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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; LOL. For some reason I expected a different response, and I can\'t imagine why....
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02-01-2005, 12:18 PM | #82 |
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Why in the world am I doing this?!
Whodi, nice stuff. In order to keep this thread on track, I\'ve quoted your excellent work here quite extensively:
I think in this case it was a little of both. This post of yours, while just as intelligent as all the earlier ones was much more pleasant to read. Do you think perhaps you toned it down just a bit? I\'m more of a discusser than an arguer most of the time. I don\'t like to have to feel defensive. If I say something wrong, I want to be corrected; however, I don\'t want to be replied to, I wan\'t the points discussed. I think this post of yours shows alot of that kind of virtue - a lot of people seem to think it is a shouting match or a pissing contest, I don\'t really like that.
The thing is there are very good QBs who do not have a career 60% - McNabb, for example. So saying anyone who can\'t muster a 60% is pretty much worthless is just a bit of an overstatement. In fact, in my VERY BRIEF and not too conclusive search, I found most QBs who last awhile in the NFL have roughly a 58-63%.
The guys I looked at were guys who came in and played right away - Leftwich and Boller. I think their stats are a better indication of what a guy coming right in here will do.
Impasse is a fine result with me. I wasn\'t saying that AB is going to win us games on his own, but some people were saying he couldn\'t. I\'m happy to say we don\'t really know which of those are true.
In all seriousness dude, I\'m sorry I made you feel like I wasn\'t listening. I\'m doing my best to keep up.
AB\'s stats don\'t show he\'s incompetent. His on field play, while up and down, doesn\'t show that. In fact, it seems to me that most people just think he\'s kind of frustrating and not at the top of the pack - there are very few who seem to think that he just isn\'t an NFL quality QB, period. Sure, somedays he\'s incompetent, but other days he sure isn\'t. Perhaps this matters: \"seem him AS incompetent\". Is that just some sort of value judgement? I can maybe understand how someone might see him AS incompetent, but to see THAT he IS incompetent seems to me a bit of an overstatement.
I guess, I just don\'t see what you mean by incompetent.
You said: \"I also fail to see how where his defense was ranked explains a low completion percentage and passer rating. You are gonna have to explain that one to me Kool.\" I figured we probably agreed on this one, but I was merely responding to a well put challenge. I\'d said this: \"ABs stats have actually improved every season that he has started a full season in terms of passer rating (which is a rough summary of all the QB stats) until this year (when the running game was down, the line sucked and our defense sucked) - 76 in 01, 80 in 02, 89 in \'03. Thus, I\'m no longer sure I agree with this AB keeps getting worse thingy. He\'s roughly the same or better.\"
PS - On the Three Amigos thing. Nicely done. I still thought they were pretty good, but maybe it was because I was a kid and I am misremembering that. Stop destroying my fond childhood memories... snif. PPS - Seriously dude, this has been a very good disucssion in this thread. It has made me think pretty hard, and my view is moderating some (maybe even more). [Edited on 1/2/2005 by JKool] [Edited on 1/2/2005 by JKool] |
"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks
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02-01-2005, 01:44 PM | #83 |
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Dang Kool, you tackled everything. Nicely done. But these things are getting longer and longer so I will save us both some time. First, is for you. You are a classy dude, and put out decent arguments and aren\'t just out to try to make anyone look silly. That hopefully is what keeps our arguments on even keel, and not deteriorating like others generally do. Much respect to you my man.
I know I took notice of that you said, and even though I felt I may not have been doing what your initial inkling was, I tried a slightly different approach. I see you approved. Truly, the fact someone doesn\'t remember a player is not a an indicator of their knowledge, and I tried to express that. It is something I pride myself on though, and don\'t really expect it from others. My bad if you felt I did. For what it\'s worth, if we drafted a guy I KNEW was gonna take over for AB after next year, i would be fine with him staying. As it is, we have shippet our every piece of competition he has had, and his salary is too high to just be a stop gap. That doesn\'t lend me a lot of confidence, but I will go along with that. So let\'s hope they draft a guy. I will also agree a guy COULD come in and do worse than AB, but you know on which side my bread is buttered. I don\'t BELIEVE they would. But that is a matter of faith and has no basis in fact. So I will take the middling approach that a new guy(rokie or journeyman) could do worse, but he could also do better. If I suggested 60% passer completion, then I stick by it. Most decent QBs are at that number are higher. There are starters who are below, but they rarely go far i.e. McNabb. His completion percentage sky-rocketed this year, and they got over the hump even without TO. AB NEVER gets 60%, and that\'s a fact. EVER. Makes it that muchharder IMHO. I have no evidence that suggests though that another guy could come in and get 60%, but winning QBs seem to be at that level or higher. Impasse on whether AB can win a game or not. That\'s another shake at the 50 and go in different directions argument. We both agree McNabb is definitely a cut above AB, stats aside. Though I would point to Donovan\'s supporting cast pre-TO as a good reasonf or that. Nonetheless, it shows starts aren\'t always the whole story. So if we don\'t use stats, then the ones AB puts up should be just as irrelevant. And if we don\'t use W/L or passer rating, I also have no idea where we go form there. Like/dislike? My list gets even longer for replacing AB if that\'s the case. I like your ratio for AB, but TD/INT ratio is not the whole story. TD/turnover ratio is. If we look at TD/turnover ratio, I am sure it would be worse than 3-2. I guess that is where we may look at this different. A fumble is just as bad as an INT, and probably worse from the QB since the defense generally gets the ball in good field position(not downfiled like an INT) or have prevented us from scoring with another red zone turnover. So withthe fumbles, the ratio is more like 45 TDS 37 turnovers which is more like 1.2-1 or 2.4-2 or whatever. That ain\'t cutting the mustard for me. On the salaries, if we are gonna get an impact guy like everyone wants, say at least an impact LB and an impact T, the LB will be in the 5 mil range for next year and the T in the same arena, depending on base and bonus. That\'s at least 10 mil on two impact players each at a key position of need. So we can say the 2-6 mil range, but it will be more like the 4-6 mil range. AB\'s salary off the books sure would help that. But our cap guy hasn\'t spoken, so I will leave that alone. I don\'t want any confusion so let me clarify on this point. I think AB is incompetent and unable to lead us period, let alone to the Superbowl. I do not feel we will ever win in any significant manner with him as QB, thus my joke about bringing Blake back and letting him give AB a 7-4 head start on his record like he did the playoff year. I have no confidence in him taking us anywhere for a full season. I used to, in spades. But not any more. No prob on the 3 amigos. Like I said, they may have been better later, but not during the first Superbowl year for Elway, which is what was being spoken of. An the excellent work is mainly on your part, keeping me in line. Good points brotha. I am leaning more towards seeing where you are coming from, but I am sold on AB not being the answer. |
02-01-2005, 01:46 PM | #84 |
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I tried to find middle ground on a lot, and clarify some other positions, I don\'t know if it saved time or not, so you can let me know. :P
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02-01-2005, 02:51 PM | #85 |
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Whodi,
(1) (2) I like the point on fumbles, but I think that is a point for another thread. I have a view on AB and the fumbles, but it doesn\'t seem to go directly to whether AB should stay or go. (3) I think what we\'ve shown is that in the case of AB, his stats aren\'t conclusive one way or the other. That doesn\'t mean that were they used for making particular arguments (or if they were better or worse) they wouldn\'t matter. I do think that stats can be used for a number of things; they just aren\'t getting the job done in deciding this. (4) One of the best things that came out of this for me was a much better understanding of what a rookie could do and in what time frame depending on facts about the team he is drafted to. (5) I think an impasse on whether or not AB can win games rather than not simply lose them is a serious discovery. Nice work. (6) I think we had a lot of common ground to begin with. I also think I learned a lot. This thread, no matter what anyone else says, was very much worth it for me. Thanks for all the insights. Maybe someone will pick up on \"how to evaluate a QB\" and help us both learn something there? (7) Thanks for saving time. I don\'t think I could commit myself to another monster post like that previous one. |
"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks
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02-01-2005, 02:53 PM | #86 |
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Oh yeah,
AND |
02-01-2005, 03:03 PM | #87 |
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:thumbsup:
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