QB only

GumboBC · 01-28-2005, 10:15 PM

saintwhodi --

Would it be fair to say Ben had a better win/loss record than Eli because he had a better supporting cast?

Ben = 15-1
Eli = only won 1 game.

I\'m going to assume you said yes....

Both Eli and Ben were rookies, so advantage = push!!

Although, Eli had a dad and brother with NFL experienceto learn from. Advantage = Eli.

So, there must be a reason that Ben won 15-games and Eli only won 1.

Ben had a better offensive line. To me that was the biggest difference. Advantage = Steelers.

Both QBs had great running games. Advatange = Steelers. But not by much.

Then there were the defenses. Advantage = Steelers.

The point is... A QB is NOT defined by his TEAMS win loss record. Unless you want to pin all the Giants losses on Eli?

That\'s exactly what you are doing with Brooks.

Rookie QB vs. rookie QB.

Veteran QB vs. veteran QB.

It makes no difference. Their supporting casts make a huge difference in the win/loss records.

We had the worst defense in the league and probably had the worst offensive line in the league.

[Edited on 29/1/2005 by GumboBC]

saintswhodi · 01-29-2005, 12:40 AM

Well, I am glad you brought up the rest of the teams. When the Giants the Steelers, ELI OUTPLAYED Ben with worse receivers, a worse line, and a much worse defense. His team almost won too. Go look it up. So Eli\'s and Ben\'s win/loss records mean poop to me. I WILL SAY AGAIN, EITHER IS BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE SO I WOULD TAKE EITHER ONE OVER LEON. If Eli could almost beat the number one team in the league with the number one D in the league with the crap he had around him, I have ZERO doubt he would be better than Brooks. ZERO. I already shot down that bad line bad defense stuff with Minny and the Rams, both in the playoffs, both won a game. Both have better qbs. You can spare me the same points I have already argued.

Joe_Buddens · 01-29-2005, 01:10 AM

Both also beat suspect teams in a weak conference in the 1st round. Both needed help from others to qualify. Both are no better than the Saints.

Joe_Buddens · 01-29-2005, 01:14 AM

And I think you may be stretching it a little when you say Culpepper and Bulger are better than Brooks. All of their turnover stats look frightingly similar.

mutineer10 · 01-29-2005, 06:29 AM

\"Let\'s face it, Leon can\'t do everything...\"

saintswhodi · 01-29-2005, 09:52 AM

Joe, so what you are saying is Culpepper, who woulda been the MVP OF THE LEAGUE with 39 tds W/O Randy Moss for half the season is not better than Leon? And Bulger who went 12-4 his first year as a starter and has been in the playoffs the last 3 years IS NOT better than Leon? With suspect teams? Beyond Moss, the Vikes have RARELY had another receiver. Definitely no pro bowl RBs. Deuce has gone, we still didn\'t go to the playoffs. Vikes have ALWAYS had a bad D, they still go to the playoffs. I am sorry Joe, I am gonna have to call BS on that. Tell me, would you trade AB for Culpepper straight up right now? Or Bulger? I would. I would also trade him for Carr, Leftwich, Palmer, Eli, Ben, Volek, Green, Hasselbek, Grossman, Delhomme, Brees, Maddox, Plummer, and Pennington among non hall of fame qbs currently playing.

ScottyRo · 01-29-2005, 10:06 AM

Trading AB straight up:

The YES group: (* = a QB i\'d really like to have)
Culpepper*
Green
Hasselbek
Brees*
Plummer
Pennington*

The No, cuz we need to get more outta the deal Group:
Carr
Leftwitch
Volek
Delhomme

The NO Group:
Palmer
Eli
Ben
Maddox
Grossman

saintswhodi · 01-29-2005, 10:26 AM

Nice breakdown Scotty. I appreciate your opinion but I will disagree as any qb listed, I would trade for AB straight up no strings attached.

Joe Bud, I also would like to know if you think the Vikes would have won more games had their best offensive player not been hurt half the year and had their best secondary player Winfield had not been hurt for several games? Also would the Rams have won more if Bulger had not missed two games that they lost with Chandler as the starter and tgheir coach saying the qb position \"held his team hostage?\" Then they BOTH would have had better records than us. How many games do you think the Saints would win without Horn? Very few i\'d bet. Also, you do realize the Rams would have beaten us on yet another red zone turnover by AB(he led the league among qbs ya know) had Aeneas Williams remembered how to intercept and not tipped the ball to Horn. It was right in his hands. Joe bailed AB out, again.

ScottyRo · 01-29-2005, 10:41 AM

Whodi, Deuce missed 3 games and was injured thereafter. Mightn\'t we have won more if not for that?

LongTimeFan · 01-29-2005, 10:46 AM

As I said before, I would only trade Brooks for a better (Top % qb), Cullpepper and Brees would for well in N.O but that won\'t happen so keep Brooks until the Saints come acroos a better qb.
As far as trading Brooks for a Bledsoe type player who\'s at the end of his career doesn\'t make sense to me, and a rookie would set us back to a point that we would have to start from scratch, would I like to see a Brooks-Culpepper trade, of course but might as well forget about that
Botom line, it\'s Brooks or a rookie because I don\'t see a free-agent that is worth anything leaving their team

[Edited on 30/1/2005 by LongTimeFan]

[Edited on 31/1/2005 by LongTimeFan]

01-28-2005, 10:15 PM	#21
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	QB only saintwhodi -- Would it be fair to say Ben had a better win/loss record than Eli because he had a better supporting cast? Ben = 15-1 Eli = only won 1 game. I\'m going to assume you said yes.... Both Eli and Ben were rookies, so advantage = push!! Although, Eli had a dad and brother with NFL experienceto learn from. Advantage = Eli. So, there must be a reason that Ben won 15-games and Eli only won 1. Ben had a better offensive line. To me that was the biggest difference. Advantage = Steelers. Both QBs had great running games. Advatange = Steelers. But not by much. Then there were the defenses. Advantage = Steelers. The point is... A QB is NOT defined by his TEAMS win loss record. Unless you want to pin all the Giants losses on Eli? That\'s exactly what you are doing with Brooks. Rookie QB vs. rookie QB. Veteran QB vs. veteran QB. It makes no difference. Their supporting casts make a huge difference in the win/loss records. We had the worst defense in the league and probably had the worst offensive line in the league. [Edited on 29/1/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-29-2005, 12:40 AM	#22
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	QB only Well, I am glad you brought up the rest of the teams. When the Giants the Steelers, ELI OUTPLAYED Ben with worse receivers, a worse line, and a much worse defense. His team almost won too. Go look it up. So Eli\'s and Ben\'s win/loss records mean poop to me. I WILL SAY AGAIN, EITHER IS BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE SO I WOULD TAKE EITHER ONE OVER LEON. If Eli could almost beat the number one team in the league with the number one D in the league with the crap he had around him, I have ZERO doubt he would be better than Brooks. ZERO. I already shot down that bad line bad defense stuff with Minny and the Rams, both in the playoffs, both won a game. Both have better qbs. You can spare me the same points I have already argued.

01-29-2005, 01:10 AM	#23
Joe_Buddens Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16	QB only Both also beat suspect teams in a weak conference in the 1st round. Both needed help from others to qualify. Both are no better than the Saints.
Joe_Buddens Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16

01-29-2005, 01:14 AM	#24
Joe_Buddens Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16	QB only And I think you may be stretching it a little when you say Culpepper and Bulger are better than Brooks. All of their turnover stats look frightingly similar.
Joe_Buddens Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16

01-29-2005, 06:29 AM	#25
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	QB only \"Let\'s face it, Leon can\'t do everything...\"

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01-29-2005, 09:52 AM	#26
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	QB only Joe, so what you are saying is Culpepper, who woulda been the MVP OF THE LEAGUE with 39 tds W/O Randy Moss for half the season is not better than Leon? And Bulger who went 12-4 his first year as a starter and has been in the playoffs the last 3 years IS NOT better than Leon? With suspect teams? Beyond Moss, the Vikes have RARELY had another receiver. Definitely no pro bowl RBs. Deuce has gone, we still didn\'t go to the playoffs. Vikes have ALWAYS had a bad D, they still go to the playoffs. I am sorry Joe, I am gonna have to call BS on that. Tell me, would you trade AB for Culpepper straight up right now? Or Bulger? I would. I would also trade him for Carr, Leftwich, Palmer, Eli, Ben, Volek, Green, Hasselbek, Grossman, Delhomme, Brees, Maddox, Plummer, and Pennington among non hall of fame qbs currently playing.

01-29-2005, 10:06 AM	#27
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	QB only Trading AB straight up: The YES group: (* = a QB i\'d really like to have) Culpepper* Green Hasselbek Brees* Plummer Pennington* The No, cuz we need to get more outta the deal Group: Carr Leftwitch Volek Delhomme The NO Group: Palmer Eli Ben Maddox Grossman

01-29-2005, 10:26 AM	#28
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	QB only Nice breakdown Scotty. I appreciate your opinion but I will disagree as any qb listed, I would trade for AB straight up no strings attached. Joe Bud, I also would like to know if you think the Vikes would have won more games had their best offensive player not been hurt half the year and had their best secondary player Winfield had not been hurt for several games? Also would the Rams have won more if Bulger had not missed two games that they lost with Chandler as the starter and tgheir coach saying the qb position \"held his team hostage?\" Then they BOTH would have had better records than us. How many games do you think the Saints would win without Horn? Very few i\'d bet. Also, you do realize the Rams would have beaten us on yet another red zone turnover by AB(he led the league among qbs ya know) had Aeneas Williams remembered how to intercept and not tipped the ball to Horn. It was right in his hands. Joe bailed AB out, again.

01-29-2005, 10:41 AM	#29
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	QB only Whodi, Deuce missed 3 games and was injured thereafter. Mightn\'t we have won more if not for that?

01-29-2005, 10:46 AM	#30
LongTimeFan Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Louisiana Posts: 2,403	QB only As I said before, I would only trade Brooks for a better (Top % qb), Cullpepper and Brees would for well in N.O but that won\'t happen so keep Brooks until the Saints come acroos a better qb. As far as trading Brooks for a Bledsoe type player who\'s at the end of his career doesn\'t make sense to me, and a rookie would set us back to a point that we would have to start from scratch, would I like to see a Brooks-Culpepper trade, of course but might as well forget about that Botom line, it\'s Brooks or a rookie because I don\'t see a free-agent that is worth anything leaving their team [Edited on 30/1/2005 by LongTimeFan] [Edited on 31/1/2005 by LongTimeFan]
	Rest In Peace JoeSam, thanks for everything my friend.