I have a riddle for you

Mr.Riaton · 11-05-2013, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"...

Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line?

Answer ~ Both!

The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something.

When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group.

Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match.

Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel.

I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured.

We are not built like this describes:
Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore we can not do what this describes:
Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain

The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do?

....so,your saying its not Ingrams fault?

GeauxNOGeaux · 11-05-2013, 06:46 PM

I think we drafted Terron Armstead as a perfecr piece for Zone Blocking. Also high hopes that Jason Smith's career could be rejuvanted in New Orleans, which it was not. I think that if we still had Carl Nicks, Terron was healthy and a couple other pieces it would work but not now

SaintsBro · 11-05-2013, 07:09 PM

I secretly thought that they were gonna fix it over the bye, after the slightly stronger showing of the run game in New England. If they were gonna tear up the playbook and make the big switch, that would have been the time to do it.

I'm not so sure they can just flip a switch and go back to their old scheme in a single week, anyway. That's gonna be extremely messy, and for a team that's already way sloppier than normal, look out....

I will say this, I hardly ever criticize Payton, but this switch to zone blocking is the one solitary idea of his that I have really *not* bought into, ever since he first brought it up. From the very beginning, it felt to me like tinkering, change for the sake of change, or fixing what wasn't really broke in the first place. Unless there was something to it that I couldn't see, I never understood the reasoning for making the switch. Maybe he was watching a lot of the Texans during his year off, or all those practices we had with them, or something.

TheOak · 11-06-2013, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

I secretly thought that they were gonna fix it over the bye, after the slightly stronger showing of the run game in New England. If they were gonna tear up the playbook and make the big switch, that would have been the time to do it.

I'm not so sure they can just flip a switch and go back to their old scheme in a single week, anyway. That's gonna be extremely messy, and for a team that's already way sloppier than normal, look out....

I will say this, I hardly ever criticize Payton, but this switch to zone blocking is the one solitary idea of his that I have really *not* bought into, ever since he first brought it up. From the very beginning, it felt to me like tinkering, change for the sake of change, or fixing what wasn't really broke in the first place. Unless there was something to it that I couldn't see, I never understood the reasoning for making the switch. Maybe he was watching a lot of the Texans during his year off, or all those practices we had with them, or something.

I am hoping they save the surprise for a game that counts.

When you've played a blocking scheme for years, its like riding a bicycle.. Part of the issue we are having now besides that we are not built for it is that our linemen are having to think more than react, its evident in the amount of missed assignments and missed blocks. Getting back on the bike wouldn't be as messy as what we are doing now.

Playing Man is easy, you have a certain man you block according to the play called. Zone is the biatch because you are responsible for a gap and do not know which Defender is coming at you from which direction.. hence the need for agility and good feet so you can adjust.

Barry from MS · 11-05-2013, 08:40 PM

Agreed...O-line blocking scheme doesn't fit the personnel. It's illegal. And also, let's not forget--let's not forget, dude, that keeping wildlife, um, an amphibious rodent for, um, you know, domestic--within the city--that ain't legal either.

Barry from MS · 11-05-2013, 09:21 PM

Preach it, frydaddy. It's easy to let things get out of hand when it ain't face-to-face. Also, sarcasm is even harder to decode on here.

This thread had so much promise. Oak's analysis was freakin' awesome and there was some time, thought and research put into it.

frydaddy · 11-05-2013, 09:38 PM

Agreed on all points barry.

And I should apologize. I realize that some of what I said is not much better than what I'm griping about.. and I also don't mean to sound like a crybaby. It's just that I've been coming here for about 7 or 8 years now and it only seems to have gotten worse

Anyway.. Sorry Oak, wasn't trying to threadjack you. Back on topic now - I know it probably is much easier said than done, but I would rather see them go back to something similar to their previous scheme. Different O line coach, so I wouldn't expect it to be a seamless transition back to the old way. Just.. I dunno, maybe try playing to their strengths for cripes sake!

AlaskaSaints · 11-06-2013, 02:32 AM

It's going to be nice to have enough producers at productive positions to focus intently on some O-Line drafting and horse-trading in the spring, though.

We've got the offensive talent, it just seems out-of-sync.

Alaska

westbankdaze · 11-06-2013, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"...

Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line?

Answer ~ Both!

The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something.

When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group.

Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match.

Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel.

I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured.

We are not built like this describes:
Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore we can not do what this describes:
Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain

The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do?

So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine?

TheOak · 11-06-2013, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by westbankdaze

So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine?

Not sure I understand your questatement..

Kromer was replaced by Bret Ingalls who was our RB coach since 2009. Dan Roushar took over the RB job and was previously the OC at Michigan State.

So it would seem we replaced Aaron Kromer with a coach that has never coached an O-Line before and tasked him with implementing a new scheme. He was a Full back when he played and has held duties as OC at the college level but never an o-line coach.

Jut doesn't sound like a sound decision to me... You do one or the other but not both in the same year. New inexperienced o-line coach... fine. new Scheme with an experienced line coach.. fine.. Trying both at once... Not something i would do at this level.

11-05-2013, 06:32 PM	#1
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,308	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by TheOak If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"... Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line? Answer ~ Both! The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something. When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group. Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match. Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel. I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured. We are not built like this describes: Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Therefore we can not do what this describes: Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do? ....so,your saying its not Ingrams fault? saintfan and hagan714 like this.

11-05-2013, 06:46 PM	#2
GeauxNOGeaux Registered Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 30 Blog Entries: 1	Re: I have a riddle for you I think we drafted Terron Armstead as a perfecr piece for Zone Blocking. Also high hopes that Jason Smith's career could be rejuvanted in New Orleans, which it was not. I think that if we still had Carl Nicks, Terron was healthy and a couple other pieces it would work but not now

11-05-2013, 07:09 PM	#3
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: I have a riddle for you I secretly thought that they were gonna fix it over the bye, after the slightly stronger showing of the run game in New England. If they were gonna tear up the playbook and make the big switch, that would have been the time to do it. I'm not so sure they can just flip a switch and go back to their old scheme in a single week, anyway. That's gonna be extremely messy, and for a team that's already way sloppier than normal, look out.... I will say this, I hardly ever criticize Payton, but this switch to zone blocking is the one solitary idea of his that I have really not bought into, ever since he first brought it up. From the very beginning, it felt to me like tinkering, change for the sake of change, or fixing what wasn't really broke in the first place. Unless there was something to it that I couldn't see, I never understood the reasoning for making the switch. Maybe he was watching a lot of the Texans during his year off, or all those practices we had with them, or something. hagan714 likes this.

11-06-2013, 07:19 AM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,050	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by SaintsBro I secretly thought that they were gonna fix it over the bye, after the slightly stronger showing of the run game in New England. If they were gonna tear up the playbook and make the big switch, that would have been the time to do it. I'm not so sure they can just flip a switch and go back to their old scheme in a single week, anyway. That's gonna be extremely messy, and for a team that's already way sloppier than normal, look out.... I will say this, I hardly ever criticize Payton, but this switch to zone blocking is the one solitary idea of his that I have really not bought into, ever since he first brought it up. From the very beginning, it felt to me like tinkering, change for the sake of change, or fixing what wasn't really broke in the first place. Unless there was something to it that I couldn't see, I never understood the reasoning for making the switch. Maybe he was watching a lot of the Texans during his year off, or all those practices we had with them, or something. I am hoping they save the surprise for a game that counts. When you've played a blocking scheme for years, its like riding a bicycle.. Part of the issue we are having now besides that we are not built for it is that our linemen are having to think more than react, its evident in the amount of missed assignments and missed blocks. Getting back on the bike wouldn't be as messy as what we are doing now. Playing Man is easy, you have a certain man you block according to the play called. Zone is the biatch because you are responsible for a gap and do not know which Defender is coming at you from which direction.. hence the need for agility and good feet so you can adjust. hagan714 likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

11-05-2013, 08:40 PM	#5
Barry from MS Site Donor 2014 Join Date: May 2007 Location: TEMPO VC Okefenokee Swamp Posts: 1,985 Blog Entries: 2	Re: I have a riddle for you Agreed...O-line blocking scheme doesn't fit the personnel. It's illegal. And also, let's not forget--let's not forget, dude, that keeping wildlife, um, an amphibious rodent for, um, you know, domestic--within the city--that ain't legal either.

11-05-2013, 09:21 PM	#6
Barry from MS Site Donor 2014 Join Date: May 2007 Location: TEMPO VC Okefenokee Swamp Posts: 1,985 Blog Entries: 2	Re: I have a riddle for you Preach it, frydaddy. It's easy to let things get out of hand when it ain't face-to-face. Also, sarcasm is even harder to decode on here. This thread had so much promise. Oak's analysis was freakin' awesome and there was some time, thought and research put into it. WHODATINCA likes this.

11-05-2013, 09:38 PM	#7
frydaddy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Lafayette Posts: 1,964 Blog Entries: 1	Re: I have a riddle for you Agreed on all points barry. And I should apologize. I realize that some of what I said is not much better than what I'm griping about.. and I also don't mean to sound like a crybaby. It's just that I've been coming here for about 7 or 8 years now and it only seems to have gotten worse Anyway.. Sorry Oak, wasn't trying to threadjack you. Back on topic now - I know it probably is much easier said than done, but I would rather see them go back to something similar to their previous scheme. Different O line coach, so I wouldn't expect it to be a seamless transition back to the old way. Just.. I dunno, maybe try playing to their strengths for cripes sake!
	Mais forte do que a morte

11-06-2013, 02:32 AM	#8
AlaskaSaints 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 2,484 Blog Entries: 2	Re: I have a riddle for you It's going to be nice to have enough producers at productive positions to focus intently on some O-Line drafting and horse-trading in the spring, though. We've got the offensive talent, it just seems out-of-sync. Alaska hagan714 likes this.

11-06-2013, 06:09 AM	#9
westbankdaze 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 843	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by TheOak If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"... Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line? Answer ~ Both! The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something. When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group. Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match. Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel. I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured. We are not built like this describes: Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Therefore we can not do what this describes: Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do? So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine?
westbankdaze 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 843

11-06-2013, 07:09 AM	#10
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,050	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by westbankdaze So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine? Not sure I understand your questatement.. Kromer was replaced by Bret Ingalls who was our RB coach since 2009. Dan Roushar took over the RB job and was previously the OC at Michigan State. So it would seem we replaced Aaron Kromer with a coach that has never coached an O-Line before and tasked him with implementing a new scheme. He was a Full back when he played and has held duties as OC at the college level but never an o-line coach. Jut doesn't sound like a sound decision to me... You do one or the other but not both in the same year. New inexperienced o-line coach... fine. new Scheme with an experienced line coach.. fine.. Trying both at once... Not something i would do at this level. Danno likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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