Intelligence.

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:13 PM

Don\'t you think that number six is a little subjective? Sure, even if all of the playcalling was okay, don\'t you think that numbers one through five have a little to do with the coaching that happens during each week?

In all honesty I saw no mistake TODAY that was coaching. Now, I can question some of the coaching decisions, but that wouldn\'t be factual. My intent was to show that coaching wasn\'t the reason we lost TODAY. I\'ve had enough of Haslett and I want a change, but I\'m going to call it like I see it.,

saint5221 · 12-07-2003, 10:22 PM

I\'m not buying that. If my job is to count marbles and I miscount, it\'s not my bosses fault. If he tells me to count \'em correctly next time and goes over the correct way to do it and I still miscount. Guess what? It ain\'t his fault !! It\'s still my fault !! The only thing you can fault my boss for is not firing me. Agree?

ÃƒÆ’Ã‚â€šÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â*
Well the coaching really comes in in how you go over the correct way to count the marbles. Some employees will take to counting marbles quick as can be, others will have a lot of trouble, some you will have to teach to count. The type of environment you provide the employees to count marbles in will determine a lot about how well the counts go. If every one one the marble line is talking to each other watching tv etc, the count probably won\'t be as good as if you are able to have an environment where there is no other focus other than the marbles. How you motivate the employees is another factor. A marble count line with incentives and a sense of pride at good counts will probably do better than one that doesn\'t seem to care. Coaching matters Billy and mistakes can be influenced by coaching not eliminated but controlled.
[Edited on 12/8/2003 by saint5221]

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:27 PM

But don\'t you think he could motivate Aaron, in particular, a little more with the threat of competition. I even think the receivers might benefit from this philosohpy as well. Why not give some of the younger guys more playing time if the starters can\'t get the job done.

That\'s possible. It\'s certainly worked in other situations. I\'ve all for it, but not because I want Brooks cut, but because I think he might help him out in the long run. Even though everyone thinks Brooks has had more than enough time, that just isn\'t true. Brooks has actually played good in the passing game, it\'s just he\'s been fumbling too much. This is a new problem and is very correctable.

I\'m all for seeing what Bouman can do. If he comes in and does a good job and struggles a little bit. I\'ll be here defending Bouman.

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]

whowatches · 12-07-2003, 10:34 PM

I don\'t want Brooks cut either; I just want him to have the proper coaching and influences around him to help him develop.

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:34 PM

saint5221 -- There\'s some truth to what you are saying. However, mistakes like jumping offsides, dropping passes, and commiting personal fouls, hardly need much coaching. This is something you learn playing pee-wee football.

This isn\'t something that is new to any NFL player. They know not to do it. They know how not to do it. They need to stop doing it. Short of Haslett holding a gun to their head, I don\'t know what he can do.

I hold the player MUCH MORE responsible than Haslett that\'s for SURE.

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]

WhoDat · 12-07-2003, 10:43 PM

Here\'s a question: If a coworker of yours made a big mistake at work, and your boss told him not to make that kind of mistake anymore, and he agreed that it was something he had to correct, yet every day, when he came into the office, he made the same mistake again - would you question his intelligence? I sure would, and I certainly wouldn\'t follow his lead.

So how can you let Brooks off the hook again? I mean, we\'re not talking about a fumble or two, we\'re talking about two fumbles EVERY game for the last MONTH. Brooks led the league in fumbles coming into this game, he is now head and shoulders above.

Billy talks about how this is only his third year. If you count preseason that\'s 60 starts. 60! And he\'s still making these kind of mistakes? C\'mon. Now, go ahead and make your comparison to Favre or whatever other QB you want, but I can tell you the difference right now: For every game that Favre has where he throws three INTS, he has three of four where he plays great and makes things happen on his own. Great games like that are the EXCEPTION for Brooks. Careless play is the rule. I\'ve never met a person who was just careless in his job that I also believed to be intelligent. I mean, even his scouting report says he\'s dumb. Look it up. It was the knock on him in school, and it\'s the knock now.

Last year when he struggled you heard announcers saying, \"Well, he\'s not playing great now but he\'s young and he\'ll come around.\" Now they\'re saying, \"AB just need to hang onto the ball. You cannot commit turnovers like that and win games.\" The shine is off and Brooks\' seat is getting warmer.

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:47 PM

WhoDat -- I ask you who is letting Brooks off the hook? Because I don\'t want to cut him, that means I\'m letting him off the hook? What the hell are you talking about?

Is the only thing that I can say that will me me RIGHT in YOUR eyes, is that Brooks should be cut? PLEASE answer that question WHODAT.

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]

WhoDat · 12-07-2003, 11:08 PM

No. I don\'t think he should be cut. I do think he should be dealt somewhere else and the Saints should find someone else to pilot their ship.

You said that people shouldn\'t argue that Brooks is not intelligent. I\'m explaining to you exactly why their argument is relevant. Also, if you think history doesn\'t play a role in the NFL... well...

Say what you will. If you want to look at any one game in a vacuum then maybe you have a shot at making that argument. However, if you look at Haslett\'s record in the last four games of the season since he\'s been in NO, I believe you will see something like this: 2-2, 0-4, 1-3, 0-1 (thus far). He is 3-10 in the most important quarter of the season since he has been in NO. If that is acceptible by you, then I will steal one from Saintfan and just say that I\'m happy that you\'re not making the decisions.

saint5221 · 12-07-2003, 11:15 PM

However, mistakes like jumping offsides, dropping passes, and commiting personal fouls, hardly need much coaching. This is something you learn playing pee-wee football.

This isn\'t something that is new to any NFL player. They know not to do it. They know how not to do it. They need to stop doing it. Short of Haslett holding a gun to their head, I don\'t know what he can do.

Regardless of how long players have been exposed to something the play on the field says there is a problem. The standard I think that is fair to use is over the course of a season is something consistently happening? In this instance the answer is yes, penalties and turnovers have been a constant problem for this team. I am not at Hasletts practices so I can\'t say what exactly the cause or the correction is. If I were at Hasletts practices I\'m not saying I would be able to fix it either. But it is clear enough that a problem exists and it is a coaches job to deal with such things.

If a team exhibits a tendency over a sustained period of time that is not by chance it is by some effect. Every team is different and no one routine will work on all teams, thats one of the things that makes coaching so hard. You may have the turnover problem licked for years then along comes a team that just can not seem to hang onto the ball, as a coach it is your job to figure out something to do about it. I do know concentration and attention to detail is a large factor in such areas and these things can be worked on. The practice environment establishes a tone that carries over into games and every game is a test of the effectiveness of that practice environment.

Just so you know where I am coming from I have for several years and currently am a head basketball coach at the middle and high school level. I in now way profess to have any of the knowledge or experience necessary for coaching football or any sport at the professional level. But some of what we are discussing is very familiar to me and are problems facing any coach at any level.

[Edited on 12/8/2003 by saint5221]

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 11:15 PM

You amaze me. First of all. I did not say:

You said that people shouldn\'t argue that Brooks is not intelligent

Here\'s what I really said. Why do you need to spin everything? You have no idea about Brooks intelligence. Show me some facts and not opinions?

If someone bases intelligence on interview with the media they might need to rethink that arguement. Being in front of a microphone or camera makes some people nerveous and they come across as ignorant or dumb. Take Dan Quail for instance. He come off as a complete moron, but he was vice-president, so if he was dumb he was smarter in life and more successful than any of us. Come on people use you head. You can\'t be judging people like that.

If you want to think there is some voo-doo curse on the Saints in the month of December. Then by all means -- Do That !! -- I perfer to look at it on a game to game basis and see if coaching is the problem or something else. It could be more to it than the curse.

12-07-2003, 10:13 PM	#21
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. Don\'t you think that number six is a little subjective? Sure, even if all of the playcalling was okay, don\'t you think that numbers one through five have a little to do with the coaching that happens during each week? In all honesty I saw no mistake TODAY that was coaching. Now, I can question some of the coaching decisions, but that wouldn\'t be factual. My intent was to show that coaching wasn\'t the reason we lost TODAY. I\'ve had enough of Haslett and I want a change, but I\'m going to call it like I see it.,
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 10:22 PM	#22
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Intelligence. I\'m not buying that. If my job is to count marbles and I miscount, it\'s not my bosses fault. If he tells me to count \'em correctly next time and goes over the correct way to do it and I still miscount. Guess what? It ain\'t his fault !! It\'s still my fault !! The only thing you can fault my boss for is not firing me. Agree? ÃƒÆ’Ã‚â€šÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â* Well the coaching really comes in in how you go over the correct way to count the marbles. Some employees will take to counting marbles quick as can be, others will have a lot of trouble, some you will have to teach to count. The type of environment you provide the employees to count marbles in will determine a lot about how well the counts go. If every one one the marble line is talking to each other watching tv etc, the count probably won\'t be as good as if you are able to have an environment where there is no other focus other than the marbles. How you motivate the employees is another factor. A marble count line with incentives and a sense of pride at good counts will probably do better than one that doesn\'t seem to care. Coaching matters Billy and mistakes can be influenced by coaching not eliminated but controlled. [Edited on 12/8/2003 by saint5221]
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

12-07-2003, 10:27 PM	#23
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. But don\'t you think he could motivate Aaron, in particular, a little more with the threat of competition. I even think the receivers might benefit from this philosohpy as well. Why not give some of the younger guys more playing time if the starters can\'t get the job done. That\'s possible. It\'s certainly worked in other situations. I\'ve all for it, but not because I want Brooks cut, but because I think he might help him out in the long run. Even though everyone thinks Brooks has had more than enough time, that just isn\'t true. Brooks has actually played good in the passing game, it\'s just he\'s been fumbling too much. This is a new problem and is very correctable. I\'m all for seeing what Bouman can do. If he comes in and does a good job and struggles a little bit. I\'ll be here defending Bouman. [Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 10:34 PM	#24
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575	Intelligence. I don\'t want Brooks cut either; I just want him to have the proper coaching and influences around him to help him develop.
whowatches 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 575

12-07-2003, 10:34 PM	#25
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. saint5221 -- There\'s some truth to what you are saying. However, mistakes like jumping offsides, dropping passes, and commiting personal fouls, hardly need much coaching. This is something you learn playing pee-wee football. This isn\'t something that is new to any NFL player. They know not to do it. They know how not to do it. They need to stop doing it. Short of Haslett holding a gun to their head, I don\'t know what he can do. I hold the player MUCH MORE responsible than Haslett that\'s for SURE. [Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

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12-07-2003, 10:43 PM	#26
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Intelligence. Here\'s a question: If a coworker of yours made a big mistake at work, and your boss told him not to make that kind of mistake anymore, and he agreed that it was something he had to correct, yet every day, when he came into the office, he made the same mistake again - would you question his intelligence? I sure would, and I certainly wouldn\'t follow his lead. So how can you let Brooks off the hook again? I mean, we\'re not talking about a fumble or two, we\'re talking about two fumbles EVERY game for the last MONTH. Brooks led the league in fumbles coming into this game, he is now head and shoulders above. Billy talks about how this is only his third year. If you count preseason that\'s 60 starts. 60! And he\'s still making these kind of mistakes? C\'mon. Now, go ahead and make your comparison to Favre or whatever other QB you want, but I can tell you the difference right now: For every game that Favre has where he throws three INTS, he has three of four where he plays great and makes things happen on his own. Great games like that are the EXCEPTION for Brooks. Careless play is the rule. I\'ve never met a person who was just careless in his job that I also believed to be intelligent. I mean, even his scouting report says he\'s dumb. Look it up. It was the knock on him in school, and it\'s the knock now. Last year when he struggled you heard announcers saying, \"Well, he\'s not playing great now but he\'s young and he\'ll come around.\" Now they\'re saying, \"AB just need to hang onto the ball. You cannot commit turnovers like that and win games.\" The shine is off and Brooks\' seat is getting warmer.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

12-07-2003, 10:47 PM	#27
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. WhoDat -- I ask you who is letting Brooks off the hook? Because I don\'t want to cut him, that means I\'m letting him off the hook? What the hell are you talking about? Is the only thing that I can say that will me me RIGHT in YOUR eyes, is that Brooks should be cut? PLEASE answer that question WHODAT. [Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 11:08 PM	#28
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Intelligence. No. I don\'t think he should be cut. I do think he should be dealt somewhere else and the Saints should find someone else to pilot their ship. You said that people shouldn\'t argue that Brooks is not intelligent. I\'m explaining to you exactly why their argument is relevant. Also, if you think history doesn\'t play a role in the NFL... well... Say what you will. If you want to look at any one game in a vacuum then maybe you have a shot at making that argument. However, if you look at Haslett\'s record in the last four games of the season since he\'s been in NO, I believe you will see something like this: 2-2, 0-4, 1-3, 0-1 (thus far). He is 3-10 in the most important quarter of the season since he has been in NO. If that is acceptible by you, then I will steal one from Saintfan and just say that I\'m happy that you\'re not making the decisions.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

12-07-2003, 11:15 PM	#29
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Intelligence. However, mistakes like jumping offsides, dropping passes, and commiting personal fouls, hardly need much coaching. This is something you learn playing pee-wee football. This isn\'t something that is new to any NFL player. They know not to do it. They know how not to do it. They need to stop doing it. Short of Haslett holding a gun to their head, I don\'t know what he can do. Regardless of how long players have been exposed to something the play on the field says there is a problem. The standard I think that is fair to use is over the course of a season is something consistently happening? In this instance the answer is yes, penalties and turnovers have been a constant problem for this team. I am not at Hasletts practices so I can\'t say what exactly the cause or the correction is. If I were at Hasletts practices I\'m not saying I would be able to fix it either. But it is clear enough that a problem exists and it is a coaches job to deal with such things. If a team exhibits a tendency over a sustained period of time that is not by chance it is by some effect. Every team is different and no one routine will work on all teams, thats one of the things that makes coaching so hard. You may have the turnover problem licked for years then along comes a team that just can not seem to hang onto the ball, as a coach it is your job to figure out something to do about it. I do know concentration and attention to detail is a large factor in such areas and these things can be worked on. The practice environment establishes a tone that carries over into games and every game is a test of the effectiveness of that practice environment. Just so you know where I am coming from I have for several years and currently am a head basketball coach at the middle and high school level. I in now way profess to have any of the knowledge or experience necessary for coaching football or any sport at the professional level. But some of what we are discussing is very familiar to me and are problems facing any coach at any level. [Edited on 12/8/2003 by saint5221]
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

12-07-2003, 11:15 PM	#30
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Intelligence. You amaze me. First of all. I did not say: You said that people shouldn\'t argue that Brooks is not intelligent Here\'s what I really said. Why do you need to spin everything? You have no idea about Brooks intelligence. Show me some facts and not opinions? If someone bases intelligence on interview with the media they might need to rethink that arguement. Being in front of a microphone or camera makes some people nerveous and they come across as ignorant or dumb. Take Dan Quail for instance. He come off as a complete moron, but he was vice-president, so if he was dumb he was smarter in life and more successful than any of us. Come on people use you head. You can\'t be judging people like that. If you want to think there is some voo-doo curse on the Saints in the month of December. Then by all means -- Do That !! -- I perfer to look at it on a game to game basis and see if coaching is the problem or something else. It could be more to it than the curse.
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842