Judge calls BS on Goodell

TheOak · 08-16-2012, 08:31 AM

Scratch that earlier comment about one knee procedure.... Apparently he had had three procedures.

Affidavit reveals that Jonathan Vilma has had three procedures performed on left knee - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com

42alpha saint · 08-16-2012, 09:15 AM

I did the math here, and I figured for the 2009 season - present, oh wait i did not count the preseason games, but I figured that we have played 54 regular season and playoff games. If the NFL says they have 50,000 pages of evidence, that comes out to be 925.92 pages per game. There is no way possible, that they could have that much evidence. What a gross exxageration on the part of the NFL to blatantly slander our team, in an effort to turn every fan in the NFL who is not a Saint Fan against us. Im not a lawyer, but I cant understand why the Judge, cant provide a court order to the NFL to produce all 50,000 pages of evidence or leave her with no choice but to rule in favor of Vilma. I have a red button that reads Bullsh*t and when pressed, it proclaims a few sayings, such as BS alert BS alert!!! I think the judge needs one of these on her desk, for when the NFL representatives start talking.

TheOak · 08-16-2012, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Scoopnette

I did the math here, and I figured for the 2009 season - present, oh wait i did not count the preseason games, but I figured that we have played 54 regular season and playoff games. If the NFL says they have 50,000 pages of evidence, that comes out to be 925.92 pages per game. There is no way possible, that they could have that much evidence. What a gross exxageration on the part of the NFL to blatantly slander our team, in an effort to turn every fan in the NFL who is not a Saint Fan against us. Im not a lawyer, but I cant understand why the Judge, cant provide a court order to the NFL to produce all 50,000 pages of evidence or leave her with no choice but to rule in favor of Vilma.

be careful what you wish for.....

1. If there is just ONE piece in those 50k pages that is believable or factual Vilma is done.

2. The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL.

Utah_Saint · 08-16-2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

be careful what you wish for.....

1. If there is just ONE piece in those 50k pages that is believable or factual Vilma is done.

2. The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL.

According to the CBA, wasn't Goodell supposed to turn over all evidence that he used to decide punishment of the players?

Quote from court filing a couple weeks ago...

"Article 46, Section 2(ii) of the CBA -- which mandates that the league turn over any evidence they plan to use to Vilma three days prior to the appeal -- and wrote that since the league said it had 55,000 pages of evidence "it is simply impossible that Goodell only considered the evidence produced prior to the appeal hearing, both because 180 pages do not come close to justifying any punishment and because it is humanly impossible to block out, and not consider, 99 percent of the information gathered."

So if one of those other 50,000 pages does have some type of evidence, then Goodell violated the CBA again.

And this in another part of this whole thing that I can't understand. Many rumors are going around that Goodell is protecting his sources. I don't know where they started but If that's true, then he is again in violation of the CBA. I would think that alone would be enough for the judge to step in and nullify Goodells decision.

TheOak · 08-16-2012, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint

According to the CBA, wasn't Goodell supposed to turn over all evidence that he used to decide punishment of the players?

Quote from court filing a couple weeks ago...

"Article 46, Section 2(ii) of the CBA -- which mandates that the league turn over any evidence they plan to use to Vilma three days prior to the appeal -- and wrote that since the league said it had 55,000 pages of evidence "it is simply impossible that Goodell only considered the evidence produced prior to the appeal hearing, both because 180 pages do not come close to justifying any punishment and because it is humanly impossible to block out, and not consider, 99 percent of the information gathered."

So if one of those other 50,000 pages does have some type of evidence, then Goodell violated the CBA again.

And this in another part of this whole thing that I can't understand. Many rumors are going around that Goodell is protecting his sources. I don't know where they started but If that's true, then he is again in violation of the CBA. I would think that alone would be enough for the judge to step in and nullify Goodells decision.

No.. that is a common misconception.... He does not have to turn over ANYTHING he used to make his judgement... At this point, or until a Judge tells him to.

He DID have to turn over ANYTHING he planned to use in that appeal hearing. For appeal hearings the big picture is not important (to the process), he only had to make available what the NFL planned to use in that specific appeals hearing so the NFLPA could prepare argument.

42alpha saint · 08-16-2012, 09:25 AM

"The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL."

I have a hard time reading 1 page of anything from the NFL, must less 50,000, so I definitely see your point there.

NuNu318 · 08-16-2012, 09:50 AM

I kinda remember something about the NFLPA asking for them to delay the suspensions so the could do their own investigation.......but I also remember the NFL stating publicly that they WOULD NOT delay the suspensions to the players. So yeah....NFL is screwed any way they slice it.

TXGSP · 08-16-2012, 11:10 AM

Regardless of the evidence.... The league provided some information on this themselves...on their own website

Find this article at:
NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints case - NFL.com

NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints case
NFL.com Wire Reports
Published: March 16, 2012 at 02:56 a.m.
Updated: March 16, 2012 at 08:43 a.m.

The NFL responded to a request by the NFL Players Association to conduct its own investigation into the New Orleans Saints' pay-for-performance scandal, SI.com reported Thursday.

The league told the union that it was free to question any current or former Saints officials about the matter, but that it would not delay announcing its own discipline. That announcement is expected to come soon.

Union officials contend they didn't learn of the investigation until shortly before the results were announced, at which point they told the league they wanted to conduct their own investigation.

"We have given your requests careful consideration, and have concluded that there is no basis for delaying the imposition of any discipline in this matter, and particularly not as it may apply to a club or any non-player employee of a club," NFL attorney Jeff Pash wrote in the letter to union general counsel Richard Berthelsen on Wednesday. "Any disciplinary action affecting any player would be imposed only in a manner consistent with our Collective Bargaining Agreement. As you know, the sole authority to investigate and impose discipline in this matter rests with the Commissioner."

Pash also wrote that team officials were free to speak with union investigators, but that the league "will neither compel them to do so, nor direct them to refrain from doing so."

The NFL says the Saints ran a program that gave thousands of dollars in payoffs to players for hits that knocked opponents out of games. The NFL said the amounts reached their peak in 2009, the season the Saints won the Super Bowl. Former Saints assistant coach Gregg Williams, now defensive coordinator of the Rams, has admitted to and apologized for running the program.

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

If the League denied the request to delay any penalties and reported it on March 16. The Saints, Loomis, and coaches' penatlies were handed out Mar 21, so why did they wait until May 02 to hand out those penalties after denying the request for delay.

Looks like this is getting interesting...

League story - Player suspensions dated May 02
Jonathan Vilma among four Saints suspended in 'bounty' case - NFL.com

NonieT · 08-16-2012, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by TXGSP

Regardless of the evidence.... The league provided some information on this themselves...on their own website

Find this article at:
NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints case - NFL.com

NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints caseNFL.com Wire Reports
Published: March 16, 2012 at 02:56 a.m. Updated: March 16, 2012 at 08:43 a.m.

The NFL responded to a request by the NFL Players Association to conduct its own investigation into the New Orleans Saints' pay-for-performance scandal, SI.com reported Thursday.

The league told the union that it was free to question any current or former Saints officials about the matter, but that it would not delay announcing its own discipline. That announcement is expected to come soon.

Union officials contend they didn't learn of the investigation until shortly before the results were announced, at which point they told the league they wanted to conduct their own investigation.

"We have given your requests careful consideration, and have concluded that there is no basis for delaying the imposition of any discipline in this matter, and particularly not as it may apply to a club or any non-player employee of a club," NFL attorney Jeff Pash wrote in the letter to union general counsel Richard Berthelsen on Wednesday. "Any disciplinary action affecting any player would be imposed only in a manner consistent with our Collective Bargaining Agreement. As you know, the sole authority to investigate and impose discipline in this matter rests with the Commissioner."

Pash also wrote that team officials were free to speak with union investigators, but that the league "will neither compel them to do so, nor direct them to refrain from doing so."

The NFL says the Saints ran a program that gave thousands of dollars in payoffs to players for hits that knocked opponents out of games. The NFL said the amounts reached their peak in 2009, the season the Saints won the Super Bowl. Former Saints assistant coach Gregg Williams, now defensive coordinator of the Rams, has admitted to and apologized for running the program.

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

If the League denied the request to delay any penalties and reported it on March 16. The Saints, Loomis, and coaches' penatlies were handed out Mar 21, so why did they wait until May 02 to hand out those penalties after denying the request for delay.

Looks like this is getting interesting...

League story - Player suspensions dated May 02
Jonathan Vilma among four Saints suspended in 'bounty' case - NFL.com

From Saintsreport:

On April 23rd--a month later--in an interview with Rich Eisen on the NFLN, Goodell said this about player sanctions:

Quote:
I hope to reach those decisions very soon. We have been continuing our work. We have continued to talk to players and other people that can give us a perspective. Once we have got all the information and we feel that we are in a position to be able to issue the fairest and most thorough types of decisions, we will do that but I expect to do that soon because this is a big element to me ...

I am not necessarily looking for [the NFLPA's] recommendation on discipline. I am looking for their recommendation on what we do to continue to make our game safer and to get this type of activity out of the game and get back to the point where we have respect for each other and the game itself.

Halo · 08-16-2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Speaking of discovery..... I still have a major issue with the NFLPA not subpoenaing Greg Williams, Roger Goodell, and all parties involved with the "supposed" infractions or the investigation.... So that they could get their own answers... Not getting their own evidence means they are constantly on the Defense instead of the offense... I have yet to see where the NFLPA has filed a motion to get the NFL to turn all 50k pages over.. They asked, but not legally.

NFL wins the Time of Possession battle.

We're not in discovery phase yet. That starts when the court accepts the case. They're still in hearings about whether to allow a court ordered injunction should be awarded to allow Vilma to play, and eventually whether the court accepts the case.

In this hearing phase you probably would not want to force a witness (Goodell or Gregg Williams) to go to court unless he or she has already agreed to testify. You want people to testify who support your position.

Dragging someone into court who doesn’t want to be there on your behalf could set the persons testimony against you. A hostile witness in a hearing like this can cause a lot of confusion and raise a lot of issues that muddy the original purpose of the hearing.

Hostile cross examination needs to be reserved for the actual court proceedings. In hearings, plaintiffs usually seek evidence needed from another source before getting a subpoena for a reluctant witness.

Remember, the "hearing" is not a trial. It's a time to make arguments on the merits of the case so the court will accept the case, and specifically on requests the plaintiff is making (in this case- injunction relief so Vilma can play until all the B.S. is proven to be a farce.)

08-16-2012, 08:31 AM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell Scratch that earlier comment about one knee procedure.... Apparently he had had three procedures. Affidavit reveals that Jonathan Vilma has had three procedures performed on left knee - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com

08-16-2012, 09:15 AM	#2
42alpha saint Rookie Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 16	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell I did the math here, and I figured for the 2009 season - present, oh wait i did not count the preseason games, but I figured that we have played 54 regular season and playoff games. If the NFL says they have 50,000 pages of evidence, that comes out to be 925.92 pages per game. There is no way possible, that they could have that much evidence. What a gross exxageration on the part of the NFL to blatantly slander our team, in an effort to turn every fan in the NFL who is not a Saint Fan against us. Im not a lawyer, but I cant understand why the Judge, cant provide a court order to the NFL to produce all 50,000 pages of evidence or leave her with no choice but to rule in favor of Vilma. I have a red button that reads Bullsh*t and when pressed, it proclaims a few sayings, such as BS alert BS alert!!! I think the judge needs one of these on her desk, for when the NFL representatives start talking. Halo and frydaddy like this.
42alpha saint Rookie Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 16	Last edited by 42alpha saint; 08-16-2012 at 09:20 AM.. Reason: addition

08-16-2012, 09:20 AM	#3
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell Originally Posted by Scoopnette I did the math here, and I figured for the 2009 season - present, oh wait i did not count the preseason games, but I figured that we have played 54 regular season and playoff games. If the NFL says they have 50,000 pages of evidence, that comes out to be 925.92 pages per game. There is no way possible, that they could have that much evidence. What a gross exxageration on the part of the NFL to blatantly slander our team, in an effort to turn every fan in the NFL who is not a Saint Fan against us. Im not a lawyer, but I cant understand why the Judge, cant provide a court order to the NFL to produce all 50,000 pages of evidence or leave her with no choice but to rule in favor of Vilma. be careful what you wish for..... 1. If there is just ONE piece in those 50k pages that is believable or factual Vilma is done. 2. The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL. Halo and 42alpha saint like this.

08-16-2012, 09:55 AM	#4
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell Originally Posted by x626xBlack be careful what you wish for..... 1. If there is just ONE piece in those 50k pages that is believable or factual Vilma is done. 2. The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL. According to the CBA, wasn't Goodell supposed to turn over all evidence that he used to decide punishment of the players? Quote from court filing a couple weeks ago... "Article 46, Section 2(ii) of the CBA -- which mandates that the league turn over any evidence they plan to use to Vilma three days prior to the appeal -- and wrote that since the league said it had 55,000 pages of evidence "it is simply impossible that Goodell only considered the evidence produced prior to the appeal hearing, both because 180 pages do not come close to justifying any punishment and because it is humanly impossible to block out, and not consider, 99 percent of the information gathered." So if one of those other 50,000 pages does have some type of evidence, then Goodell violated the CBA again. And this in another part of this whole thing that I can't understand. Many rumors are going around that Goodell is protecting his sources. I don't know where they started but If that's true, then he is again in violation of the CBA. I would think that alone would be enough for the judge to step in and nullify Goodells decision.

08-16-2012, 10:02 AM	#5
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell Originally Posted by Utah_Saint According to the CBA, wasn't Goodell supposed to turn over all evidence that he used to decide punishment of the players? Quote from court filing a couple weeks ago... "Article 46, Section 2(ii) of the CBA -- which mandates that the league turn over any evidence they plan to use to Vilma three days prior to the appeal -- and wrote that since the league said it had 55,000 pages of evidence "it is simply impossible that Goodell only considered the evidence produced prior to the appeal hearing, both because 180 pages do not come close to justifying any punishment and because it is humanly impossible to block out, and not consider, 99 percent of the information gathered." So if one of those other 50,000 pages does have some type of evidence, then Goodell violated the CBA again. And this in another part of this whole thing that I can't understand. Many rumors are going around that Goodell is protecting his sources. I don't know where they started but If that's true, then he is again in violation of the CBA. I would think that alone would be enough for the judge to step in and nullify Goodells decision. No.. that is a common misconception.... He does not have to turn over ANYTHING he used to make his judgement... At this point, or until a Judge tells him to. He DID have to turn over ANYTHING he planned to use in that appeal hearing. For appeal hearings the big picture is not important (to the process), he only had to make available what the NFL planned to use in that specific appeals hearing so the NFLPA could prepare argument.

08-16-2012, 09:25 AM	#6
42alpha saint Rookie Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 16	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell "The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL." I have a hard time reading 1 page of anything from the NFL, must less 50,000, so I definitely see your point there. Halo and Utah_Saint like this.
42alpha saint Rookie Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 16

08-16-2012, 09:50 AM	#7
NuNu318 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: VA Posts: 465	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell I kinda remember something about the NFLPA asking for them to delay the suspensions so the could do their own investigation.......but I also remember the NFL stating publicly that they WOULD NOT delay the suspensions to the players. So yeah....NFL is screwed any way they slice it.

08-16-2012, 11:10 AM	#8
TXGSP LET MY TEAM GO! Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Just north of COWGAL HELL Posts: 296	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell Regardless of the evidence.... The league provided some information on this themselves...on their own website Find this article at: NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints case - NFL.com NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints case NFL.com Wire Reports Published: March 16, 2012 at 02:56 a.m. Updated: March 16, 2012 at 08:43 a.m. The NFL responded to a request by the NFL Players Association to conduct its own investigation into the New Orleans Saints' pay-for-performance scandal, SI.com reported Thursday. The league told the union that it was free to question any current or former Saints officials about the matter, but that it would not delay announcing its own discipline. That announcement is expected to come soon. Union officials contend they didn't learn of the investigation until shortly before the results were announced, at which point they told the league they wanted to conduct their own investigation. "We have given your requests careful consideration, and have concluded that there is no basis for delaying the imposition of any discipline in this matter, and particularly not as it may apply to a club or any non-player employee of a club," NFL attorney Jeff Pash wrote in the letter to union general counsel Richard Berthelsen on Wednesday. "Any disciplinary action affecting any player would be imposed only in a manner consistent with our Collective Bargaining Agreement. As you know, the sole authority to investigate and impose discipline in this matter rests with the Commissioner." Pash also wrote that team officials were free to speak with union investigators, but that the league "will neither compel them to do so, nor direct them to refrain from doing so." The NFL says the Saints ran a program that gave thousands of dollars in payoffs to players for hits that knocked opponents out of games. The NFL said the amounts reached their peak in 2009, the season the Saints won the Super Bowl. Former Saints assistant coach Gregg Williams, now defensive coordinator of the Rams, has admitted to and apologized for running the program. The Associated Press contributed to this story. If the League denied the request to delay any penalties and reported it on March 16. The Saints, Loomis, and coaches' penatlies were handed out Mar 21, so why did they wait until May 02 to hand out those penalties after denying the request for delay. Looks like this is getting interesting... League story - Player suspensions dated May 02 Jonathan Vilma among four Saints suspended in 'bounty' case - NFL.com TheOak likes this.
	Last edited by Halo; 08-16-2012 at 12:24 PM..

08-16-2012, 11:19 AM	#9
NonieT 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 921	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell Originally Posted by TXGSP Regardless of the evidence.... The league provided some information on this themselves...on their own website Find this article at: NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints case - NFL.com NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints caseNFL.com Wire Reports Published: March 16, 2012 at 02:56 a.m. Updated: March 16, 2012 at 08:43 a.m. The NFL responded to a request by the NFL Players Association to conduct its own investigation into the New Orleans Saints' pay-for-performance scandal, SI.com reported Thursday. The league told the union that it was free to question any current or former Saints officials about the matter, but that it would not delay announcing its own discipline. That announcement is expected to come soon. Union officials contend they didn't learn of the investigation until shortly before the results were announced, at which point they told the league they wanted to conduct their own investigation. "We have given your requests careful consideration, and have concluded that there is no basis for delaying the imposition of any discipline in this matter, and particularly not as it may apply to a club or any non-player employee of a club," NFL attorney Jeff Pash wrote in the letter to union general counsel Richard Berthelsen on Wednesday. "Any disciplinary action affecting any player would be imposed only in a manner consistent with our Collective Bargaining Agreement. As you know, the sole authority to investigate and impose discipline in this matter rests with the Commissioner." Pash also wrote that team officials were free to speak with union investigators, but that the league "will neither compel them to do so, nor direct them to refrain from doing so." The NFL says the Saints ran a program that gave thousands of dollars in payoffs to players for hits that knocked opponents out of games. The NFL said the amounts reached their peak in 2009, the season the Saints won the Super Bowl. Former Saints assistant coach Gregg Williams, now defensive coordinator of the Rams, has admitted to and apologized for running the program. The Associated Press contributed to this story. If the League denied the request to delay any penalties and reported it on March 16. The Saints, Loomis, and coaches' penatlies were handed out Mar 21, so why did they wait until May 02 to hand out those penalties after denying the request for delay. Looks like this is getting interesting... League story - Player suspensions dated May 02 Jonathan Vilma among four Saints suspended in 'bounty' case - NFL.com From Saintsreport: On April 23rd--a month later--in an interview with Rich Eisen on the NFLN, Goodell said this about player sanctions: Quote: I hope to reach those decisions very soon. We have been continuing our work. We have continued to talk to players and other people that can give us a perspective. Once we have got all the information and we feel that we are in a position to be able to issue the fairest and most thorough types of decisions, we will do that but I expect to do that soon because this is a big element to me ... I am not necessarily looking for [the NFLPA's] recommendation on discipline. I am looking for their recommendation on what we do to continue to make our game safer and to get this type of activity out of the game and get back to the point where we have respect for each other and the game itself.
NonieT 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 921

08-16-2012, 12:39 PM	#10
Halo Site Donor MONTHLY Join Date: May 2002 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 20,894 Blog Entries: 45	Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell Originally Posted by x626xBlack Speaking of discovery..... I still have a major issue with the NFLPA not subpoenaing Greg Williams, Roger Goodell, and all parties involved with the "supposed" infractions or the investigation.... So that they could get their own answers... Not getting their own evidence means they are constantly on the Defense instead of the offense... I have yet to see where the NFLPA has filed a motion to get the NFL to turn all 50k pages over.. They asked, but not legally. NFL wins the Time of Possession battle. We're not in discovery phase yet. That starts when the court accepts the case. They're still in hearings about whether to allow a court ordered injunction should be awarded to allow Vilma to play, and eventually whether the court accepts the case. In this hearing phase you probably would not want to force a witness (Goodell or Gregg Williams) to go to court unless he or she has already agreed to testify. You want people to testify who support your position. Dragging someone into court who doesn’t want to be there on your behalf could set the persons testimony against you. A hostile witness in a hearing like this can cause a lot of confusion and raise a lot of issues that muddy the original purpose of the hearing. Hostile cross examination needs to be reserved for the actual court proceedings. In hearings, plaintiffs usually seek evidence needed from another source before getting a subpoena for a reluctant witness. Remember, the "hearing" is not a trial. It's a time to make arguments on the merits of the case so the court will accept the case, and specifically on requests the plaintiff is making (in this case- injunction relief so Vilma can play until all the B.S. is proven to be a farce.)
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