NFC South

JKool · 02-19-2005, 05:43 PM

Alright, it was bound to happen, so I\'ll do it:

Thanks for the extra info whodi. I\'m glad that other people also see that the O-Line doesn\'t matter if the QB is a BUM

What?

At the very least the OLine still has to block for the running game, don\'t they?

WhoDat · 02-19-2005, 09:36 PM

Why do you hold it against Brooks that he held out? And said he was one of the top QBs in the NFL to get the big money. That\'s exactly what I would have done.

Football is a business, also. On any job, you get what you can get and you do whatever you have to to get it.

Billy - I\'m going to have to take issue with a couple of things you\'ve said. Let\'s try to keep this civil. I disagree, but I\'m not attacking you...

First, football players have probably done more to bastardize the term \"businessman\" than any other group on the planet, IMO. Yes, football is a business, and they are paid for their services. But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics - something I believe VERY FEW NFL players know a thing about. So does it piss me off that Brooks keeps calling himself top 5? Yes and no. In part it makes me sad, b/c he is insane to think that. At least with Horn an argument can be made. In any case, I think it demonstrates character. Tom Brady has a much stronger case for holding out for a huge contract, but you don\'t see the guy pounding on his chest do you? I just think it shows what Brooks is made of, and frankly, I\'m not impressed.

But you have a point, trying to get paid regardless of what you\'re really worth is something that a lot of people would do in the situation. That\'s not my point. I don\'t look at it from a standpoint of Aaron Brooks. I look at it from the standpoint of the Saints. I consider myself somewhat of an emotional shareholder in this stupid franchise. If I could buy stock in it, I would. I certainly dedicate far more of my time and emotion to the Saints then most of my other investments. Thus, I measure the team in many instances as if I am a part owner - as if I have some entitlement right. I\'m not saying that\'s the best way to do it, I\'m saying that\'s how I look at it. From the standpoint of the Saints, AB is a bad investment.

Let me use an analogy, if I may, that we have used a lot in the past: a car. AB is like a porsche fuel injection system. Under perfect conditions the system has the ability to seriously boost horsepower, efficiency, and general performance from the car\'s engine. For such a potentially powerful piece of equipment, I can understand why the team would be willing to pay a premium. However, 4 years later, the damn fuel system hasn\'t paid off. Hoses are constantly rupturing and having to be replaced. The intakes get clogged and cause misfires. In general, the car runs real well every so often, but normally it is generally in need of repair and maintenance.

To use the same analogy, the LBs may be flat tires and the OT may be a cracked radiator. If you really want this stupid car to go anywhere, you\'re gonna need to address the tires first. After that, you could move, but the radiator is really going to need to be replaced, or at least sealed and refilled with antifreeze. This fuel injection system may be a large overhaul, and may limit the car less than two flat tires, but it\'s still a problem and it still needs attention.

That\'s how I feel about AB. He\'s a large investment that hasn\'t paid off. It goes back to the same issue on which we always seem to disagree - when is enough enough? We disagreed on Haslett, Brooks, Loomis, Venturi, and others along that vein. You seem willing to keep giving second and third and fourth and fifth chances. I think a lot of coaches and players on this team have had more than enough opportunity to prove themselves and have failed. It\'s time to overhaul the damn car before the few good parts we have remaining all go bad too.

Hell, Joe wants to be paid like Marvion Harrison. All stats aside, Joe is out of his mind, but I damn sure don\'t blame him for trying.

Sure, I want to be paid Marvin Harrison money also. But just like me, JOE HORN IS NOT DEMANDING IT. In fact, Joe Horn has NEVER suggested that he should get paid like Harrison. A sports writer suggested that Joe Horn might possibly be thinking about the idea of considering maybe suggesting to the Saints that he may be in the same general league. If you construe that one little blurb in that article in which Horn never mentioned any WRs name (other than his own), then it\'s fair for me, under the same method of seriously over exagerrating a player\'s actual comments to construe the AB \"I\'m a great QB on an inconsistent team\" to mean that AB really said \"I\'m the best player to ever play for the New Orleans Saints, the rest of the team is worthless and they\'re all bums, and I want Peyton Manning money!\"

I think this year was the anomoly. Every year Brooks improved in the passing game. Even put up pro-bowl numbers in 2003.

2001- Progressed
2002- Progressed
2003 - Progressed
2004 - Regressed

Can you show me any reason to believe he progressed in any season other than 2003? Popular opinion (on this board, in the local media, in the national media, amongst analysts, and even supposedly amongst the coaching staff even at times LAST SEASON) was that he hasn\'t progressed very much at all, and not as expected.

What happend to the trend? I say it was mainly the offensive line. And Deuce being hurt made us the most predictable offense in the NFL.

This year you are pointing at the o-line and Deuce. Last year it was drops and the o-line. The year before it was drops and youth... My point is, you can always point at something else. But EVERY QB IN THE LEAGUE deals with these types of problems. There\'s always something. At some point you simply have to point at the player and ask, \"when are you going to produce?\"

I mean, Kurt Warner is less talented than AB. He had average WRs at best this season, and I think that\'s being generous. His o-line was terrible, and his RB isn\'t as talented as Deuce. Yet, Kurt No-Good Warner got PULLED FROM THE STARTING LINEUP with an 86.5 QB Rating. AB\'s was 79.5 this season.

Tim Rattay was horrible this year, he was 78.1. Michael Vick, who was generally considered as a minimal threat in the passing game - and a guy who has a LONG way to go before he\'s a good QB (not just good runner) - was 78.1. So Vick is nearly as efficient as AB, but with that one little addition - the most explosive player in the league.

I mean, in his 4th year as a starter AB had a 79.5 QB rating. Here are guys who were nominally worse who have lost, or are in danger of losing, their jobs: Joey Harrington, 77.5, Jeff Garcia 76.7, Drew Bledsoe 76.6, Vinny Testeverde 76.4.

Look, I\'m not saying that the o-line, WRs, RBs, etc. didn\'t affect AB this year. Of course they did. But I expect a 6th year Pro with 4.5 years experience as a starter and being paid top 10 money to be able to deal with those things better than AB. You seem to disagree. Fine. But it is hard for me to imagine that the average backup in the league right now couldn\'t come in and put up SIMILAR numbers for a FIFTH of the cost.

GumboBC · 02-19-2005, 10:32 PM

WhoDat --

But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics -

How can you even suggest such a thing? Given the fact that football organizations reguarly screw the players over every chance they get, if I were a player, I would be looking out for myself and let the team worry about themselves. These contracts aren\'t guaranteed. Teams will cut players if they get injuried, have one poor year, etc., ect,....

Am I suppose to feel sorry for Tom Benson or some other owner? If you don\'t like what Brooks did, you should really dislike Mike McKenzie?!! You remember his situation in Green Bay, right?

Spare me all this stuff about looking at the situation from an owner\'s point of view. Brooks\' salary hasn\'t hindered our cap number one bit. In fact, Benson needs to shell out a little more money. Brooks got what he could and whether you or anyone else thinks it\'s too much is irrelevant. I suppose you would have turned the money down if you had been in Brooks\' shoes. Yeah, right!!

Can you show me any reason to believe he progressed in any season other than 2003? Popular opinion (on this board, in the local media, in the national media, amongst analysts, and even supposedly amongst the coaching staff even at times LAST SEASON) was that he hasn\'t progressed very much at all, and not as expected.

I\'m really not interested in what the popular opinion here is. I love it when someone points to an article that agrees with their opinion and somehow that\'s suppose to make them right. Boy, if that\'s the name of the game, I could have ended this arguement long ago. Let\'s keep on track and not get sidel-tracked by some of this stuff.

The question was has Brooks progressed? You\'re a big fan of passer rating. Right?

2001 - 76.4
2002 - 80.1
2003 - 88.8

I call that progression. What do you call it? Yeah, Brooks had ONE bad year in fumbles lost. This year his turnovers were less than Tom Brady who won the super bowl. And even with the fumbles in 2003, his turnovers were less than Jake Delhomme who went to the superbowl

P.S. --

You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. Sure, you might get the Brooks\' basing crew to agree with you. But, none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you. They don\'t agree with me either. They can see both sides. So can I. I just think I\'m right and you think you\'re right.

[Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC]

saintswhodi · 02-19-2005, 10:35 PM

Damn Who, well done. :thumbsup:

Danno · 02-20-2005, 09:15 AM

Damn Who, well done. :thumbsup:

Yes, his analysis of the NFC south was very well done.
No wait, that was another thread, no wait again, it IS this thread.
Or is this an AB thread, No wait, thats EVERY thread.

Man I could post a topic \"Should we replace John Carney?\"
and by the 3rd reply Gumbo, Whodat and the rest of the AB obsessed posters will be in yet another full blown AB arguement bringing up the EXACT same arguements.

Geeez. I hope they cut him outright just so we can start talking about something else, anything else. I\'m starting to become sick of being a Saints fan.

WhoDat · 02-20-2005, 10:06 AM

Spare me all this stuff about looking at the situation from an owner\'s point of view. Brooks\' salary hasn\'t hindered our cap number one bit. In fact, Benson needs to shell out a little more money. Brooks got what he could and whether you or anyone else thinks it\'s too much is irrelevant.

I don\'t get it Billy. Do you just get angry and not think? Seriously. By this exact logic, then you shouldn\'t give a rats a$$ whether Joe Horn get Marvin Harrison money, right? You\'re not looking at it from the owner\'s point of view huh? So we could pay Brooks $100 million and it would be OK? Jonathan Sullivan\'s contract doesn\'t bother you?

You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling.

I seriously don\'t get it. Do you read my posts? I am NOT suggesting that AB be cut. I have clearly and repeatedly said that AB is currently our best option. Because I think the Saints should find a replacement doesn\'t mean I think he should be thrown out on the street tomorrow. I think the Saints need to find a few stud LBs too - does that mean I favor dumping Buckwoldt and Watson ASAP? That\'s just ridiculous. You\'re polarizing again, and I don\'t know if you do it in an attempt to discredit, b/c you don\'t know how to ague any other way, or simply because you cannot comprehend my posts. Look at what I write Bill. Go back and find a post, just one, where I said AB should be cut flat out in the last.... how long, two year? Three? Go ahead.

This is why people jump on you about Brooks, but leave JKool alone. He can say read someone say, \"We need to find a replacement for Brooks\" and respond with, \"Yes, long-term it\'s something that has to be addressed, but I wouldn\'t get rid of him unless we\'re getting some other proven player, and defense is a bigger concern to me right now.\" You respond to the the same comment with, \"Sure! Why don\'t we just go hire some waterboy!?! THat\'s all we need right? AB is the best QB the Saints have ever had and if you can\'t see that you have an agenda!!!!\" Do me a favor - try not to polarize - you\'ll get farther with people.

GumboBC · 02-20-2005, 10:24 AM

WhoDat --

I\'m not attacking you or anything. But, you seem to only look at one side of an issue. You have some good points here and there, but you totally overlook the other side of the arguement...

What about the players side of the arguement? You never even talked about that!!

NFL owners and GMs are looking out for themselves. They really don\'t have the players best interest in mind. The only reason they give a player more money is because the HAVE to!!

Players sign contracts that a team will not honor if a player isn\'t performing the way they think he should. They will cut that player in a New York second!! They don\'t give a damn about honoring that contract.

It\'s \"what have you done for me lately.\"

What\'s fair about that? The player and the team agrees to a contract and the TEAM does NOT honor it. Is that fair, WhoDat? Is that ethical?

So, when a player thinks he isn\'t getting paid enough and holds out - you feel sorry for the TEAM?

Like I said, spare me \"looking at it from a TEAM standpoint.\"

I really don\'t get you, WhoDat. You\'re a bright guy. But, you seem to have a problem looking at the BIG PICTURE.

If it pisses you off so much that a player won\'t honor his contract .. then .. why don\'t you get just as pissed off when the TEAM doesn\'t honor a contact?

Let me spell it out:

1. Players don\'t honor their contracts sometimes.
2. Teams don\'t honor their contracts sometimes.

Who\'s right? Who\'s wrong?

It\'s pretty simple actually. A player must look out for his best interest and the team must look out for their best interest.

If a player feels like he is worth more money and hold out ... the TEAM doesn\'t have to sign him. And if they do, they must feel like he\'s worth it.

And if the team doesn\'t honor a so-called \"guaranteed\" contract, they must feel like he doesn\'t deserve it.

That, WhoDat, is the OTHER SIDE that you NEVER mentioned.

[Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC]

mutineer10 · 02-20-2005, 11:07 AM

Man I could post a topic \"Should we replace John Carney?\"

Actually, now that you mention it, I wouldn\'t be against that.

Guy\'s getting old, leg strength is getting questionable, and he\'s famously botched a clutch kick or two. I dunno how much he\'s costing us, but it might be about time to look toward some fresh blood at kicker. Then again, NFL kickers (especially if expected to kick on turf in a dome) are a dime a dozen, so any journeyman would probably do.

Umm ... am I a \"Carney Hater\" now???

kevinn1972 · 02-20-2005, 11:21 AM

Haven\'t been on the board in a while. Nice to see some things never change.

Brooks has every right to try and get his money. There is a business aspect to the game that players would be foolish not to address. The window of opportunity for them is very small and they have to take advantage of these opportunities whenever they can. A byproduct of that is negative reaction when that player handles the situation poorly. I think it can be said very fairly that AB sucks when it comes to public relations. Also, when a player denegrates his team in a public forum, such as an interview for a newspaper, and puts himself on a pedestal above his team, to think that people won\'t react negatively to that is crazy.

Now, I\'ve been a Saints fan all of my life. I have to say that Dave friggin Wilson handled himself better with his teammates and the public than AB has. The guy sucks at it!! And if a guy is gonna say that he\'s a top 5 qb in this league, and then doesn\'t back it up, you better damn well expect people are gonna slam him. AB deserves all the criticism he gets. While he isn\'t the only issue that needs to be addressed on this team, HE IS THE QUARTERBACK!!!!!! You want the glory of playing in this league, you better learn to accept the responsibility. THAT is why people seem to like Delhomme so much better. Because when they lose he doesn\'t shirk the responsiblity. He\'s the leader of that team so no matter what\'s fair or unfair, he\'d better be prepared to handle the tough questions and criticism. And he then does just that with self-deprecation and an eagerness to correct the problems.

As for teams not honoring contracts, that\'s why players negotiate guaranteed portions of contracts and signing bonuses. They get a certain amount of money regardless of their performance. But the rest of the money, they had better perform as advertised or their EMPLOYER has the right to tell them to go home.

I hope that AB comes out next year and lights the league up. If he does so, then I think that he will have earned the respect of everyone that bashes him on this board. But he had better start being a leader first, lead by example, demand accountability from himself. The rest of the team will see that, and I guarantee you it will have a domino effect. But, if you look at the entire whole player that is AB, the past results are unacceptable, and if he can\'t or won\'t do what is necessary to be a leader on this team, then I say we start looking in another direction. You\'ve got to remember, every offensive play, 10 guys look directly at the QB. No question he has to lead. If he\'s gonna be talking himself up he better be ready to !@#$ or get off the pot!!

WhoDat · 02-20-2005, 11:24 AM

What about the players side of the arguement? You never even talked about that!!

NFL owners and GMs are looking out for themselves. They really don\'t have the players best interest in mind. The only reason they give a player more money is because the HAVE to!!

What?!?! Seriously?!?! So you\'re OK with the Saints paying Jonathan Sullivan 1st round money while he sits in the press booth eating, b/c hey, from the player\'s point-of-view he got what he wanted????? That is maybe the worst argument I\'ve ever seen. If that\'s really how you feel and what you believe, this is pointless. I\'ve thought there was hope, maybe I need to become a Billy Moonshiner too.

Like I said, spare me \"looking at it from a TEAM standpoint.\"

I really don\'t get you, WhoDat. You\'re a bright guy. But, you seem to have a problem looking at the BIG PICTURE.

You\'re right Billy, the team is irrelevant, just so long as AB is taken care of. True colors seem to be shining through.

That, WhoDat, is the OTHER SIDE that you NEVER mentioned.

You\'re damn right about that.

You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. Sure, you might get the Brooks\' basing crew to agree with you. But, none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you.

Just thought I would disprove this point - not that I think it will sink in.

I didn\'t find quotes from Whoodi, Gator, or BMG - I think it\'s well established that they\'re on my side of the fence. But here are posters I found quotes from in the LAST FEW DAYS that are in line with exactly what I\'ve said in THIS thread.

Papz, ChrisRX, JoeSam, SubGuy, SFIAH, Saintfan (that\'s right - even your biggest ally), JKool, TayTay, Saints_LB, Fan Frenzy, lKelly67, Scotty, Danno, Spkb25, and Baronm.

Again, these are quotes just from the LAST FEW DAYS and if you would like, I\'ll be happy to show you my points from THIS THREAD alone that parallel what each poster has said in the quote.

Papz

Talent, ability, blah blah and all that good stuff, but he needs to concentrate better. He has too many mental lapses and I think with Sheppard simplifying the offense, he should improve. I mean he puts up good numbers every year, just cut down on stupid mistakes.

ChrisRX

i\'m not a brooks basher, but i do believe that proof is in the pudding, and i believe i speak on behalf of the entire saint nation when i ask when is enough enough? the last 3 season all i\'ve heard from the media, coaches, and even this board is, \'well, once he finds his consistency he\'ll be great and lead us to the promised land\' (that sort of garbage) and yet no playoffs.... i\'m not saying the king of new orleans (so he thinks) is all to blame, but facts are facts and even though he puts up great numbers (can\'t debate ya there), he fails miserably as the leader this team needs to catapult them to the top of the NFC south

gumbo i whole heartedly agree that football is a team game and that all the individual parts should work in concert to produce the best results....when one part or more than one part does not do their job, then the team as a whole suffers, however i do believe that brooks could VASTLY improve his game... yes, he has the stats, but he does not have the consistency.... i know all about the o-line problems, but i\'ve been (as we all have) that brooks, even with great blocking, rarely puts the ball in a spot that is condusive to an easy catch, with his ball either sailing on him or reaching the receiver at their feet.... i\'m just saying i\'m really tired of hoping that this year will be the year for this kid, but i really think that the aaron brooks project should be aborted.... he showed tremendous promise in 2000, but turned up to be a disappointment as a team leader, which is very important considering the position he plays...

JoeSam

If AB is as great as he says he is, why is it that our offense cannot maintain a sustained drive to keep our porous defense off the field? Does this mean it\'s the other 10 players fault?

Right now he is no better than average. Yes he has potential, just as almost all the rest of the team does but you don\'t hear anyone else blowing their own horn do you? The only one that does has been to the Pro Bowl quite often lately. There\'s no doubt that AB has talent as I\'ve said but this guy is just to immature. He\'s had time to grow up but he just hasn\'t. He needs to learn to lead by example and not say a word. My Dad always told me\"Never tell anyone what you can do, go out and show them.\" I have lived by that rule all my life.

SubGuy

BC.....also, you comment on the fact that there aren\'t as many bad defense forums or any other than Brooks. One question, how can so many be so wrong and yet you be right. The number of Brooks posts is a tribute to the fact that he is the big concern. You are Brooks blind........

SFIAH

No. That\'s Brooks fault. Because Brooks isn\'t as great as he says he is. And Brooks is compounding the problem by running his yap.

Brooks isn\'t as good as he says he is. He should take a cue from the guys who are in fact better than he is: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. They go do it on the field, and then are self deprecating to a fault.

Brooks certainly could learn something from them.

Bring someone else in? Fine.

Have some competition at the QB position? Fine.

Improve the QB slot all around? Fine.

Ship Brooks off and get someone else cold? No. That\'s too far. At least right now.

Saintfan

I\'m not trying to pull your chain here, but those of us that typically defend Brooks are regularly accused of failing to find fault in him. This, to a man, isn\'t the case. We simply see other issues that affect his performance, and when we bring ANY of \'em up we\'re bashed into oblivion. We all see where Brooks could improve...some of us see the same \"potential to improve\" team-wide.

I understand why folks are on Brooks case, I just think fixing the defense should be our #1 priority. I do agree tho that we should get somebody in here to push Brooks. We\'re on common ground there for sure.

JKool

We already agree on this. We all agree that Brooks makes bad choices and makes bad plays - NO ONE DISAGREES WITH THAT.

I DO AGREE THAT BROOKS IS A PROBLEM. HE MAKES DUMB MISTAKES AND HE DOES HURT THE TEAM. EVERYONE AGREES WITH THAT.

Everyone agrees that Brooks is a problem. What they disagree on is how big a problem he is. Does that not make sense?

I would be cool with your view on this IF I WAS A BROOKS SUPPORTER, but I am NOT.

TayTay

Gumbo, I will give you that having a weak O-Line doesn\'t help, however, even with a good line to protect Brooks still has no accuracy.

Thanks for the extra info whodi. I\'m glad that other people also see that the O-Line doesn\'t matter if the QB is a BUM

Saints_LB

I understand why folks are on Brooks case, I just think fixing the defense should be our #1 priority. I do agree tho that we should get somebody in here to push Brooks. We\'re on common ground there for sure...Some of us think that the QB position should merit some attention. What we\'ve gotten, however, is a QB who needs to be coddled to remain satisfied, and a coaching staff that has pretty much been willing to do that. So our frustration level is peaking, because now we are looking at going into our fifth year without having our desires attended to. Surely you can see how that would be frustrating for those who have wanted to see what someone else could do at that position. On top of that, we have seen people who we thought might have been able to provide us with relief in that area go off to other teams and have success there. That even adds to our frustration.

Fan Frenzy

I don\'t believe Aaron Brooks will ever overcome the game-breaking mistakes. I don\'t believe Aaron Brooks will ever play consistently great. What I do believe is that we are seeing, year in and year out, the way Brooks\' play will always be. Some games, he will play like an all-pro and others he will lose for us single-handedly.

For me, that is what frustates me so much when I hear the argument \"there\'s no one out there who is proven to be better so we keep him\". I just don\'t see that as very real world.

lKelly67

my biggest beef about him no matter where you grade him is that we are not getting $6million worth of performance. success in the cap world is who gets the most total bang for the buck. $6mil is upper echelon pay. with the erratic play i can only peg brooks total play at average or best.

Scotty

In what language can I tell you that I understand that AB hurts our team with his play sometimes (or even often)?

Danno

I think the main changes are still to come. Here are some possibilities that I think would qualify...
1. Replace/trade Aaron Brooks
2. Cut Jonathan Sullivan and move on.
3. Replace Tebuckey Jones and Jay Belamy.
4. Sign a stud FA LB, or two.
5. Trade Howard.

Spkb25

at the beginning of the season i was huge brooks supporter. now im not ready to see him leave yet this year. i dont think this year we can get anyone better. he ahs the ability to be a very good qb. but he has to mature and lead this team. i never knew how much of a lack of a leader he was until his comments right before the last game. if he cant change that then eventually he has to go.

baronm

what seperates farve from brooks-they both have great athletism, both can run, both have a good arm..it\'s leadership and that is my biggest complaint about brooks is that he is not a leader..partly becasue he is unacountable for his actions and partly because he is a self-centered player..

team wins and stats do not neccessarily go hand in hand

Now, can you please show me one guy that agrees with your \"spare me \'looking at it from a TEAM standpoint\'\" sentiment, just so long as the player is taken care of. Just ONE.

02-19-2005, 05:43 PM	#31
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	NFC South Alright, it was bound to happen, so I\'ll do it: Thanks for the extra info whodi. I\'m glad that other people also see that the O-Line doesn\'t matter if the QB is a BUM What? At the very least the OLine still has to block for the running game, don\'t they?

02-19-2005, 09:36 PM	#32
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	NFC South Why do you hold it against Brooks that he held out? And said he was one of the top QBs in the NFL to get the big money. That\'s exactly what I would have done. Football is a business, also. On any job, you get what you can get and you do whatever you have to to get it. Billy - I\'m going to have to take issue with a couple of things you\'ve said. Let\'s try to keep this civil. I disagree, but I\'m not attacking you... First, football players have probably done more to bastardize the term \"businessman\" than any other group on the planet, IMO. Yes, football is a business, and they are paid for their services. But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics - something I believe VERY FEW NFL players know a thing about. So does it piss me off that Brooks keeps calling himself top 5? Yes and no. In part it makes me sad, b/c he is insane to think that. At least with Horn an argument can be made. In any case, I think it demonstrates character. Tom Brady has a much stronger case for holding out for a huge contract, but you don\'t see the guy pounding on his chest do you? I just think it shows what Brooks is made of, and frankly, I\'m not impressed. But you have a point, trying to get paid regardless of what you\'re really worth is something that a lot of people would do in the situation. That\'s not my point. I don\'t look at it from a standpoint of Aaron Brooks. I look at it from the standpoint of the Saints. I consider myself somewhat of an emotional shareholder in this stupid franchise. If I could buy stock in it, I would. I certainly dedicate far more of my time and emotion to the Saints then most of my other investments. Thus, I measure the team in many instances as if I am a part owner - as if I have some entitlement right. I\'m not saying that\'s the best way to do it, I\'m saying that\'s how I look at it. From the standpoint of the Saints, AB is a bad investment. Let me use an analogy, if I may, that we have used a lot in the past: a car. AB is like a porsche fuel injection system. Under perfect conditions the system has the ability to seriously boost horsepower, efficiency, and general performance from the car\'s engine. For such a potentially powerful piece of equipment, I can understand why the team would be willing to pay a premium. However, 4 years later, the damn fuel system hasn\'t paid off. Hoses are constantly rupturing and having to be replaced. The intakes get clogged and cause misfires. In general, the car runs real well every so often, but normally it is generally in need of repair and maintenance. To use the same analogy, the LBs may be flat tires and the OT may be a cracked radiator. If you really want this stupid car to go anywhere, you\'re gonna need to address the tires first. After that, you could move, but the radiator is really going to need to be replaced, or at least sealed and refilled with antifreeze. This fuel injection system may be a large overhaul, and may limit the car less than two flat tires, but it\'s still a problem and it still needs attention. That\'s how I feel about AB. He\'s a large investment that hasn\'t paid off. It goes back to the same issue on which we always seem to disagree - when is enough enough? We disagreed on Haslett, Brooks, Loomis, Venturi, and others along that vein. You seem willing to keep giving second and third and fourth and fifth chances. I think a lot of coaches and players on this team have had more than enough opportunity to prove themselves and have failed. It\'s time to overhaul the damn car before the few good parts we have remaining all go bad too. Hell, Joe wants to be paid like Marvion Harrison. All stats aside, Joe is out of his mind, but I damn sure don\'t blame him for trying. Sure, I want to be paid Marvin Harrison money also. But just like me, JOE HORN IS NOT DEMANDING IT. In fact, Joe Horn has NEVER suggested that he should get paid like Harrison. A sports writer suggested that Joe Horn might possibly be thinking about the idea of considering maybe suggesting to the Saints that he may be in the same general league. If you construe that one little blurb in that article in which Horn never mentioned any WRs name (other than his own), then it\'s fair for me, under the same method of seriously over exagerrating a player\'s actual comments to construe the AB \"I\'m a great QB on an inconsistent team\" to mean that AB really said \"I\'m the best player to ever play for the New Orleans Saints, the rest of the team is worthless and they\'re all bums, and I want Peyton Manning money!\" I think this year was the anomoly. Every year Brooks improved in the passing game. Even put up pro-bowl numbers in 2003. 2001- Progressed 2002- Progressed 2003 - Progressed 2004 - Regressed Can you show me any reason to believe he progressed in any season other than 2003? Popular opinion (on this board, in the local media, in the national media, amongst analysts, and even supposedly amongst the coaching staff even at times LAST SEASON) was that he hasn\'t progressed very much at all, and not as expected. What happend to the trend? I say it was mainly the offensive line. And Deuce being hurt made us the most predictable offense in the NFL. This year you are pointing at the o-line and Deuce. Last year it was drops and the o-line. The year before it was drops and youth... My point is, you can always point at something else. But EVERY QB IN THE LEAGUE deals with these types of problems. There\'s always something. At some point you simply have to point at the player and ask, \"when are you going to produce?\" I mean, Kurt Warner is less talented than AB. He had average WRs at best this season, and I think that\'s being generous. His o-line was terrible, and his RB isn\'t as talented as Deuce. Yet, Kurt No-Good Warner got PULLED FROM THE STARTING LINEUP with an 86.5 QB Rating. AB\'s was 79.5 this season. Tim Rattay was horrible this year, he was 78.1. Michael Vick, who was generally considered as a minimal threat in the passing game - and a guy who has a LONG way to go before he\'s a good QB (not just good runner) - was 78.1. So Vick is nearly as efficient as AB, but with that one little addition - the most explosive player in the league. I mean, in his 4th year as a starter AB had a 79.5 QB rating. Here are guys who were nominally worse who have lost, or are in danger of losing, their jobs: Joey Harrington, 77.5, Jeff Garcia 76.7, Drew Bledsoe 76.6, Vinny Testeverde 76.4. Look, I\'m not saying that the o-line, WRs, RBs, etc. didn\'t affect AB this year. Of course they did. But I expect a 6th year Pro with 4.5 years experience as a starter and being paid top 10 money to be able to deal with those things better than AB. You seem to disagree. Fine. But it is hard for me to imagine that the average backup in the league right now couldn\'t come in and put up SIMILAR numbers for a FIFTH of the cost.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

02-19-2005, 10:32 PM	#33
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	NFC South WhoDat -- But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics - How can you even suggest such a thing? Given the fact that football organizations reguarly screw the players over every chance they get, if I were a player, I would be looking out for myself and let the team worry about themselves. These contracts aren\'t guaranteed. Teams will cut players if they get injuried, have one poor year, etc., ect,.... Am I suppose to feel sorry for Tom Benson or some other owner? If you don\'t like what Brooks did, you should really dislike Mike McKenzie?!! You remember his situation in Green Bay, right? Spare me all this stuff about looking at the situation from an owner\'s point of view. Brooks\' salary hasn\'t hindered our cap number one bit. In fact, Benson needs to shell out a little more money. Brooks got what he could and whether you or anyone else thinks it\'s too much is irrelevant. I suppose you would have turned the money down if you had been in Brooks\' shoes. Yeah, right!! Can you show me any reason to believe he progressed in any season other than 2003? Popular opinion (on this board, in the local media, in the national media, amongst analysts, and even supposedly amongst the coaching staff even at times LAST SEASON) was that he hasn\'t progressed very much at all, and not as expected. I\'m really not interested in what the popular opinion here is. I love it when someone points to an article that agrees with their opinion and somehow that\'s suppose to make them right. Boy, if that\'s the name of the game, I could have ended this arguement long ago. Let\'s keep on track and not get sidel-tracked by some of this stuff. The question was has Brooks progressed? You\'re a big fan of passer rating. Right? 2001 - 76.4 2002 - 80.1 2003 - 88.8 I call that progression. What do you call it? Yeah, Brooks had ONE bad year in fumbles lost. This year his turnovers were less than Tom Brady who won the super bowl. And even with the fumbles in 2003, his turnovers were less than Jake Delhomme who went to the superbowl P.S. -- You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. Sure, you might get the Brooks\' basing crew to agree with you. But, none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you. They don\'t agree with me either. They can see both sides. So can I. I just think I\'m right and you think you\'re right. [Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-19-2005, 10:35 PM	#34
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	NFC South Damn Who, well done. :thumbsup:

02-20-2005, 09:15 AM	#35
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	NFC South Damn Who, well done. :thumbsup: Yes, his analysis of the NFC south was very well done. No wait, that was another thread, no wait again, it IS this thread. Or is this an AB thread, No wait, thats EVERY thread. Man I could post a topic \"Should we replace John Carney?\" and by the 3rd reply Gumbo, Whodat and the rest of the AB obsessed posters will be in yet another full blown AB arguement bringing up the EXACT same arguements. Geeez. I hope they cut him outright just so we can start talking about something else, anything else. I\'m starting to become sick of being a Saints fan.

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02-20-2005, 10:06 AM	#36
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	NFC South Spare me all this stuff about looking at the situation from an owner\'s point of view. Brooks\' salary hasn\'t hindered our cap number one bit. In fact, Benson needs to shell out a little more money. Brooks got what he could and whether you or anyone else thinks it\'s too much is irrelevant. I don\'t get it Billy. Do you just get angry and not think? Seriously. By this exact logic, then you shouldn\'t give a rats a$$ whether Joe Horn get Marvin Harrison money, right? You\'re not looking at it from the owner\'s point of view huh? So we could pay Brooks $100 million and it would be OK? Jonathan Sullivan\'s contract doesn\'t bother you? You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. I seriously don\'t get it. Do you read my posts? I am NOT suggesting that AB be cut. I have clearly and repeatedly said that AB is currently our best option. Because I think the Saints should find a replacement doesn\'t mean I think he should be thrown out on the street tomorrow. I think the Saints need to find a few stud LBs too - does that mean I favor dumping Buckwoldt and Watson ASAP? That\'s just ridiculous. You\'re polarizing again, and I don\'t know if you do it in an attempt to discredit, b/c you don\'t know how to ague any other way, or simply because you cannot comprehend my posts. Look at what I write Bill. Go back and find a post, just one, where I said AB should be cut flat out in the last.... how long, two year? Three? Go ahead. This is why people jump on you about Brooks, but leave JKool alone. He can say read someone say, \"We need to find a replacement for Brooks\" and respond with, \"Yes, long-term it\'s something that has to be addressed, but I wouldn\'t get rid of him unless we\'re getting some other proven player, and defense is a bigger concern to me right now.\" You respond to the the same comment with, \"Sure! Why don\'t we just go hire some waterboy!?! THat\'s all we need right? AB is the best QB the Saints have ever had and if you can\'t see that you have an agenda!!!!\" Do me a favor - try not to polarize - you\'ll get farther with people.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

02-20-2005, 10:24 AM	#37
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	NFC South WhoDat -- I\'m not attacking you or anything. But, you seem to only look at one side of an issue. You have some good points here and there, but you totally overlook the other side of the arguement... What about the players side of the arguement? You never even talked about that!! NFL owners and GMs are looking out for themselves. They really don\'t have the players best interest in mind. The only reason they give a player more money is because the HAVE to!! Players sign contracts that a team will not honor if a player isn\'t performing the way they think he should. They will cut that player in a New York second!! They don\'t give a damn about honoring that contract. It\'s \"what have you done for me lately.\" What\'s fair about that? The player and the team agrees to a contract and the TEAM does NOT honor it. Is that fair, WhoDat? Is that ethical? So, when a player thinks he isn\'t getting paid enough and holds out - you feel sorry for the TEAM? Like I said, spare me \"looking at it from a TEAM standpoint.\" I really don\'t get you, WhoDat. You\'re a bright guy. But, you seem to have a problem looking at the BIG PICTURE. If it pisses you off so much that a player won\'t honor his contract .. then .. why don\'t you get just as pissed off when the TEAM doesn\'t honor a contact? Let me spell it out: 1. Players don\'t honor their contracts sometimes. 2. Teams don\'t honor their contracts sometimes. Who\'s right? Who\'s wrong? It\'s pretty simple actually. A player must look out for his best interest and the team must look out for their best interest. If a player feels like he is worth more money and hold out ... the TEAM doesn\'t have to sign him. And if they do, they must feel like he\'s worth it. And if the team doesn\'t honor a so-called \"guaranteed\" contract, they must feel like he doesn\'t deserve it. That, WhoDat, is the OTHER SIDE that you NEVER mentioned. [Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-20-2005, 11:07 AM	#38
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	NFC South Man I could post a topic \"Should we replace John Carney?\" Actually, now that you mention it, I wouldn\'t be against that. Guy\'s getting old, leg strength is getting questionable, and he\'s famously botched a clutch kick or two. I dunno how much he\'s costing us, but it might be about time to look toward some fresh blood at kicker. Then again, NFL kickers (especially if expected to kick on turf in a dome) are a dime a dozen, so any journeyman would probably do. Umm ... am I a \"Carney Hater\" now???

02-20-2005, 11:21 AM	#39
kevinn1972 Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 71	NFC South Haven\'t been on the board in a while. Nice to see some things never change. Brooks has every right to try and get his money. There is a business aspect to the game that players would be foolish not to address. The window of opportunity for them is very small and they have to take advantage of these opportunities whenever they can. A byproduct of that is negative reaction when that player handles the situation poorly. I think it can be said very fairly that AB sucks when it comes to public relations. Also, when a player denegrates his team in a public forum, such as an interview for a newspaper, and puts himself on a pedestal above his team, to think that people won\'t react negatively to that is crazy. Now, I\'ve been a Saints fan all of my life. I have to say that Dave friggin Wilson handled himself better with his teammates and the public than AB has. The guy sucks at it!! And if a guy is gonna say that he\'s a top 5 qb in this league, and then doesn\'t back it up, you better damn well expect people are gonna slam him. AB deserves all the criticism he gets. While he isn\'t the only issue that needs to be addressed on this team, HE IS THE QUARTERBACK!!!!!! You want the glory of playing in this league, you better learn to accept the responsibility. THAT is why people seem to like Delhomme so much better. Because when they lose he doesn\'t shirk the responsiblity. He\'s the leader of that team so no matter what\'s fair or unfair, he\'d better be prepared to handle the tough questions and criticism. And he then does just that with self-deprecation and an eagerness to correct the problems. As for teams not honoring contracts, that\'s why players negotiate guaranteed portions of contracts and signing bonuses. They get a certain amount of money regardless of their performance. But the rest of the money, they had better perform as advertised or their EMPLOYER has the right to tell them to go home. I hope that AB comes out next year and lights the league up. If he does so, then I think that he will have earned the respect of everyone that bashes him on this board. But he had better start being a leader first, lead by example, demand accountability from himself. The rest of the team will see that, and I guarantee you it will have a domino effect. But, if you look at the entire whole player that is AB, the past results are unacceptable, and if he can\'t or won\'t do what is necessary to be a leader on this team, then I say we start looking in another direction. You\'ve got to remember, every offensive play, 10 guys look directly at the QB. No question he has to lead. If he\'s gonna be talking himself up he better be ready to !@#$ or get off the pot!!
	May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your crotch, and your arms be too short to scratch.

02-20-2005, 11:24 AM	#40
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	NFC South What about the players side of the arguement? You never even talked about that!! NFL owners and GMs are looking out for themselves. They really don\'t have the players best interest in mind. The only reason they give a player more money is because the HAVE to!! What?!?! Seriously?!?! So you\'re OK with the Saints paying Jonathan Sullivan 1st round money while he sits in the press booth eating, b/c hey, from the player\'s point-of-view he got what he wanted????? That is maybe the worst argument I\'ve ever seen. If that\'s really how you feel and what you believe, this is pointless. I\'ve thought there was hope, maybe I need to become a Billy Moonshiner too. Like I said, spare me \"looking at it from a TEAM standpoint.\" I really don\'t get you, WhoDat. You\'re a bright guy. But, you seem to have a problem looking at the BIG PICTURE. You\'re right Billy, the team is irrelevant, just so long as AB is taken care of. True colors seem to be shining through. That, WhoDat, is the OTHER SIDE that you NEVER mentioned. You\'re damn right about that. You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. Sure, you might get the Brooks\' basing crew to agree with you. But, none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you. Just thought I would disprove this point - not that I think it will sink in. I didn\'t find quotes from Whoodi, Gator, or BMG - I think it\'s well established that they\'re on my side of the fence. But here are posters I found quotes from in the LAST FEW DAYS that are in line with exactly what I\'ve said in THIS thread. Papz, ChrisRX, JoeSam, SubGuy, SFIAH, Saintfan (that\'s right - even your biggest ally), JKool, TayTay, Saints_LB, Fan Frenzy, lKelly67, Scotty, Danno, Spkb25, and Baronm. Again, these are quotes just from the LAST FEW DAYS and if you would like, I\'ll be happy to show you my points from THIS THREAD alone that parallel what each poster has said in the quote. Papz Talent, ability, blah blah and all that good stuff, but he needs to concentrate better. He has too many mental lapses and I think with Sheppard simplifying the offense, he should improve. I mean he puts up good numbers every year, just cut down on stupid mistakes. ChrisRX i\'m not a brooks basher, but i do believe that proof is in the pudding, and i believe i speak on behalf of the entire saint nation when i ask when is enough enough? the last 3 season all i\'ve heard from the media, coaches, and even this board is, \'well, once he finds his consistency he\'ll be great and lead us to the promised land\' (that sort of garbage) and yet no playoffs.... i\'m not saying the king of new orleans (so he thinks) is all to blame, but facts are facts and even though he puts up great numbers (can\'t debate ya there), he fails miserably as the leader this team needs to catapult them to the top of the NFC south gumbo i whole heartedly agree that football is a team game and that all the individual parts should work in concert to produce the best results....when one part or more than one part does not do their job, then the team as a whole suffers, however i do believe that brooks could VASTLY improve his game... yes, he has the stats, but he does not have the consistency.... i know all about the o-line problems, but i\'ve been (as we all have) that brooks, even with great blocking, rarely puts the ball in a spot that is condusive to an easy catch, with his ball either sailing on him or reaching the receiver at their feet.... i\'m just saying i\'m really tired of hoping that this year will be the year for this kid, but i really think that the aaron brooks project should be aborted.... he showed tremendous promise in 2000, but turned up to be a disappointment as a team leader, which is very important considering the position he plays... JoeSam If AB is as great as he says he is, why is it that our offense cannot maintain a sustained drive to keep our porous defense off the field? Does this mean it\'s the other 10 players fault? Right now he is no better than average. Yes he has potential, just as almost all the rest of the team does but you don\'t hear anyone else blowing their own horn do you? The only one that does has been to the Pro Bowl quite often lately. There\'s no doubt that AB has talent as I\'ve said but this guy is just to immature. He\'s had time to grow up but he just hasn\'t. He needs to learn to lead by example and not say a word. My Dad always told me\"Never tell anyone what you can do, go out and show them.\" I have lived by that rule all my life. SubGuy BC.....also, you comment on the fact that there aren\'t as many bad defense forums or any other than Brooks. One question, how can so many be so wrong and yet you be right. The number of Brooks posts is a tribute to the fact that he is the big concern. You are Brooks blind........ SFIAH No. That\'s Brooks fault. Because Brooks isn\'t as great as he says he is. And Brooks is compounding the problem by running his yap. Brooks isn\'t as good as he says he is. He should take a cue from the guys who are in fact better than he is: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. They go do it on the field, and then are self deprecating to a fault. Brooks certainly could learn something from them. Bring someone else in? Fine. Have some competition at the QB position? Fine. Improve the QB slot all around? Fine. Ship Brooks off and get someone else cold? No. That\'s too far. At least right now. Saintfan I\'m not trying to pull your chain here, but those of us that typically defend Brooks are regularly accused of failing to find fault in him. This, to a man, isn\'t the case. We simply see other issues that affect his performance, and when we bring ANY of \'em up we\'re bashed into oblivion. We all see where Brooks could improve...some of us see the same \"potential to improve\" team-wide. I understand why folks are on Brooks case, I just think fixing the defense should be our #1 priority. I do agree tho that we should get somebody in here to push Brooks. We\'re on common ground there for sure. JKool We already agree on this. We all agree that Brooks makes bad choices and makes bad plays - NO ONE DISAGREES WITH THAT. I DO AGREE THAT BROOKS IS A PROBLEM. HE MAKES DUMB MISTAKES AND HE DOES HURT THE TEAM. EVERYONE AGREES WITH THAT. Everyone agrees that Brooks is a problem. What they disagree on is how big a problem he is. Does that not make sense? I would be cool with your view on this IF I WAS A BROOKS SUPPORTER, but I am NOT. TayTay Gumbo, I will give you that having a weak O-Line doesn\'t help, however, even with a good line to protect Brooks still has no accuracy. Thanks for the extra info whodi. I\'m glad that other people also see that the O-Line doesn\'t matter if the QB is a BUM Saints_LB I understand why folks are on Brooks case, I just think fixing the defense should be our #1 priority. I do agree tho that we should get somebody in here to push Brooks. We\'re on common ground there for sure...Some of us think that the QB position should merit some attention. What we\'ve gotten, however, is a QB who needs to be coddled to remain satisfied, and a coaching staff that has pretty much been willing to do that. So our frustration level is peaking, because now we are looking at going into our fifth year without having our desires attended to. Surely you can see how that would be frustrating for those who have wanted to see what someone else could do at that position. On top of that, we have seen people who we thought might have been able to provide us with relief in that area go off to other teams and have success there. That even adds to our frustration. Fan Frenzy I don\'t believe Aaron Brooks will ever overcome the game-breaking mistakes. I don\'t believe Aaron Brooks will ever play consistently great. What I do believe is that we are seeing, year in and year out, the way Brooks\' play will always be. Some games, he will play like an all-pro and others he will lose for us single-handedly. For me, that is what frustates me so much when I hear the argument \"there\'s no one out there who is proven to be better so we keep him\". I just don\'t see that as very real world. lKelly67 my biggest beef about him no matter where you grade him is that we are not getting $6million worth of performance. success in the cap world is who gets the most total bang for the buck. $6mil is upper echelon pay. with the erratic play i can only peg brooks total play at average or best. Scotty In what language can I tell you that I understand that AB hurts our team with his play sometimes (or even often)? Danno I think the main changes are still to come. Here are some possibilities that I think would qualify... 1. Replace/trade Aaron Brooks 2. Cut Jonathan Sullivan and move on. 3. Replace Tebuckey Jones and Jay Belamy. 4. Sign a stud FA LB, or two. 5. Trade Howard. Spkb25 at the beginning of the season i was huge brooks supporter. now im not ready to see him leave yet this year. i dont think this year we can get anyone better. he ahs the ability to be a very good qb. but he has to mature and lead this team. i never knew how much of a lack of a leader he was until his comments right before the last game. if he cant change that then eventually he has to go. baronm what seperates farve from brooks-they both have great athletism, both can run, both have a good arm..it\'s leadership and that is my biggest complaint about brooks is that he is not a leader..partly becasue he is unacountable for his actions and partly because he is a self-centered player.. team wins and stats do not neccessarily go hand in hand Now, can you please show me one guy that agrees with your \"spare me \'looking at it from a TEAM standpoint\'\" sentiment, just so long as the player is taken care of. Just ONE.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"