Khiry Robinson runs nasty

Tobias-Reiper · 09-24-2013, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

How so? I am simply showing you what Robinson does that is good; if a baseball player has a really good swing, then he can probably hit home runs off of good pitchers too, not just bad ones. Does Robinson have a good swing? Sure looks like it from what we've seen.

And that's great and all, but if you didn't notice, PT and Sproles did that as well and much more, and couldn't gain a yard the first half. Now going against a defeated, tired defense that's just going through the motions waiting for the game to end, yeah, anyone can look good.

This analogy makes less than zero sense. I have re-read this sentence at least five times and I am still like "WTF is he talking about?" The two situations have absolutely nothing in common, except they are both things that take place on a football field.

Really? Both situations have nothing in common?
Both a 2 yard loss during a goal line stand and a kneel down count as a running play for a 2 yard loss. But the situations are rather different, right? During the goal line stand, especially when the game is tied or close, the defense is trying their hardest to stop the TD; during the victory formation, the defense stands up and touches the guys in front of them.

Do you see it now?

Just like you wouldn't give the same credit to a defense for stopping the run during a victory formation, I don't give credit to a RB who comes in after the fight, against a defense that's defeated, tired, and just wants to see the clock hit 00:00 so they can take a shower and go home.

Jack Vegas · 09-25-2013, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

Just like you wouldn't give the same credit to a defense for stopping the run during a victory formation, I don't give credit to a RB who comes in after the fight, against a defense that's defeated, tired, and just wants to see the clock hit 00:00 so they can take a shower and go home.

And this is why I specifically pointed out carries 1 and 4 (Q4, 4:26 and Q4, 2:14).

These were both situations where the defense had all the gaps covered and the flow of the play was stopped, yet Robinson made something out of it anyway. Those plays had nothing to do with the defense being tired.

If Robinson had simply run through a couple of weak arm tackles, I might agree with you. But those plays were about his instincts and ability to find a hole that didn't exist relative to the original play call.

Originally Posted by dueceloose

He reminds me a lot of PT the way he puts his hand down and cuts.

He reminds me of both PT and Ivory in different ways. PT for the way he kind of shimmies his way around a tackle to get a couple of extra yards, same way Deuce used to do it too. And Ivory for the way he gets going so fast. Two steps and he's at full speed before he even hits the line.

I think the kid has the total package. The two big questions are, can he stay healthy, and can he block? Those are the two things that kept Ivory from becoming a much bigger part of the offense than he ended up being.

Budsdrinker · 09-24-2013, 12:41 PM

Obviously the coaching staff have their reasons for not starting KRob or playing him more right now. These are reasons none of us could know but it's easy for us fans to speculate. Majority on this board wished we would have traded Ingram instead of Ivory but where is Ivory at now? Hamstring injury again. Of course with Ingram also being injured that's not much of an argument but the point is the coaching staff and Loomis have their reasons for what they do and I think we just need to trust their decisions.

dueceloose · 09-24-2013, 12:56 PM

Here's my theory.. Khiry will get more playing time this Monday to let the staff know if they should or shouldn't go through with the trade or whatnot.

Me personally believe opportunity is opportunity. Especially when ur that 4th or 3rd guy trying to get noticed. Its how you earn your stripes and you are gonna start off small especially if you weren't a high draft pick. So those of you debating whether it mattered or not. It's just a taste of what may come. Just like preaeason.. Opportunity.

blackangold · 09-24-2013, 01:35 PM

Video of him...

Runs hard and is great catching balls out of the backfield. If he can stay healthy we have a diamond in the rough here.

Khiry Robinson RB - NFL Draft Promo - YouTube

TheOak · 09-24-2013, 02:17 PM

Ok so he gets more base defense... Settled.

What do we do? Get a RB that can get it done regardless or ask the opponent to not run Base Defense with 7 man front? Don't run at all if we see 7 up front?

I prefer to think he had an aggravated injury than he is rather useless against a seven man front. .

Boutte · 09-24-2013, 04:32 PM

I just don't understand how anybody can have watched Ingram for two years and sees anything more than an average (at best) RB.

And the "every time he comes it's a run" arguement goes right out the window when look at what Ivory did when given a chance because it was the same situation for him.

Jack Vegas · 09-24-2013, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Boutte

And the "every time he comes it's a run" arguement goes right out the window when look at what Ivory did when given a chance because it was the same situation for him.

Even moreso. The percentage of rushing plays when Ivory was in the game was something like 8 percent higher than Ingram, IIRC. There was a very good thread about this on Footballguys or Rotoworld a while back, illuminating stuff.

Utah_Saint · 09-24-2013, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Boutte

I just don't understand how anybody can have watched Ingram for two years and sees anything more than an average (at best) RB.

And the "every time he comes it's a run" arguement goes right out the window when look at what Ivory did when given a chance because it was the same situation for him.

And really, in the grand scheme of things, Pierre Thomas, Darren Sproles and Chris Ivory all had more yards per carry than Ingram.

Maybe we're not using Ingram right. Maybe he needs 20+ carries per game. Maybe he needs to get more involved in the passing game. Maybe he needs to run outside the tackles or sweeps more.

But in the end does it really matter what the cause is? Predictability, poor blocking, injury, strong headwinds, what ever the reason, the bottom line is, it's just not working.

Jack Vegas · 09-24-2013, 05:01 PM

The thread I mentioned earlier: Saints use of Mark Ingram borders on criminal - Page 3 - The Shark Pool (NFL Talk) - Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Highlights:

Not a pretty picture... top 10 carries/snaps for RB with more than 18 snaps + Ingram @ 18
Snps Carries PCT YPC
mathews 20 13 0.650 2.5
cj2k 43 25 0.581 2.8
williams 31 17 0.548 5.1
f jax 26 13 0.500 5.2
ingram 18 9 0.500 1.2
mccoy 65 31 0.477 5.9
spiller 37 17 0.459 2.4
mendenhall 35 16 0.457 3.8
tate 20 9 0.450 6.1
charles 36 16 0.444 4.8

For his career, Ivory is averaging an astonishing 5.1 yards per carry (compared to the 3.9 of Ingram) despite the fact that when he's in the game it's a telltale sign the Saints are running (74.9 percent of his snaps were on running plays), letting the offense key in on him.

I am not lamenting that we traded away Ivory, but when you see he still managed over 5.1 yards a carry even though his carry-to-snap ratio is a full 15% higher than Ingram (74 vs. 59), the "Ingram always faces 8 man fronts" argument becomes pretty much indefensible.

09-24-2013, 05:51 PM	#1
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty Originally Posted by Jack Vegas How so? I am simply showing you what Robinson does that is good; if a baseball player has a really good swing, then he can probably hit home runs off of good pitchers too, not just bad ones. Does Robinson have a good swing? Sure looks like it from what we've seen. And that's great and all, but if you didn't notice, PT and Sproles did that as well and much more, and couldn't gain a yard the first half. Now going against a defeated, tired defense that's just going through the motions waiting for the game to end, yeah, anyone can look good. This analogy makes less than zero sense. I have re-read this sentence at least five times and I am still like "WTF is he talking about?" The two situations have absolutely nothing in common, except they are both things that take place on a football field. Really? Both situations have nothing in common? Both a 2 yard loss during a goal line stand and a kneel down count as a running play for a 2 yard loss. But the situations are rather different, right? During the goal line stand, especially when the game is tied or close, the defense is trying their hardest to stop the TD; during the victory formation, the defense stands up and touches the guys in front of them. Do you see it now? Just like you wouldn't give the same credit to a defense for stopping the run during a victory formation, I don't give credit to a RB who comes in after the fight, against a defense that's defeated, tired, and just wants to see the clock hit 00:00 so they can take a shower and go home.
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

09-25-2013, 06:06 AM	#2
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper Just like you wouldn't give the same credit to a defense for stopping the run during a victory formation, I don't give credit to a RB who comes in after the fight, against a defense that's defeated, tired, and just wants to see the clock hit 00:00 so they can take a shower and go home. And this is why I specifically pointed out carries 1 and 4 (Q4, 4:26 and Q4, 2:14). These were both situations where the defense had all the gaps covered and the flow of the play was stopped, yet Robinson made something out of it anyway. Those plays had nothing to do with the defense being tired. If Robinson had simply run through a couple of weak arm tackles, I might agree with you. But those plays were about his instincts and ability to find a hole that didn't exist relative to the original play call. Originally Posted by dueceloose He reminds me a lot of PT the way he puts his hand down and cuts. He reminds me of both PT and Ivory in different ways. PT for the way he kind of shimmies his way around a tackle to get a couple of extra yards, same way Deuce used to do it too. And Ivory for the way he gets going so fast. Two steps and he's at full speed before he even hits the line. I think the kid has the total package. The two big questions are, can he stay healthy, and can he block? Those are the two things that kept Ivory from becoming a much bigger part of the offense than he ended up being.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

09-24-2013, 12:41 PM	#3
Budsdrinker A Cajun Transforming TX Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,787	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty Obviously the coaching staff have their reasons for not starting KRob or playing him more right now. These are reasons none of us could know but it's easy for us fans to speculate. Majority on this board wished we would have traded Ingram instead of Ivory but where is Ivory at now? Hamstring injury again. Of course with Ingram also being injured that's not much of an argument but the point is the coaching staff and Loomis have their reasons for what they do and I think we just need to trust their decisions.

09-24-2013, 12:56 PM	#4
dueceloose 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 957	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty Here's my theory.. Khiry will get more playing time this Monday to let the staff know if they should or shouldn't go through with the trade or whatnot. Me personally believe opportunity is opportunity. Especially when ur that 4th or 3rd guy trying to get noticed. Its how you earn your stripes and you are gonna start off small especially if you weren't a high draft pick. So those of you debating whether it mattered or not. It's just a taste of what may come. Just like preaeason.. Opportunity. SaintnDE likes this.
dueceloose 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 957

09-24-2013, 02:17 PM	#6
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,043	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty Ok so he gets more base defense... Settled. What do we do? Get a RB that can get it done regardless or ask the opponent to not run Base Defense with 7 man front? Don't run at all if we see 7 up front? I prefer to think he had an aggravated injury than he is rather useless against a seven man front. .

09-24-2013, 04:32 PM	#7
Boutte Site Donor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belle Chasse Posts: 1,701	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty I just don't understand how anybody can have watched Ingram for two years and sees anything more than an average (at best) RB. And the "every time he comes it's a run" arguement goes right out the window when look at what Ivory did when given a chance because it was the same situation for him. ChrisXVI likes this.

09-24-2013, 04:35 PM	#8
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty Originally Posted by Boutte And the "every time he comes it's a run" arguement goes right out the window when look at what Ivory did when given a chance because it was the same situation for him. Even moreso. The percentage of rushing plays when Ivory was in the game was something like 8 percent higher than Ingram, IIRC. There was a very good thread about this on Footballguys or Rotoworld a while back, illuminating stuff.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

09-24-2013, 05:37 PM	#9
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty Originally Posted by Boutte I just don't understand how anybody can have watched Ingram for two years and sees anything more than an average (at best) RB. And the "every time he comes it's a run" arguement goes right out the window when look at what Ivory did when given a chance because it was the same situation for him. And really, in the grand scheme of things, Pierre Thomas, Darren Sproles and Chris Ivory all had more yards per carry than Ingram. Maybe we're not using Ingram right. Maybe he needs 20+ carries per game. Maybe he needs to get more involved in the passing game. Maybe he needs to run outside the tackles or sweeps more. But in the end does it really matter what the cause is? Predictability, poor blocking, injury, strong headwinds, what ever the reason, the bottom line is, it's just not working.

09-24-2013, 05:01 PM	#10
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Khiry Robinson runs nasty The thread I mentioned earlier: Saints use of Mark Ingram borders on criminal - Page 3 - The Shark Pool (NFL Talk) - Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums Highlights: Not a pretty picture... top 10 carries/snaps for RB with more than 18 snaps + Ingram @ 18 Snps Carries PCT YPC mathews 20 13 0.650 2.5 cj2k 43 25 0.581 2.8 williams 31 17 0.548 5.1 f jax 26 13 0.500 5.2 ingram 18 9 0.500 1.2 mccoy 65 31 0.477 5.9 spiller 37 17 0.459 2.4 mendenhall 35 16 0.457 3.8 tate 20 9 0.450 6.1 charles 36 16 0.444 4.8 For his career, Ivory is averaging an astonishing 5.1 yards per carry (compared to the 3.9 of Ingram) despite the fact that when he's in the game it's a telltale sign the Saints are running (74.9 percent of his snaps were on running plays), letting the offense key in on him. I am not lamenting that we traded away Ivory, but when you see he still managed over 5.1 yards a carry even though his carry-to-snap ratio is a full 15% higher than Ingram (74 vs. 59), the "Ingram always faces 8 man fronts" argument becomes pretty much indefensible.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

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