GumboBC

WhoDat --

I\'m not trying to defend the win/loss record of Haslett. All I was saying is I think you are being unfair about the \"cancerous\" players thing.

If you want to look at the \"BIG\" picture with Haslett, then he has failed us for 3-years and he has exceeded our expectations for 1-year.

I can\'t really argue with you on a lot of things. I even agree with you on most of them. It\'s just I see some things a little differently and I\'m not as critical as you are.

I still say that Haslett hasn\'t had anymore problems or more unusal problems than a lot of successful coaches. I think the only difference is some of those coaches have been more successful. Which I think is your point. AND ITS A GOOD POINT.

saintfan

Ultimately, as I have shown in another post, Haz has a record very similar, if not better, than the most recent coach to win the superbowl as well as Parcells, who is widely considered on of the \"elite\" coaches in the game. If you look as each coach through their first 4 years you won\'t find much difference. Some folks just want Haz gone...and it IS that simple.

[Edited on 10/5/2004 by saintfan]

BlackandBlue

Personality conflict was more the issue. Allen was used to being coddled. Parcells coaches with a no-nonsense attitude. Allen will not be wearing blue and silver this fall.

saintfan

Agreed, but by the Standards some are trying to hold Haz to, getting rid of Allen wouldn\'t be an option...

SaintNik

Regardless of why he is overweight and out of shape, he is to blame and should be ashamed. Us giving up two number ones to move up and take him based on his potential magnifies the situation and brings our judgement into question. Staying put at 17 and 18 could have landed us two potential starters namely in Bailey and Whitten along with other DTs and CBs available there. Hindsight can be 20/20 or it can blind you. You have to move forward. This guy came out as a junior, young and immature, had Grady as a role model, failed to grasp the defensive scheme, was slightly injured, and therefore played sparingly but his play did improve toward the end of the year. We got almost the same production out of undrafted rookie Kendrick Allen. Huge value difference between those two not only in picks but in dollars. Hopefully Sully will work hard to get both physically and mentally conditioned to be the best player he can be.

On another note.......earlier in this thread Billy gave an account of why several players are no longer with us. Let me tell you what I know about a certain situation. Remember, I see you when you\'re sleeping (with someone elses wife). It was rumored that Joe Horn had slept with Willie Roafs wife. Joe Horn publicly denied it. Nobody said Joe was lying or that it was true, not even Roaf. The organization and players ceased commenting on the subject. The wrong Joe got called out. It in fact was Joe Johnson.

In the perfect world, the team would have liked both players to have gotten over it and finished their careers here. Real world had Roaf emotionally shredded in need of a change in environment, change of address, and change of marital status. One of the best left tackles to ever play the game, the Saints were faced with having to pay him huge bucks to continue his presence here. Thinking that his best days were behind him and a trade would accomodate him, the team moved him with the upside being a lot of salary cap space freed up to sign other free agents which they did. The team really wanted to keep Joe Johnson as he at the time was a pro bowl player, our best defensive lineman, still young and at the prime of his career. He was a free agent and commanded big bucks on the open market even though he had the muscle tear earlier that year that sidelined him for several games. The organization got outbid for his services by a small margin in offer by Green Bay and was dissapointed in losing him ( we moved Howard from left to right end and drafted Grant in the first round ). Two seasons have since gone by and lets look at where these two players are today.

Willie Roaf is still playing at a pro bowl level and was stolen for a mere 3rd round draft pick.

Joe Johnson reinjured the same muscle, has played little, has been a huge dissapointment on the feild and also had the Cheech and Chong incident with the police pulling him over with the cloud of weed smoke coming from this vehicle. He was not invited to mini camp last week as the Packers feared him being injured. It is their intention to release him June 1st. If he can stay healthy, he still is young enough to play at a high level in the league. If he wants, he will sign on with another team.

Just Chillin Checking Out The B&G Forum While Waiting For My Ship To Come In

http://img51.exs.cx/img51/4387/Santa_on_raft.jpg

WhoDat

I\'ll tell you what, if you were hired as the CEO of a company valued around $300 million dollars, and you beat expectations by producing higher than expected earnings in your first year, and then followed that up with three straight years of losses (when the street was predicting moderate gains), your a$$ would be in the unemployment line. Haslett\'s job requirements are easily measured and his purpose is very easy to define: WIN. That\'s it. It is the only reason he is here. Take the team to a Super Bowl, or at very least one step closer. At this point, I don\'t care of the roof of the dome collapses - NO MORE EXCUSES!

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

GumboBC

I\'m assuming you\'re talking to saintfan, but I\'m going to throw this in anyway :P


Jim Haslett - First 4-seasons with Saints
| Reg. Season | Playoffs |
| Year TM | W L T | W L |
| 2000 nor 10 6 0 | 1 1 |
| 2001 nor 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 nor 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 nor 8 8 0 | 0 0
| TOTALS 34 30 0 | 1 1

Mike Holmgren - First 4-seasons with Seahawks
1999 sea 9 7 0 | 0 1 |
| 2000 sea 6 10 0 | 0 0 |
| 2001 sea 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 sea 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
TOTALS 31 33 0 1

Bill Bellichick First 4-years coaching
| Year TM | W L T | W L |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| 1991 cle | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |
| 1992 cle | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 1993 cle | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 1994 cle | 11 5 0 | 1 1 |
TOTALS 31 33 1 1

Basically, no, Exactly what you are saying is would would have fired Bellichick and Holmgren --

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by GumboBC]

saintfan

I\'ve already tried that Billy...they just blow it off and go back to their beetchin\'. There is no way to level the playing field when the combatants don\'t WANT a level playing field.

You guys who are miffed by those of us (myself in particular) that tend to support Haz seem to think we/I don\'t hold him accountable -- and that\'s simply not the truth. The thruth is I saw a lot of reasons for the Saints 8-8 record last year and I could list \'em here, but why waste more HDD space on it. I\'ve done it before.

Whodat listed some coaches a few posts ago where he indicated people he\'d rather see coaching the Saints. How many of those coaches have done for their team what Whodat demands of Haz in the same time frame? Well, how many of \'em Whodat?

Some of you just don\'t like Haz...wonderful...but in your general dislike for the man you\'re failing to take everything under consideration...and you KNOW it.

C'mon Man...

GumboBC

I know you did saintfan and I know it\'s frustrating to follow someone eles\'s logic only to have them dismiss it when you show them their reasoning is flawed.

I\'ve heard them say Haslett needs to be fired. then in the next breath they tell me this is the most talented team we\'ve ever had. Obviously, Haslett brought the players in that he wanted. I think Jim gets the credit there.

They tell me that it was luck that we won in Hasletts first year and then they tell me in the next breath that we can\'t blame last year on bad luck because their is no such thing as bad luck. Well, if there\'s such a thing as good luck, then doesn\'t there have to be such a thing as bad luck?

I\'m trying to be unbiased on Haslett. There have been some things that have happend that are Haslett\'s fault. But, there have been some things happen that were totally out of his control. I\'m sure Bellichick wasn\'t totally to blame when his team lost during his first 4 years of coaching. I\'m also sure that these folks that are criticising Haslett wouldn\'t have wanted to listen to reasoning had Bellichick been our coach during those losing seasons he had. By their logic, the only thing that counted was the wins/losses.

There have been great coaches that have been fired because fans got frustrated and ownership caved in to their demands. Bellichick is one example. IMHO, just because someone can point to a coach that has enjoyed more success early on in their career doen\'t mean that because Haslett has had problems that he is not a good coach.





[Edited on 11/5/2004 by GumboBC]

saintfan

Bellichick didn\'t have more success early in his career. ...and what is there to be said about the Patriots from year before last? What happened to \'em then?