I have a riddle for you

AlaskaSaints · 11-06-2013, 03:32 AM

It's going to be nice to have enough producers at productive positions to focus intently on some O-Line drafting and horse-trading in the spring, though.

We've got the offensive talent, it just seems out-of-sync.

Alaska

westbankdaze · 11-06-2013, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"...

Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line?

Answer ~ Both!

The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something.

When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group.

Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match.

Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel.

I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured.

We are not built like this describes:
Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore we can not do what this describes:
Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain

The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do?

So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine?

TheOak · 11-06-2013, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by westbankdaze

So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine?

Not sure I understand your questatement..

Kromer was replaced by Bret Ingalls who was our RB coach since 2009. Dan Roushar took over the RB job and was previously the OC at Michigan State.

So it would seem we replaced Aaron Kromer with a coach that has never coached an O-Line before and tasked him with implementing a new scheme. He was a Full back when he played and has held duties as OC at the college level but never an o-line coach.

Jut doesn't sound like a sound decision to me... You do one or the other but not both in the same year. New inexperienced o-line coach... fine. new Scheme with an experienced line coach.. fine.. Trying both at once... Not something i would do at this level.

TheOak · 11-06-2013, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

I secretly thought that they were gonna fix it over the bye, after the slightly stronger showing of the run game in New England. If they were gonna tear up the playbook and make the big switch, that would have been the time to do it.

I'm not so sure they can just flip a switch and go back to their old scheme in a single week, anyway. That's gonna be extremely messy, and for a team that's already way sloppier than normal, look out....

I will say this, I hardly ever criticize Payton, but this switch to zone blocking is the one solitary idea of his that I have really *not* bought into, ever since he first brought it up. From the very beginning, it felt to me like tinkering, change for the sake of change, or fixing what wasn't really broke in the first place. Unless there was something to it that I couldn't see, I never understood the reasoning for making the switch. Maybe he was watching a lot of the Texans during his year off, or all those practices we had with them, or something.

I am hoping they save the surprise for a game that counts.

When you've played a blocking scheme for years, its like riding a bicycle.. Part of the issue we are having now besides that we are not built for it is that our linemen are having to think more than react, its evident in the amount of missed assignments and missed blocks. Getting back on the bike wouldn't be as messy as what we are doing now.

Playing Man is easy, you have a certain man you block according to the play called. Zone is the biatch because you are responsible for a gap and do not know which Defender is coming at you from which direction.. hence the need for agility and good feet so you can adjust.

hagan714 · 11-06-2013, 09:01 AM

either way the saints need to address the OL. we have taking some gambles over the years and well they have not paid off. Drew is heading to a season being sacked more than ever before. there is an issue and it has to be addressed for the 2014 season. till then we get to see how good the coaching is. they need to control the bleeding and figure out what to do to stop it after. i am afraid it will be next year when we can stop it so lets be happy if we can get this under control.

Danno · 11-06-2013, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by hagan714

either way the saints need to address the OL. we have taking some gambles over the years and well they have not paid off. Drew is heading to a season being sacked more than ever before. there is an issue and it has to be addressed for the 2014 season. till then we get to see how good the coaching is. they need to control the bleeding and figure out what to do to stop it after. i am afraid it will be next year when we can stop it so lets be happy if we can get this under control.

I think it should also be noted that our O-line isn't terrible, we're just used to having a top 5 line.

I think we're probably upper third in pass pro and bottom third in run blocking.

But as you said, our bread and butter is Drew Brees. Giving him the assets he needs trumps every other need on the field. Right now it looks like a couple O-linemen and a top flight WR.

I look for major free-agency moves for both those positions this off-season.

hagan714 · 11-06-2013, 09:14 AM

no they are not all bad there are some pieces to keep. though strief is getting up there and we have seen the back up already and well they leave a lot to be desired. then i look at at the ps and scratch my head.

i understand wanting offensive toys but i think we have gone over board in that area. find some gems to develop on the OL and DL. stop signing WR and freaking CB. glamor only goes far you must win in the trenches first.

Alex Mack OC CLE is my deam signing at this point.

check back later when i get my head out of the clouds

in the draft i really like

Morgan Moses, ROT/OG Virginia he is perfect for the saints at RT. great run blocker and pass blocking has gotten really good since he lost 30+ pounds and moved to LOT. plus the big guy can move, that is all he does at Virigina. screens and miss direction play. big strong and athletic. i would not be surprised that at the combine his stock sky rockets. from the silly 4/5 ranking he has now to a 2/3.

Budsdrinker · 11-06-2013, 09:25 AM

Look, all teams get stuffed on running plays during games. Even Ivory was stuffed a couple of times for 0 or -yards. The difference is they continue to try and run the ball. As pass happy as Drew and Payton are, all they need is one negative play to give them a reason to abandon the run and they do it.
We have to run the ball 25 times a game period to have some sort of balance if not defenses will tee off on Brees and hit him a few times every game. Now this week against Homo and the girls it's likely to be a shootout with both teams abandoning the run early.

NonieT · 11-06-2013, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"...

Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line?

Answer ~ Both!

The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something.

When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group.

Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match.

Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel.

I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured.

We are not built like this describes:
Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore we can not do what this describes:
Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain

The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do?

If we can figure this out, and we're just fans, why can't those people on Airline Dr, figure it out. You would think they would have already known before zone blocking was implemented. The Saints DO NOT have the personnel for a zone blocking scheme.

TheOak · 11-06-2013, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by NonieT

If we can figure this out, and we're just fans, why can't those people on Airline Dr, figure it out. You would think they would have already known before zone blocking was implemented. The Saints DO NOT have the personnel for a zone blocking scheme.

Finally knowing a choice was wrong, and getting past the "owning" roadblock to change it isn't always a hurdle humans can easily overcome.

They know it, but have they admitted it yet.

It's also a dynamic situation. You see something isn't working but with the injuries we have had in oline it makes the root cause sort of gray.

11-06-2013, 03:32 AM	#31
AlaskaSaints 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 2,484 Blog Entries: 2	Re: I have a riddle for you It's going to be nice to have enough producers at productive positions to focus intently on some O-Line drafting and horse-trading in the spring, though. We've got the offensive talent, it just seems out-of-sync. Alaska hagan714 likes this.

11-06-2013, 07:09 AM	#32
westbankdaze 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 843	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by TheOak If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"... Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line? Answer ~ Both! The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something. When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group. Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match. Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel. I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured. We are not built like this describes: Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Therefore we can not do what this describes: Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do? So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine?
westbankdaze 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 843

11-06-2013, 08:09 AM	#33
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by westbankdaze So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine? Not sure I understand your questatement.. Kromer was replaced by Bret Ingalls who was our RB coach since 2009. Dan Roushar took over the RB job and was previously the OC at Michigan State. So it would seem we replaced Aaron Kromer with a coach that has never coached an O-Line before and tasked him with implementing a new scheme. He was a Full back when he played and has held duties as OC at the college level but never an o-line coach. Jut doesn't sound like a sound decision to me... You do one or the other but not both in the same year. New inexperienced o-line coach... fine. new Scheme with an experienced line coach.. fine.. Trying both at once... Not something i would do at this level. Danno likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

11-06-2013, 08:19 AM	#34
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by SaintsBro I secretly thought that they were gonna fix it over the bye, after the slightly stronger showing of the run game in New England. If they were gonna tear up the playbook and make the big switch, that would have been the time to do it. I'm not so sure they can just flip a switch and go back to their old scheme in a single week, anyway. That's gonna be extremely messy, and for a team that's already way sloppier than normal, look out.... I will say this, I hardly ever criticize Payton, but this switch to zone blocking is the one solitary idea of his that I have really not bought into, ever since he first brought it up. From the very beginning, it felt to me like tinkering, change for the sake of change, or fixing what wasn't really broke in the first place. Unless there was something to it that I couldn't see, I never understood the reasoning for making the switch. Maybe he was watching a lot of the Texans during his year off, or all those practices we had with them, or something. I am hoping they save the surprise for a game that counts. When you've played a blocking scheme for years, its like riding a bicycle.. Part of the issue we are having now besides that we are not built for it is that our linemen are having to think more than react, its evident in the amount of missed assignments and missed blocks. Getting back on the bike wouldn't be as messy as what we are doing now. Playing Man is easy, you have a certain man you block according to the play called. Zone is the biatch because you are responsible for a gap and do not know which Defender is coming at you from which direction.. hence the need for agility and good feet so you can adjust. hagan714 likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

11-06-2013, 09:01 AM	#35
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: I have a riddle for you either way the saints need to address the OL. we have taking some gambles over the years and well they have not paid off. Drew is heading to a season being sacked more than ever before. there is an issue and it has to be addressed for the 2014 season. till then we get to see how good the coaching is. they need to control the bleeding and figure out what to do to stop it after. i am afraid it will be next year when we can stop it so lets be happy if we can get this under control. Danno likes this.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins

Latest Blogs
2023 New Orleans Saints: Training Camp Last Blog: 08-01-2023 By: MarchingOn Puck the Fro Browl! Last Blog: 02-05-2023 By: neugey CFP: "Just Keep Doing What You're Doing" Last Blog: 12-08-2022 By: neugey

11-06-2013, 09:07 AM	#36
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by hagan714 either way the saints need to address the OL. we have taking some gambles over the years and well they have not paid off. Drew is heading to a season being sacked more than ever before. there is an issue and it has to be addressed for the 2014 season. till then we get to see how good the coaching is. they need to control the bleeding and figure out what to do to stop it after. i am afraid it will be next year when we can stop it so lets be happy if we can get this under control. I think it should also be noted that our O-line isn't terrible, we're just used to having a top 5 line. I think we're probably upper third in pass pro and bottom third in run blocking. But as you said, our bread and butter is Drew Brees. Giving him the assets he needs trumps every other need on the field. Right now it looks like a couple O-linemen and a top flight WR. I look for major free-agency moves for both those positions this off-season. hagan714 and Mr.Riaton like this.

11-06-2013, 09:14 AM	#37
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: I have a riddle for you no they are not all bad there are some pieces to keep. though strief is getting up there and we have seen the back up already and well they leave a lot to be desired. then i look at at the ps and scratch my head. i understand wanting offensive toys but i think we have gone over board in that area. find some gems to develop on the OL and DL. stop signing WR and freaking CB. glamor only goes far you must win in the trenches first. Alex Mack OC CLE is my deam signing at this point. check back later when i get my head out of the clouds in the draft i really like Morgan Moses, ROT/OG Virginia he is perfect for the saints at RT. great run blocker and pass blocking has gotten really good since he lost 30+ pounds and moved to LOT. plus the big guy can move, that is all he does at Virigina. screens and miss direction play. big strong and athletic. i would not be surprised that at the combine his stock sky rockets. from the silly 4/5 ranking he has now to a 2/3.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins Last edited by hagan714; 11-06-2013 at 09:33 AM..

11-06-2013, 09:25 AM	#38
Budsdrinker A Cajun Transforming TX Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,787	Re: I have a riddle for you Look, all teams get stuffed on running plays during games. Even Ivory was stuffed a couple of times for 0 or -yards. The difference is they continue to try and run the ball. As pass happy as Drew and Payton are, all they need is one negative play to give them a reason to abandon the run and they do it. We have to run the ball 25 times a game period to have some sort of balance if not defenses will tee off on Brees and hit him a few times every game. Now this week against Homo and the girls it's likely to be a shootout with both teams abandoning the run early.

11-06-2013, 09:44 AM	#39
NonieT 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 921	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by TheOak If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"... Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line? Answer ~ Both! The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something. When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group. Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match. Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel. I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured. We are not built like this describes: Zone blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Therefore we can not do what this describes: Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do? If we can figure this out, and we're just fans, why can't those people on Airline Dr, figure it out. You would think they would have already known before zone blocking was implemented. The Saints DO NOT have the personnel for a zone blocking scheme. hagan714 likes this.
NonieT 500th Post Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 921

11-06-2013, 10:04 AM	#40
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: I have a riddle for you Originally Posted by NonieT If we can figure this out, and we're just fans, why can't those people on Airline Dr, figure it out. You would think they would have already known before zone blocking was implemented. The Saints DO NOT have the personnel for a zone blocking scheme. Finally knowing a choice was wrong, and getting past the "owning" roadblock to change it isn't always a hurdle humans can easily overcome. They know it, but have they admitted it yet. It's also a dynamic situation. You see something isn't working but with the injuries we have had in oline it makes the root cause sort of gray. hagan714 likes this.

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: https://blackandgold.com/saints/61696-i-have-riddle-you.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date	Hits
I have a riddle for you	This thread	Refback	11-05-2013 07:08 PM	27
The Latest New Orleans Saints News \| SportSpyder	This thread	Refback	11-05-2013 06:57 PM	2