Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon

TheOak · 11-27-2012, 01:50 PM

Obviously the most expensive part on my car, the 558 hp Super Charged motor is why I cant drive my car on a flat tire, its also the reason the wipers dont clear all of the water from my wind shield....

I really love to blame it for my DVD player not being able to play scratched DVDs.

FinSaint · 11-27-2012, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Call me a homer all you like. You are just plain narrow of vision if you put it all on Drew. Had he taken another 5 sacks people would be screaming Drew wouldn't get rid of the ball..

Funny enough, I never said it was all Brees' fault that the Saints lost that game, but that he was probably the single biggest reason why it happened.

On the Brooks pick 6 play, Brees had a good pocket and no pass rusher in his face when he threw that ball, so it's really hard for me to blame any other player as much as Brees for that play and its outcome.

The pass pressure increased as the game went on, and that was directly correlated with the fact that the Saints once again pretty abandoned the run in the 2nd half as they were playing catch up for pretty much the whole 2nd half. The 49ers knew that the Saints were going to pass, and, therefore, they could dial up more pass pressure packages because of that. If the Saints would've gone into the halftime with a TD lead, things could've been very different in that aspect as well, because even if the 49ers would've scored on their first drive of the 3rd quarter, the game would've only been tied at that point and the Saints could've put up a drive themselves for the lead.

Now I know that's a lot of would've-could've-should'ves, but Brees made that costly mistake to end the 2nd quarter when he was not forced to do it by pass rushers and while he had clear vision of Brooks dropping back from the line of scrimmage to be in position to intercept any incoming passes. Maybe it was Brees' hubris of being able to make that difficult pass to where there were four 49er players and only one Saints or maybe there's another explanation, but that was an unnecessary and costly mistake he made, which changed the complexion of that game by a great deal.

Danno · 11-27-2012, 02:03 PM

I think it can be summed up by saying Drew Brees didn't play up to Drew Brees' standards in that 49er game, which is primarily why we lost that 49er game.

It can also be said that if we replaced Brees with an average NFL QB in that 49er game, we get blown out by 3 or 4 scores.

FinSaint · 11-27-2012, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

I think it can be summed up by saying Drew Brees didn't play up to Drew Brees' standards in that 49er game, which is primarily why we lost that 49er game.

It can also be said that if we replaced Brees with an average NFL QB in that 49er game, we get blown out by 3 or 4 scores.

I totally agree, and I was simply talking about this 49ers game when I was placing blame on Brees - not about the season as a whole.

And I agree that replacing Brees with another QB, even one that was above average, would in all likelihood result in more losses and with less overall scoring, and I'm in no way saying that Brees should be replaced!

But - just to play the devil's advocate - if you were to replace Brees with an average QB: a lot of other things would also change along with that if we are not talking about a scenario where Brees wound up on the IR and had to be replaced by Daniel. For example, $20M could land a couple of studs on the defense and/or an excellent pair of OTs, who could create a dominant run game and/or really good pass protection for the average QB taking over for Brees. So, it's really hard to just imagine a scenario where Brees was replaced by another QB, but the rest of the team remained the same - especially the offensive game-plan.

Danno · 11-27-2012, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I totally agree, and I was simply talking about this 49ers game when I was placing blame on Brees - not about the season as a whole.

And I agree that replacing Brees with another QB, even one that was above average, would in all likelihood result in more losses and with less overall scoring, and I'm in no way saying that Brees should be replaced!

But - just to play the devil's advocate - if you were to replace Brees with an average QB: a lot of other things would also change along with that if we are not talking about a scenario where Brees wound up on the IR and had to be replaced by Daniel. For example, $20M could land a couple of studs on the defense and/or an excellent pair of OTs, who could create a dominant run game and/or really good pass protection for the average QB taking over for Brees. So, it's really hard to just imagine a scenario where Brees was replaced by another QB, but the rest of the team remained the same - especially the offensive game-plan.

Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB.

Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that.

I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not.

FinSaint · 11-27-2012, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB.

Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that.

I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not.

True, I was only saying that it's very hard to just think about how different things would be if we were to replace Brees with a lower quality QB and keep it relative to how the rest of the team would be structured and how they'd perform within that system, because they definitely couldn't run the same offensive system with a lesser QB at the helm.

xan · 11-27-2012, 03:13 PM

Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure.

Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC.

Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less.

Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.

FinSaint · 11-27-2012, 03:35 PM

The time of possession is a concern, but it is only compounded by the fact that the Saints want to be a fast pace offense, and therefore, if their drives are cut short of scoring or driving the length of the field, they won't take as much time off the clock as the opposition would with the same amount of snaps.

That's one of the things that f.e. Brees was commenting on when the beginning of the season was played under the control of the replacement refs, claiming that the replacement refs were hindering the way Saints want to play on the offense because it was taking so much longer for them to spot the ball compared to the standard refs.

Maybe that tilt in the time of possession is related strongly to the fact that SP isn't calling the plays this season, which has resulted in more 3 and outs or just more repetitive play calling as a whole which has made it easier for the opposition to stop Saints' offensive drives?!

TheOak · 11-27-2012, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by xan

Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure.

Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC.

Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less.

Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.

Source?

SaintsBro · 11-27-2012, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by xan

Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.

Same people? Ben Grubbs? Bryce Harris? Joe Morgan for part of the year instead of Devery? Charles Brown? That's nowhere near the same people as last season. Not to even mention the new receivers coach, the O-line coach doubling as head coach, and the overall lack of a head coach to put the game plan together each week. Everything is exactly the same as last year, totally.

11-27-2012, 01:50 PM	#41
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Obviously the most expensive part on my car, the 558 hp Super Charged motor is why I cant drive my car on a flat tire, its also the reason the wipers dont clear all of the water from my wind shield.... I really love to blame it for my DVD player not being able to play scratched DVDs. saintfan, Danno, SapperSaint and 1 others like this.

11-27-2012, 01:55 PM	#42
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by TheOak Call me a homer all you like. You are just plain narrow of vision if you put it all on Drew. Had he taken another 5 sacks people would be screaming Drew wouldn't get rid of the ball.. Funny enough, I never said it was all Brees' fault that the Saints lost that game, but that he was probably the single biggest reason why it happened. On the Brooks pick 6 play, Brees had a good pocket and no pass rusher in his face when he threw that ball, so it's really hard for me to blame any other player as much as Brees for that play and its outcome. The pass pressure increased as the game went on, and that was directly correlated with the fact that the Saints once again pretty abandoned the run in the 2nd half as they were playing catch up for pretty much the whole 2nd half. The 49ers knew that the Saints were going to pass, and, therefore, they could dial up more pass pressure packages because of that. If the Saints would've gone into the halftime with a TD lead, things could've been very different in that aspect as well, because even if the 49ers would've scored on their first drive of the 3rd quarter, the game would've only been tied at that point and the Saints could've put up a drive themselves for the lead. Now I know that's a lot of would've-could've-should'ves, but Brees made that costly mistake to end the 2nd quarter when he was not forced to do it by pass rushers and while he had clear vision of Brooks dropping back from the line of scrimmage to be in position to intercept any incoming passes. Maybe it was Brees' hubris of being able to make that difficult pass to where there were four 49er players and only one Saints or maybe there's another explanation, but that was an unnecessary and costly mistake he made, which changed the complexion of that game by a great deal.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

11-27-2012, 02:03 PM	#43
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon I think it can be summed up by saying Drew Brees didn't play up to Drew Brees' standards in that 49er game, which is primarily why we lost that 49er game. It can also be said that if we replaced Brees with an average NFL QB in that 49er game, we get blown out by 3 or 4 scores. TheOak likes this.

11-27-2012, 02:52 PM	#44
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by Danno I think it can be summed up by saying Drew Brees didn't play up to Drew Brees' standards in that 49er game, which is primarily why we lost that 49er game. It can also be said that if we replaced Brees with an average NFL QB in that 49er game, we get blown out by 3 or 4 scores. I totally agree, and I was simply talking about this 49ers game when I was placing blame on Brees - not about the season as a whole. And I agree that replacing Brees with another QB, even one that was above average, would in all likelihood result in more losses and with less overall scoring, and I'm in no way saying that Brees should be replaced! But - just to play the devil's advocate - if you were to replace Brees with an average QB: a lot of other things would also change along with that if we are not talking about a scenario where Brees wound up on the IR and had to be replaced by Daniel. For example, $20M could land a couple of studs on the defense and/or an excellent pair of OTs, who could create a dominant run game and/or really good pass protection for the average QB taking over for Brees. So, it's really hard to just imagine a scenario where Brees was replaced by another QB, but the rest of the team remained the same - especially the offensive game-plan.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

11-27-2012, 03:00 PM	#45
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by FinSaint I totally agree, and I was simply talking about this 49ers game when I was placing blame on Brees - not about the season as a whole. And I agree that replacing Brees with another QB, even one that was above average, would in all likelihood result in more losses and with less overall scoring, and I'm in no way saying that Brees should be replaced! But - just to play the devil's advocate - if you were to replace Brees with an average QB: a lot of other things would also change along with that if we are not talking about a scenario where Brees wound up on the IR and had to be replaced by Daniel. For example, $20M could land a couple of studs on the defense and/or an excellent pair of OTs, who could create a dominant run game and/or really good pass protection for the average QB taking over for Brees. So, it's really hard to just imagine a scenario where Brees was replaced by another QB, but the rest of the team remained the same - especially the offensive game-plan. Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB. Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that. I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not.

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11-27-2012, 03:03 PM	#46
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by Danno Resource allocation is a definite factor, but looking at the last dozen Superbowl winners its apparent the one denominator is a franchise QB. Defense no longer wins championships in our current pass happy league. Recent rule changes have seen to that. I think 20 million for a franchise QB is necessary. Its what we do with the other 100 million that'll decide if we win another one or not. True, I was only saying that it's very hard to just think about how different things would be if we were to replace Brees with a lower quality QB and keep it relative to how the rest of the team would be structured and how they'd perform within that system, because they definitely couldn't run the same offensive system with a lesser QB at the helm.

11-27-2012, 03:13 PM	#47
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,369 Blog Entries: 34	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure. Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC. Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less. Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

11-27-2012, 03:35 PM	#48
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon The time of possession is a concern, but it is only compounded by the fact that the Saints want to be a fast pace offense, and therefore, if their drives are cut short of scoring or driving the length of the field, they won't take as much time off the clock as the opposition would with the same amount of snaps. That's one of the things that f.e. Brees was commenting on when the beginning of the season was played under the control of the replacement refs, claiming that the replacement refs were hindering the way Saints want to play on the offense because it was taking so much longer for them to spot the ball compared to the standard refs. Maybe that tilt in the time of possession is related strongly to the fact that SP isn't calling the plays this season, which has resulted in more 3 and outs or just more repetitive play calling as a whole which has made it easier for the opposition to stop Saints' offensive drives?!
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

11-27-2012, 03:39 PM	#49
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by xan Same number of possessions as last year, 5 minutes per game less possession time. BY DEFINITION, not a defensive problem. 4 healthy RBs. Until Sunday, entire O-Line healthy. And, neither pick6 was due to pressure. Good thing that Brees doesn't have the imperative to call audibles or give input on strategy before or during games. Otherwise, the observations about not running the ball, or time of possession on most 3-outs being under 70 seconds would be his fault, rather than the OC or HC. Last season we were the best offense, scoring 5 more points, holding the ball 5 more minutes, committing fewer turnovers, punting 30% less. Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money. Source?

11-27-2012, 03:46 PM	#50
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Jump on the Brees' fault bandwagon Originally Posted by xan Same people. Only they make more guaranteed money. Same people? Ben Grubbs? Bryce Harris? Joe Morgan for part of the year instead of Devery? Charles Brown? That's nowhere near the same people as last season. Not to even mention the new receivers coach, the O-line coach doubling as head coach, and the overall lack of a head coach to put the game plan together each week. Everything is exactly the same as last year, totally.

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