures\\1026two.jpg [/img]


[Edited on 8/12/2003 by saintz08]

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by saintz08]

JKool

Ok. I never claimed to know more about football than anyone (except maybe that crazy guy who hangs out on the street in front of my place). Why am I being accused of having made such a claim? Boy, I was merely trying to focus the discussion.

Anyway, I asked for an argument that Brooks is dumb. I got some answers, which is what I was looking for. Here are some thoughts on the answers I got:

Here are three arguments:

1. He keeps making the same mistakes. Ok, that is usually a sign that someone is dumb. However, in this case, I\'m not sure that fumbling constitutes making the same mistake. There are many reasons for a fumble. Sometimes a fumble is not the fault of the ball carrier - defenses train to strip balls. Of course, some people hold on to the ball better than others - running style, strength, or general feel for where the defense is can contribute to this. Thus, there may be some connection between fumbling and coaching - teach players better techniques for holding on to the ball! Furthermore, failing to learn such techniques could be evidence for some stupidity. What I suppose I meant to say is this: every fumble is different. To claim that there is a fumbling trend may be true, but what kind of fumbles were they? A sting of the same kind of fumble would lend some evidence to the claim Brooks is dumb, but simply having a string of fumbles is NOT such evidence. Furthermore, a sting of fumbles ALONE is not evidence for a problem with coaching either. That\'s all I meant to say, and if I wasn\'t very clear, I apologize. I don\'t think anyone has answered that challenge though.

2. The scouts say Brooks is dumb. Ok, that is the kind of thing I had in mind. This is an argument that has nothing to do with fumbling the ball, and that is what I asked for. I\'d be interested in a link to these scouting reports, but on the whole I take this to be a decent argument.

3. Some pictures that my browser won\'t open. I agree a picture can be pretty compelling, but it is hard to see the point when I don\'t know what the pictures are even of.

My other challenge was to people who thought that coaching was at the heart of our losses. Aparantly, asking this question makes me a moron. We are all supposed to know that history plays a role in the NFL. I guess, I didn\'t know that. I thought that independent events (like games) were at least possibly decided based on different factors. Now, I will agree that psychological effects can carry over from game to game (as can injuries of the body). Presumably, this is the part that is supposed to make us believe that Haz is a terrible coach - he cannot win in the fourth quarter and he cannot win in December. He is failing to motivate the team. I\'m not sure whether or not I buy this argument. What I said is this: if you want to make this argument, you need to show that there is a common element to the losses in the fourth quarter and in December. The simple fact that we did lose in December and in the fourth quarter could be the result of any number of things - to say that it is the coaches requires more analysis. I DID NOT SAY THAT IT WAS NOT THE COACHING; what I did was ask for some more evidence. I think I got some from these posts, but I am still a bit unconvinced. The argument that Haz is the only coach with such a foul record in December and in the fourth quarter is the kind of thing that is compelling, but I don\'t believe it yet - perhaps someone could shed a bit more light on why I should believe that (and I am not predisposed to not believing it, I just don\'t yet).

I thank all of those who gave thoughtful replies. I appreciate the discussion. To those people who like to make it personal, I don\'t know what to say. I just wanted to talk about these two points.

:P

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

saintz08

Here you go Jkool :

1999 Packer Draft: Aaron Brooks, Quarterback
Virginia/ 6:03.2-200/ Newport News, Virginia

What the scouts are saying . . .

AFC scout: \"He\'s not a detail guy. I get the feeling that Brooks isn\'t a worker or a studier. That scares you for a guy who\'s going to get barely any practice reps and will have to learn in the classroom.\"

NFC scout: \"Maybe there\'s some hope for him as a wide receiver. He\'s a great athlete. Horrible quarterback.\"


I would assume the detail the A.F.C. scout was refering to was the little detail of holding on to the ball .

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

JKool

Thank you 08.