Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon

Danno · 11-27-2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I totally agree, and I was simply talking about this 49ers game when I was placing blame on Brees - not about the season as a whole.

And I agree that replacing Brees with another QB, even one that was above average, would in all likelihood result in more losses and with less overall scoring, and I'm in no way saying that Brees should be replaced!

But - just to play the devil's advocate - if you were to replace Brees with an average QB: a lot of other things would also change along with that if we are not talking about a scenario where Brees wound up on the IR and had to be replaced by Daniel. For example, $20M could land a couple of studs on the defense and/or an excellent pair of OTs, who could create a dominant run game and/or really good pass protection for the average QB taking over for Brees. So, it's really hard to just imagine a scenario where Brees was replaced by another QB, but the rest of the team remained the same - especially the offensive game-plan.

Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB.

Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that.

I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not.

FinSaint · 11-27-2012, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB.

Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that.

I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not.

True, I was only saying that it's very hard to just think about how different things would be if we were to replace Brees with a lower quality QB and keep it relative to how the rest of the team would be structured and how they'd perform within that system, because they definitely couldn't run the same offensive system with a lesser QB at the helm.

xan · 11-27-2012, 02:13 PM

Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure.

Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC.

Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less.

Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.

TheOak · 11-27-2012, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by xan

Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure.

Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC.

Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less.

Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.

Source?

SaintsBro · 11-27-2012, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by xan

Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.

Same people? Ben Grubbs? Bryce Harris? Joe Morgan for part of the year instead of Devery? Charles Brown? That's nowhere near the same people as last season. Not to even mention the new receivers coach, the O-line coach doubling as head coach, and the overall lack of a head coach to put the game plan together each week. Everything is exactly the same as last year, totally.

Boutte · 11-27-2012, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by xan

Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure.

Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC.

Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less.

Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.

So Xan, make it easy for me. Are you saying that the only difference between this year and and last year is that Brees is now making more money and that that is reason we're not dominating like we did last year? It's all on Brees and his contract?

TheOak · 11-28-2012, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by xan

Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure.

Sources please.

xan · 11-28-2012, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Sources please.

TeamRankings.com: Predictions, Picks, Rankings, Odds & Stats for NCAAB, NBA, NFL, NCAAF and MLB
NFL.com - Official Site of the National Football League (gamebooks)

TheOak · 11-28-2012, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by xan

TeamRankings.com: Predictions, Picks, Rankings, Odds & Stats for NCAAB, NBA, NFL, NCAAF and MLB
NFL.com - Official Site of the National Football League (gamebooks)

I must be missing the week 11 2011 season cumulative stats that you would have needed for the comparison.

FinSaint · 11-27-2012, 02:35 PM

The time of possession is a concern, but it is only compounded by the fact that the Saints want to be a fast pace offense, and therefore, if their drives are cut short of scoring or driving the length of the field, they won't take as much time off the clock as the opposition would with the same amount of snaps.

That's one of the things that f.e. Brees was commenting on when the beginning of the season was played under the control of the replacement refs, claiming that the replacement refs were hindering the way Saints want to play on the offense because it was taking so much longer for them to spot the ball compared to the standard refs.

Maybe that tilt in the time of possession is related strongly to the fact that SP isn't calling the plays this season, which has resulted in more 3 and outs or just more repetitive play calling as a whole which has made it easier for the opposition to stop Saints' offensive drives?!

11-27-2012, 02:00 PM	#1
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,758	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by FinSaint I totally agree, and I was simply talking about this 49ers game when I was placing blame on Brees - not about the season as a whole. And I agree that replacing Brees with another QB, even one that was above average, would in all likelihood result in more losses and with less overall scoring, and I'm in no way saying that Brees should be replaced! But - just to play the devil's advocate - if you were to replace Brees with an average QB: a lot of other things would also change along with that if we are not talking about a scenario where Brees wound up on the IR and had to be replaced by Daniel. For example, $20M could land a couple of studs on the defense and/or an excellent pair of OTs, who could create a dominant run game and/or really good pass protection for the average QB taking over for Brees. So, it's really hard to just imagine a scenario where Brees was replaced by another QB, but the rest of the team remained the same - especially the offensive game-plan. Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB. Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that. I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not.

11-27-2012, 02:03 PM	#2
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by Danno Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB. Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that. I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not. True, I was only saying that it's very hard to just think about how different things would be if we were to replace Brees with a lower quality QB and keep it relative to how the rest of the team would be structured and how they'd perform within that system, because they definitely couldn't run the same offensive system with a lesser QB at the helm.

11-27-2012, 02:13 PM	#3
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,373 Blog Entries: 34	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure. Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC. Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less. Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

11-27-2012, 02:39 PM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,059	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by xan Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure. Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC. Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less. Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money. Source?

11-27-2012, 02:46 PM	#5
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by xan Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money. Same people? Ben Grubbs? Bryce Harris? Joe Morgan for part of the year instead of Devery? Charles Brown? That's nowhere near the same people as last season. Not to even mention the new receivers coach, the O-line coach doubling as head coach, and the overall lack of a head coach to put the game plan together each week. Everything is exactly the same as last year, totally.

11-27-2012, 04:52 PM	#6
Boutte Site Donor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belle Chasse Posts: 1,701	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by xan Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure. Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC. Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less. Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money. So Xan, make it easy for me. Are you saying that the only difference between this year and and last year is that Brees is now making more money and that that is reason we're not dominating like we did last year? It's all on Brees and his contract?

11-28-2012, 07:07 AM	#7
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,059	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by xan Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure. Sources please.

11-28-2012, 07:17 AM	#8
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,373 Blog Entries: 34	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by TheOak Sources please. TeamRankings.com: Predictions, Picks, Rankings, Odds & Stats for NCAAB, NBA, NFL, NCAAF and MLB NFL.com - Official Site of the National Football League (gamebooks)

11-28-2012, 07:28 AM	#9
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,059	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by xan TeamRankings.com: Predictions, Picks, Rankings, Odds & Stats for NCAAB, NBA, NFL, NCAAF and MLB NFL.com - Official Site of the National Football League (gamebooks) I must be missing the week 11 2011 season cumulative stats that you would have needed for the comparison.

11-27-2012, 02:35 PM	#10
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon The time of possession is a concern, but it is only compounded by the fact that the Saints want to be a fast pace offense, and therefore, if their drives are cut short of scoring or driving the length of the field, they won't take as much time off the clock as the opposition would with the same amount of snaps. That's one of the things that f.e. Brees was commenting on when the beginning of the season was played under the control of the replacement refs, claiming that the replacement refs were hindering the way Saints want to play on the offense because it was taking so much longer for them to spot the ball compared to the standard refs. Maybe that tilt in the time of possession is related strongly to the fact that SP isn't calling the plays this season, which has resulted in more 3 and outs or just more repetitive play calling as a whole which has made it easier for the opposition to stop Saints' offensive drives?!
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

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