Graham is not better than Gronkowski

burningmetal · 06-25-2012, 05:18 AM

Stats definitely don't tell the whole story, but even if they did, c'mon... Jimmy broke Kellen Winslow's record and then Gronkowski Passed him by about what, 10 yards later that day? The only area where Gronk was fairly significantly ahead was in TD's. That's only because every time the Patriots got in the red zone, or near it, they were throwing to him. You never had to wonder who the first target was. It was always going to be him, and if someone else ended up with a TD it was only because Gronk was probably triple teamed. The beauty of our offense is we have so many polished weapons, Brees can pick and choose.

But all stats aside, the most dynamic playmaking TE I saw last year was Jimmy Graham. He might not be a polished blocker, but he now has just three combined years of playing football in his entire life. Give him a break, he'll get there. Though I think Gronkowski is a total moron, he's a good player, I'll give him that. But he unquestionably benefits from a TE oriented system, whereas we're more wide open and thus get more out of everyone.

rdanderson91 · 06-25-2012, 05:18 AM

Jump at the NFL Combine feat. Glee - YouTube

Bout 30 seconds in is just one reason graham is better. That and his 4.5 speed compared to gronks 4.65-4.7

burningmetal · 06-25-2012, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by rdanderson91

Jump at the NFL Combine feat. Glee - YouTube

Bout 30 seconds in is just one reason graham is better. That and his 4.5 speed compared to gronks 4.65-4.7

Yeah, Jimmy is freakishly athletic. The only TE perhaps in the history of the league who remotely compares is Vernon Davis. But even he takes a back seat to Graham, in my opinion. Davis is very fast for a TE but he doesn't consistently make plays, and he's been playing the game a lot longer than Jimmy.

I predict a couple years from now this subject will not be worth discussing. Jimmy Graham is going to be light years ahead of everyone else.

Edit: Want to clarify that I think Davis is the only TE who compares athletically, not in overall play. Obviously Gronkowski, Gates (when healthy), Tony Gonzalez in his prime and many others are, or were, better than Davis. Jimmy is in that upper echelon, but Vernon (except against us) just doesn't bring it enough.

pherein · 06-25-2012, 06:58 AM

Graham and Gronk are pretty even.

Gronk is a better runner after the catch, and run blocker. Graham is faster but lacks some running skills. Gronk runs like a power RB,
Kind of a TE/RB hybrid.

Graham is a better pass catcher, and pass blocker. Gronk can't make the one handed grabs or athletic dives Graham does.
A TE/WR hybrid.

depending on what your offense needs take your pick, but they are pretty even to me.

Danno · 06-25-2012, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by pherein

Graham and Gronk are pretty even.

Gronk is a better runner after the catch, and run blocker. Graham is faster but lacks some running skills. Gronk runs like a power RB,
Kind of a TE/RB hybrid.

Graham is a better pass catcher, and pass blocker. Gronk can't make the one handed grabs or athletic dives Graham does.
A TE/WR hybrid.

depending on what your offense needs take your pick, but they are pretty even to me.

Agreed. Jimmy needs some work on breaking tackles. I'm sure he'll improve but if you had to pick a weakness, thats his.

TheOak · 06-25-2012, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Agreed. Jimmy needs some work on breaking tackles. I'm sure he'll improve but if you had to pick a weakness, thats his.

That needs to be taught... Not just to Jimmy. Coleston goes down pretty quick also... On the other hand Lance Moore put in 200% after the catch.

Interesting though is that Graham is 17th in the league for YAC.

Sproles is second and Thomas is fifteenth.
2011 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

burningmetal · 06-25-2012, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by pherein

Graham and Gronk are pretty even.

Gronk is a better runner after the catch, and run blocker. Graham is faster but lacks some running skills. Gronk runs like a power RB,
Kind of a TE/RB hybrid.

Graham is a better pass catcher, and pass blocker. Gronk can't make the one handed grabs or athletic dives Graham does.
A TE/WR hybrid.

depending on what your offense needs take your pick, but they are pretty even to me.

I agree that they are fairly even for now. Don't think it will take long for Graham to surpass him in most every phase. I don't quite agree that Gronk is a better runner after the catch. Remember that play he made against the Texans last year, where he dragged defenders on his back for about 20 yards? Also the long TD against the 49ers in the playoffs, that was an incredible play. Those are the big one's that immediately come to mind, but I've seen him make plenty of nice, if not spectacular runs after the catch. I think YAC yards can be a very misleading stat. A lot of it, not all, but a lot has to do with where you catch the ball. If you're getting it in space, you stand to get a lot of extra yardage. The Patriots being an offense built around their tight ends, seemed to take more shots down field to those guys then the Saints did with Graham.

When we've given Jimmy some space to work with down field he's done his best work, but he's also great on the intermediate stuff. I didn't notice where Gronk was any better at breaking loose, but maybe that's just me. If he does need to improve, I am very confident he will.

pherein · 06-25-2012, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I don't quite agree that Gronk is a better runner after the catch. Remember that play he made against the Texans last year, where he dragged defenders on his back for about 20 yards? Also the long TD against the 49ers in the playoffs, that was an incredible play. Those are the big one's that immediately come to mind, but I've seen him make plenty of nice, if not spectacular runs after the catch. I think YAC yards can be a very misleading stat. A lot of it, not all, but a lot has to with where you catch the ball. If you're getting it in space, you stand to get a lot of extra yardage. The Patriots being an offense built around their tight ends, seemed to take more shots down field to those guys then the Saints did with Graham When we've given Jimmy some space to work with down field he's done his best work, but he's also great on the intermediate stuff. I didn't notice where Gronk was any better at breaking loose, but maybe that's just me. If he does need to improve, I am very confident he will.

Yeah, that was a great play

, but if you watch Gronk he drags guys down the field every week,makes defenders look silly after the catch.
Graham has been tackled by 1 5'10 CB or safety way more than he gets away.

Graham was targeted 30 more times than Gronk last season. I think the YAC is valid in Gronks case. He is never as open as Graham is. Your right YAC is overrated in a lot of cases, but not is this case I believe.
Graham needs to improve in this area, and even if he never does, I don't think it matters.
In the end what really matters is who can catch better for a TE, and thats clearly Graham. He catches things only Colston could.

Rushing/Receiving TD
1. LeSean McCoy*+ · PHI 20
2. Rob Gronkowski*+ · NWE 18
3. Calvin Johnson*+ · DET 16
4. Jordy Nelson · GNB 15
Ray Rice* · BAL 15
6. Cam Newton · CAR 14
7. Marshawn Lynch · SEA 13
Adrian Peterson · MIN 13
9. Arian Foster* · HOU 12
10. Ahmad Bradshaw · NYG 11
Maurice Jones-Drew*+ · JAX 11
Jimmy Graham* · NOR 11
BenJarvus Green-Ellis · NWE 11
Laurent Robinson · DAL 11
Michael Turner · ATL 11

burningmetal · 06-25-2012, 07:33 AM

[quote=pherein;414338]"Yeah, that was a great play

, but if you watch Gronk he drags guys down the field every week,makes defenders look silly after the catch.
Graham has been tackled by 1 5'10 CB or safety way more than he gets away.

Graham was targeted 30 more times than Gronk last season. I think the YAC is valid in Gronks case. He is never as open as Graham is. Your right YAC is overrated in a lot of cases, but not is this case I believe.
Graham needs to improve in this area, and even if he never does, I don't think it matters.
In the end what really matters is who can catch better for a TE, and thats clearly Graham. He catches things only Colston could".

Fair enough. A lot of that is Jimmy still trying to bulk up, after being a basketball player for so long. I don't suspect they'll try to add much more weight to him though, because at some point it starts to slow your foot speed.

pherein · 06-25-2012, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Fair enough. A lot of that is Jimmy still trying to bulk up, after being a basketball player for so long. I don't suspect they'll try to add much more weight to him though, because at some point it starts to slow your foot speed.

Thats a Very good point. He might have been a little clumsy last season with all the added weight, that never occurred to me.

06-25-2012, 05:18 AM	#1
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Stats definitely don't tell the whole story, but even if they did, c'mon... Jimmy broke Kellen Winslow's record and then Gronkowski Passed him by about what, 10 yards later that day? The only area where Gronk was fairly significantly ahead was in TD's. That's only because every time the Patriots got in the red zone, or near it, they were throwing to him. You never had to wonder who the first target was. It was always going to be him, and if someone else ended up with a TD it was only because Gronk was probably triple teamed. The beauty of our offense is we have so many polished weapons, Brees can pick and choose. But all stats aside, the most dynamic playmaking TE I saw last year was Jimmy Graham. He might not be a polished blocker, but he now has just three combined years of playing football in his entire life. Give him a break, he'll get there. Though I think Gronkowski is a total moron, he's a good player, I'll give him that. But he unquestionably benefits from a TE oriented system, whereas we're more wide open and thus get more out of everyone.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

06-25-2012, 05:41 AM	#3
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by rdanderson91 Jump at the NFL Combine feat. Glee - YouTube Bout 30 seconds in is just one reason graham is better. That and his 4.5 speed compared to gronks 4.65-4.7 Yeah, Jimmy is freakishly athletic. The only TE perhaps in the history of the league who remotely compares is Vernon Davis. But even he takes a back seat to Graham, in my opinion. Davis is very fast for a TE but he doesn't consistently make plays, and he's been playing the game a lot longer than Jimmy. I predict a couple years from now this subject will not be worth discussing. Jimmy Graham is going to be light years ahead of everyone else. Edit: Want to clarify that I think Davis is the only TE who compares athletically, not in overall play. Obviously Gronkowski, Gates (when healthy), Tony Gonzalez in his prime and many others are, or were, better than Davis. Jimmy is in that upper echelon, but Vernon (except against us) just doesn't bring it enough. Rell&Gold likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

06-25-2012, 06:58 AM	#4
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Graham and Gronk are pretty even. Gronk is a better runner after the catch, and run blocker. Graham is faster but lacks some running skills. Gronk runs like a power RB, Kind of a TE/RB hybrid. Graham is a better pass catcher, and pass blocker. Gronk can't make the one handed grabs or athletic dives Graham does. A TE/WR hybrid. depending on what your offense needs take your pick, but they are pretty even to me. Danno, Crusader, Rugby Saint II and 1 others like this.
	Last edited by pherein; 06-25-2012 at 07:03 AM..

06-25-2012, 07:01 AM	#5
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,756	Originally Posted by pherein Graham and Gronk are pretty even. Gronk is a better runner after the catch, and run blocker. Graham is faster but lacks some running skills. Gronk runs like a power RB, Kind of a TE/RB hybrid. Graham is a better pass catcher, and pass blocker. Gronk can't make the one handed grabs or athletic dives Graham does. A TE/WR hybrid. depending on what your offense needs take your pick, but they are pretty even to me. Agreed. Jimmy needs some work on breaking tackles. I'm sure he'll improve but if you had to pick a weakness, thats his. pherein likes this.

06-25-2012, 07:27 AM	#6
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Originally Posted by Danno Agreed. Jimmy needs some work on breaking tackles. I'm sure he'll improve but if you had to pick a weakness, thats his. That needs to be taught... Not just to Jimmy. Coleston goes down pretty quick also... On the other hand Lance Moore put in 200% after the catch. Interesting though is that Graham is 17th in the league for YAC. Sproles is second and Thomas is fifteenth. 2011 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

06-25-2012, 07:13 AM	#7
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by pherein Graham and Gronk are pretty even. Gronk is a better runner after the catch, and run blocker. Graham is faster but lacks some running skills. Gronk runs like a power RB, Kind of a TE/RB hybrid. Graham is a better pass catcher, and pass blocker. Gronk can't make the one handed grabs or athletic dives Graham does. A TE/WR hybrid. depending on what your offense needs take your pick, but they are pretty even to me. I agree that they are fairly even for now. Don't think it will take long for Graham to surpass him in most every phase. I don't quite agree that Gronk is a better runner after the catch. Remember that play he made against the Texans last year, where he dragged defenders on his back for about 20 yards? Also the long TD against the 49ers in the playoffs, that was an incredible play. Those are the big one's that immediately come to mind, but I've seen him make plenty of nice, if not spectacular runs after the catch. I think YAC yards can be a very misleading stat. A lot of it, not all, but a lot has to do with where you catch the ball. If you're getting it in space, you stand to get a lot of extra yardage. The Patriots being an offense built around their tight ends, seemed to take more shots down field to those guys then the Saints did with Graham. When we've given Jimmy some space to work with down field he's done his best work, but he's also great on the intermediate stuff. I didn't notice where Gronk was any better at breaking loose, but maybe that's just me. If he does need to improve, I am very confident he will.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

06-25-2012, 07:27 AM	#8
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by burningmetal I don't quite agree that Gronk is a better runner after the catch. Remember that play he made against the Texans last year, where he dragged defenders on his back for about 20 yards? Also the long TD against the 49ers in the playoffs, that was an incredible play. Those are the big one's that immediately come to mind, but I've seen him make plenty of nice, if not spectacular runs after the catch. I think YAC yards can be a very misleading stat. A lot of it, not all, but a lot has to with where you catch the ball. If you're getting it in space, you stand to get a lot of extra yardage. The Patriots being an offense built around their tight ends, seemed to take more shots down field to those guys then the Saints did with Graham When we've given Jimmy some space to work with down field he's done his best work, but he's also great on the intermediate stuff. I didn't notice where Gronk was any better at breaking loose, but maybe that's just me. If he does need to improve, I am very confident he will. Yeah, that was a great play , but if you watch Gronk he drags guys down the field every week,makes defenders look silly after the catch. Graham has been tackled by 1 5'10 CB or safety way more than he gets away. Graham was targeted 30 more times than Gronk last season. I think the YAC is valid in Gronks case. He is never as open as Graham is. Your right YAC is overrated in a lot of cases, but not is this case I believe. Graham needs to improve in this area, and even if he never does, I don't think it matters. In the end what really matters is who can catch better for a TE, and thats clearly Graham. He catches things only Colston could. Rushing/Receiving TD 1. LeSean McCoy+ · PHI 20 2. Rob Gronkowski+ · NWE 18 3. Calvin Johnson+ · DET 16 4. Jordy Nelson · GNB 15 Ray Rice · BAL 15 6. Cam Newton · CAR 14 7. Marshawn Lynch · SEA 13 Adrian Peterson · MIN 13 9. Arian Foster* · HOU 12 10. Ahmad Bradshaw · NYG 11 Maurice Jones-Drew+ · JAX 11 Jimmy Graham · NOR 11 BenJarvus Green-Ellis · NWE 11 Laurent Robinson · DAL 11 Michael Turner · ATL 11 Rugby Saint II likes this.
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before. Last edited by pherein; 06-25-2012 at 07:32 AM..

06-25-2012, 07:33 AM	#9
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	[quote=pherein;414338]"Yeah, that was a great play , but if you watch Gronk he drags guys down the field every week,makes defenders look silly after the catch. Graham has been tackled by 1 5'10 CB or safety way more than he gets away. Graham was targeted 30 more times than Gronk last season. I think the YAC is valid in Gronks case. He is never as open as Graham is. Your right YAC is overrated in a lot of cases, but not is this case I believe. Graham needs to improve in this area, and even if he never does, I don't think it matters. In the end what really matters is who can catch better for a TE, and thats clearly Graham. He catches things only Colston could". Fair enough. A lot of that is Jimmy still trying to bulk up, after being a basketball player for so long. I don't suspect they'll try to add much more weight to him though, because at some point it starts to slow your foot speed. pherein likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

06-25-2012, 07:46 AM	#10
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by burningmetal Fair enough. A lot of that is Jimmy still trying to bulk up, after being a basketball player for so long. I don't suspect they'll try to add much more weight to him though, because at some point it starts to slow your foot speed. Thats a Very good point. He might have been a little clumsy last season with all the added weight, that never occurred to me.

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