The Union Weighs in On Player Punishments

TheOak · 05-03-2012, 03:15 PM

You can put all the periods you like.

With collective bargaining, right to appeal to a higher level, and proof of punishment becomes 600 shades of gray.

saintfan · 05-03-2012, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

You can put all the periods you like.

With collective bargaining, right to appeal to a higher level, and proof of punishment becomes 600 shades of gray.

I don't deny the shades of gray. And I'm no lawyer. I do however know that "at will" doesn't apply.

I maintain that if Roger wants to in essence "terminate" Vilma for 16 games or 1 he should be required to show evidence of why, at the very least to Vilma, and this has not been done. It isn't right. Period.

TheOak · 05-04-2012, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I don't deny the shades of gray. And I'm no lawyer. I do however know that "at will" doesn't apply.

I maintain that if Roger wants to in essence "terminate" Vilma for 16 games or 1 he should be required to show evidence of why, at the very least to Vilma, and this has not been done. It isn't right. Period.

Well lol to be fair to reality. Right n legal go hand in hand about as often as proof n guilt.

Guilty people walk free everyday, not because they were innocent, or there was not proof of their guilt... but because they had a better lawyer.

TheOak · 05-04-2012, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I don't deny the shades of gray. And I'm no lawyer. I do however know that "at will" doesn't apply.

I maintain that if Roger wants to in essence "terminate" Vilma for 16 games or 1 he should be required to show evidence of why, at the very least to Vilma, and this has not been done. It isn't right. Period.

Actually "at will" does apply here. From the 2011 CBA.

1 5. INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional
football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest
and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw
or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a brib e offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling
activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/ or to terminate this contract.

The NFLPA gave Goodell all encompassing power based on his "judgement/opinion".

If the NFLPA takes this to court, a judge is not going to decide weather the punishment was too harsh or not. The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him.

saintfan · 05-04-2012, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Actually "at will" does apply here. From the 2011 CBA.

1 5. INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional
football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest
and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw
or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a brib e offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling
activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/ or to terminate this contract.

The NFLPA gave Goodell all encompassing power based on his "judgement/opinion".

If the NFLPA takes this to court, a judge is not going to decide weather the punishment was too harsh or not. The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him.

Again I'm no lawyer, but the difference, in my opinion, is justification. Goodell cannot just randomly pull a player from a roster "Because He Wants To". And from all that I can see, we may have breached a situation where this all powerful person's power will come in to question.

CAN Roger do what he has done without providing evidence? That remains to be seen. "at will" is pretty cut and dry. The situation Vilma and Smith find themselves in at the moment? Not so much...not yet...

SaintsBro · 05-04-2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

If the NFLPA takes this to court, a judge is not going to decide weather the punishment was too harsh or not. The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him.

Exactly -- the judge is going to be asked to rule on whether or not Goodell has the right under this contract to "reasonably judge" on player behavior, without sufficient proof of guilt -- which is another way of saying, what exactly his "rights" that this contract bestowed on Goodell are. The suit will be to ask the court to determine that legal question, not to change the punishments or make them less, or say whether they were too harsh or too lenient. And as a part of discovery on the case, that proof is going to have to come out as evidence. Which the NFL does not want.

But really, the p's and q's of the court case doesn't matter as much to me. It's about delaying the suspensions, and it's about forcing the league to show their hand, to get this matter out in the open so that it's transparent, and so this thing blows up in the NFL's face as a PR nightmare. And of course, if Vilma or somebody else is innocent, then I support that right to fight it in court. Until which time as they are actually shown to my eyes to be guilty, at which point I will gladly throw them under the bus if that's where the facts lead.

pherein · 05-04-2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him.

Not really, they look at if he violated those rights bestowed upon him. Vilma just has to show probable cause.
If a judge see not evidence that shows Vilma's involvement, and that Godell didn't "fine Player in a reasonable amount",
that is probable cause, and it goes to trial.

TheOak · 05-04-2012, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by pherein

Not really, they look at if he violated those rights bestowed upon him. Vilma just has to show probable cause.
If a judge see not evidence that shows Vilma's involvement, and that Godell didn't "fine Player in a reasonable amount",
that is probable cause, and it goes to trial.

This one caption is the problem.

"reasonably judged by the League Commissioner "

Reasonably being extremely subjective. While you and I see the punishment as unreasonable, if the NFL did a poll, i would be willing to bet 95% of Atlanta and Minnesota fans would say it is reasonable. probably a 70% for the other 29 teams fans. We lose heavily in the court of public opinion.

Now throw the issue of "player safety" on the tail end of reasonable, what Judge or jury is going to say a suspension is unreasonable. Termination... maybe. You get a Judge or jury that think football is a barbaric sport and there is nothing unreasonable when it comes to making the game safer....

Its how you spin it my friend, and this is soooo easily spun out of our favor.

Please do not misconstrue any of my comments or postings. I am playing devils advocate because that is the only way to fully understand which route or obstacles could come up.

I have absolutely NO problem with bounty programs.. None, zilch, nada... if you are going to tell me 10k is going to make someone that makes 1M a year preform better ill tell you we just made the jump to ludicrous speed.

If you are going to tell me that only 4 players in the NFL are guilty, we just made the jump to double ludicrous speed.

if you are going to tell me that Harrison, Suh, or LT need $ to try to take a QB out of the game.... Well that's just crazy talk.

05-03-2012, 03:27 PM	#2
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by x626xBlack You can put all the periods you like. With collective bargaining, right to appeal to a higher level, and proof of punishment becomes 600 shades of gray. I don't deny the shades of gray. And I'm no lawyer. I do however know that "at will" doesn't apply. I maintain that if Roger wants to in essence "terminate" Vilma for 16 games or 1 he should be required to show evidence of why, at the very least to Vilma, and this has not been done. It isn't right. Period. TheOak and pherein like this.

05-04-2012, 04:31 AM	#3
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,039	Originally Posted by saintfan I don't deny the shades of gray. And I'm no lawyer. I do however know that "at will" doesn't apply. I maintain that if Roger wants to in essence "terminate" Vilma for 16 games or 1 he should be required to show evidence of why, at the very least to Vilma, and this has not been done. It isn't right. Period. Well lol to be fair to reality. Right n legal go hand in hand about as often as proof n guilt. Guilty people walk free everyday, not because they were innocent, or there was not proof of their guilt... but because they had a better lawyer. pherein likes this.

05-04-2012, 07:22 AM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,039	Originally Posted by saintfan I don't deny the shades of gray. And I'm no lawyer. I do however know that "at will" doesn't apply. I maintain that if Roger wants to in essence "terminate" Vilma for 16 games or 1 he should be required to show evidence of why, at the very least to Vilma, and this has not been done. It isn't right. Period. Actually "at will" does apply here. From the 2011 CBA. 1 5. INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a brib e offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/ or to terminate this contract. The NFLPA gave Goodell all encompassing power based on his "judgement/opinion". If the NFLPA takes this to court, a judge is not going to decide weather the punishment was too harsh or not. The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

05-04-2012, 08:07 AM	#5
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by x626xBlack Actually "at will" does apply here. From the 2011 CBA. 1 5. INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a brib e offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/ or to terminate this contract. The NFLPA gave Goodell all encompassing power based on his "judgement/opinion". If the NFLPA takes this to court, a judge is not going to decide weather the punishment was too harsh or not. The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him. Again I'm no lawyer, but the difference, in my opinion, is justification. Goodell cannot just randomly pull a player from a roster "Because He Wants To". And from all that I can see, we may have breached a situation where this all powerful person's power will come in to question. CAN Roger do what he has done without providing evidence? That remains to be seen. "at will" is pretty cut and dry. The situation Vilma and Smith find themselves in at the moment? Not so much...not yet... pherein likes this.

05-04-2012, 08:09 AM	#6
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by x626xBlack If the NFLPA takes this to court, a judge is not going to decide weather the punishment was too harsh or not. The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him. Exactly -- the judge is going to be asked to rule on whether or not Goodell has the right under this contract to "reasonably judge" on player behavior, without sufficient proof of guilt -- which is another way of saying, what exactly his "rights" that this contract bestowed on Goodell are. The suit will be to ask the court to determine that legal question, not to change the punishments or make them less, or say whether they were too harsh or too lenient. And as a part of discovery on the case, that proof is going to have to come out as evidence. Which the NFL does not want. But really, the p's and q's of the court case doesn't matter as much to me. It's about delaying the suspensions, and it's about forcing the league to show their hand, to get this matter out in the open so that it's transparent, and so this thing blows up in the NFL's face as a PR nightmare. And of course, if Vilma or somebody else is innocent, then I support that right to fight it in court. Until which time as they are actually shown to my eyes to be guilty, at which point I will gladly throw them under the bus if that's where the facts lead. pherein likes this.

05-03-2012, 03:15 PM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,039	You can put all the periods you like. With collective bargaining, right to appeal to a higher level, and proof of punishment becomes 600 shades of gray.

05-04-2012, 08:09 AM	#7
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by x626xBlack The judge is going to rule on weather Goodell has the rights that this contract bestowed on him. Not really, they look at if he violated those rights bestowed upon him. Vilma just has to show probable cause. If a judge see not evidence that shows Vilma's involvement, and that Godell didn't "fine Player in a reasonable amount", that is probable cause, and it goes to trial.
	Last edited by pherein; 05-04-2012 at 08:14 AM..

05-04-2012, 08:45 AM	#8
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,039	Originally Posted by pherein Not really, they look at if he violated those rights bestowed upon him. Vilma just has to show probable cause. If a judge see not evidence that shows Vilma's involvement, and that Godell didn't "fine Player in a reasonable amount", that is probable cause, and it goes to trial. This one caption is the problem. "reasonably judged by the League Commissioner " Reasonably being extremely subjective. While you and I see the punishment as unreasonable, if the NFL did a poll, i would be willing to bet 95% of Atlanta and Minnesota fans would say it is reasonable. probably a 70% for the other 29 teams fans. We lose heavily in the court of public opinion. Now throw the issue of "player safety" on the tail end of reasonable, what Judge or jury is going to say a suspension is unreasonable. Termination... maybe. You get a Judge or jury that think football is a barbaric sport and there is nothing unreasonable when it comes to making the game safer.... Its how you spin it my friend, and this is soooo easily spun out of our favor. Please do not misconstrue any of my comments or postings. I am playing devils advocate because that is the only way to fully understand which route or obstacles could come up. I have absolutely NO problem with bounty programs.. None, zilch, nada... if you are going to tell me 10k is going to make someone that makes 1M a year preform better ill tell you we just made the jump to ludicrous speed. If you are going to tell me that only 4 players in the NFL are guilty, we just made the jump to double ludicrous speed. if you are going to tell me that Harrison, Suh, or LT need $ to try to take a QB out of the game.... Well that's just crazy talk. pherein likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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