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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Alright, it was bound to happen, so I\'ll do it: Thanks for the extra info whodi. I\'m glad that other people also see that the O-Line doesn\'t matter if the QB is a BUM What? At the very least the ...
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02-19-2005, 05:43 PM | #31 |
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Alright, it was bound to happen, so I\'ll do it:
At the very least the OLine still has to block for the running game, don\'t they? |
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02-19-2005, 09:36 PM | #32 |
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First, football players have probably done more to bastardize the term \"businessman\" than any other group on the planet, IMO. Yes, football is a business, and they are paid for their services. But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics - something I believe VERY FEW NFL players know a thing about. So does it piss me off that Brooks keeps calling himself top 5? Yes and no. In part it makes me sad, b/c he is insane to think that. At least with Horn an argument can be made. In any case, I think it demonstrates character. Tom Brady has a much stronger case for holding out for a huge contract, but you don\'t see the guy pounding on his chest do you? I just think it shows what Brooks is made of, and frankly, I\'m not impressed. But you have a point, trying to get paid regardless of what you\'re really worth is something that a lot of people would do in the situation. That\'s not my point. I don\'t look at it from a standpoint of Aaron Brooks. I look at it from the standpoint of the Saints. I consider myself somewhat of an emotional shareholder in this stupid franchise. If I could buy stock in it, I would. I certainly dedicate far more of my time and emotion to the Saints then most of my other investments. Thus, I measure the team in many instances as if I am a part owner - as if I have some entitlement right. I\'m not saying that\'s the best way to do it, I\'m saying that\'s how I look at it. From the standpoint of the Saints, AB is a bad investment. Let me use an analogy, if I may, that we have used a lot in the past: a car. AB is like a porsche fuel injection system. Under perfect conditions the system has the ability to seriously boost horsepower, efficiency, and general performance from the car\'s engine. For such a potentially powerful piece of equipment, I can understand why the team would be willing to pay a premium. However, 4 years later, the damn fuel system hasn\'t paid off. Hoses are constantly rupturing and having to be replaced. The intakes get clogged and cause misfires. In general, the car runs real well every so often, but normally it is generally in need of repair and maintenance. To use the same analogy, the LBs may be flat tires and the OT may be a cracked radiator. If you really want this stupid car to go anywhere, you\'re gonna need to address the tires first. After that, you could move, but the radiator is really going to need to be replaced, or at least sealed and refilled with antifreeze. This fuel injection system may be a large overhaul, and may limit the car less than two flat tires, but it\'s still a problem and it still needs attention. That\'s how I feel about AB. He\'s a large investment that hasn\'t paid off. It goes back to the same issue on which we always seem to disagree - when is enough enough? We disagreed on Haslett, Brooks, Loomis, Venturi, and others along that vein. You seem willing to keep giving second and third and fourth and fifth chances. I think a lot of coaches and players on this team have had more than enough opportunity to prove themselves and have failed. It\'s time to overhaul the damn car before the few good parts we have remaining all go bad too.
I mean, Kurt Warner is less talented than AB. He had average WRs at best this season, and I think that\'s being generous. His o-line was terrible, and his RB isn\'t as talented as Deuce. Yet, Kurt No-Good Warner got PULLED FROM THE STARTING LINEUP with an 86.5 QB Rating. AB\'s was 79.5 this season. Tim Rattay was horrible this year, he was 78.1. Michael Vick, who was generally considered as a minimal threat in the passing game - and a guy who has a LONG way to go before he\'s a good QB (not just good runner) - was 78.1. So Vick is nearly as efficient as AB, but with that one little addition - the most explosive player in the league. I mean, in his 4th year as a starter AB had a 79.5 QB rating. Here are guys who were nominally worse who have lost, or are in danger of losing, their jobs: Joey Harrington, 77.5, Jeff Garcia 76.7, Drew Bledsoe 76.6, Vinny Testeverde 76.4. Look, I\'m not saying that the o-line, WRs, RBs, etc. didn\'t affect AB this year. Of course they did. But I expect a 6th year Pro with 4.5 years experience as a starter and being paid top 10 money to be able to deal with those things better than AB. You seem to disagree. Fine. But it is hard for me to imagine that the average backup in the league right now couldn\'t come in and put up SIMILAR numbers for a FIFTH of the cost. |
\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse
\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\" |
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02-19-2005, 10:32 PM | #33 |
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WhoDat --
Am I suppose to feel sorry for Tom Benson or some other owner? If you don\'t like what Brooks did, you should really dislike Mike McKenzie?!! You remember his situation in Green Bay, right? Spare me all this stuff about looking at the situation from an owner\'s point of view. Brooks\' salary hasn\'t hindered our cap number one bit. In fact, Benson needs to shell out a little more money. Brooks got what he could and whether you or anyone else thinks it\'s too much is irrelevant. I suppose you would have turned the money down if you had been in Brooks\' shoes. Yeah, right!!
The question was has Brooks progressed? You\'re a big fan of passer rating. Right? 2001 - 76.4 2002 - 80.1 2003 - 88.8 I call that progression. What do you call it? Yeah, Brooks had ONE bad year in fumbles lost. This year his turnovers were less than Tom Brady who won the super bowl. And even with the fumbles in 2003, his turnovers were less than Jake Delhomme who went to the superbowl P.S. -- You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. Sure, you might get the Brooks\' basing crew to agree with you. But, none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you. They don\'t agree with me either. They can see both sides. So can I. I just think I\'m right and you think you\'re right. [Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC] |
02-19-2005, 10:35 PM | #34 |
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Damn Who, well done. :thumbsup:
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02-20-2005, 09:15 AM | #35 |
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No wait, that was another thread, no wait again, it IS this thread. Or is this an AB thread, No wait, thats EVERY thread. Man I could post a topic \"Should we replace John Carney?\" and by the 3rd reply Gumbo, Whodat and the rest of the AB obsessed posters will be in yet another full blown AB arguement bringing up the EXACT same arguements. Geeez. I hope they cut him outright just so we can start talking about something else, anything else. I\'m starting to become sick of being a Saints fan. |
02-20-2005, 10:06 AM | #36 |
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This is why people jump on you about Brooks, but leave JKool alone. He can say read someone say, \"We need to find a replacement for Brooks\" and respond with, \"Yes, long-term it\'s something that has to be addressed, but I wouldn\'t get rid of him unless we\'re getting some other proven player, and defense is a bigger concern to me right now.\" You respond to the the same comment with, \"Sure! Why don\'t we just go hire some waterboy!?! THat\'s all we need right? AB is the best QB the Saints have ever had and if you can\'t see that you have an agenda!!!!\" Do me a favor - try not to polarize - you\'ll get farther with people. |
\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse
\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\" |
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02-20-2005, 10:24 AM | #37 |
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WhoDat --
I\'m not attacking you or anything. But, you seem to only look at one side of an issue. You have some good points here and there, but you totally overlook the other side of the arguement... What about the players side of the arguement? You never even talked about that!! NFL owners and GMs are looking out for themselves. They really don\'t have the players best interest in mind. The only reason they give a player more money is because the HAVE to!! Players sign contracts that a team will not honor if a player isn\'t performing the way they think he should. They will cut that player in a New York second!! They don\'t give a damn about honoring that contract. It\'s \"what have you done for me lately.\" What\'s fair about that? The player and the team agrees to a contract and the TEAM does NOT honor it. Is that fair, WhoDat? Is that ethical? So, when a player thinks he isn\'t getting paid enough and holds out - you feel sorry for the TEAM? Like I said, spare me \"looking at it from a TEAM standpoint.\" I really don\'t get you, WhoDat. You\'re a bright guy. But, you seem to have a problem looking at the BIG PICTURE. If it pisses you off so much that a player won\'t honor his contract .. then .. why don\'t you get just as pissed off when the TEAM doesn\'t honor a contact? Let me spell it out: 1. Players don\'t honor their contracts sometimes. 2. Teams don\'t honor their contracts sometimes. Who\'s right? Who\'s wrong? It\'s pretty simple actually. A player must look out for his best interest and the team must look out for their best interest. If a player feels like he is worth more money and hold out ... the TEAM doesn\'t have to sign him. And if they do, they must feel like he\'s worth it. And if the team doesn\'t honor a so-called \"guaranteed\" contract, they must feel like he doesn\'t deserve it. That, WhoDat, is the OTHER SIDE that you NEVER mentioned. [Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC] |
02-20-2005, 11:07 AM | #38 |
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Guy\'s getting old, leg strength is getting questionable, and he\'s famously botched a clutch kick or two. I dunno how much he\'s costing us, but it might be about time to look toward some fresh blood at kicker. Then again, NFL kickers (especially if expected to kick on turf in a dome) are a dime a dozen, so any journeyman would probably do. Umm ... am I a \"Carney Hater\" now??? |
02-20-2005, 11:21 AM | #39 |
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Haven\'t been on the board in a while. Nice to see some things never change.
Brooks has every right to try and get his money. There is a business aspect to the game that players would be foolish not to address. The window of opportunity for them is very small and they have to take advantage of these opportunities whenever they can. A byproduct of that is negative reaction when that player handles the situation poorly. I think it can be said very fairly that AB sucks when it comes to public relations. Also, when a player denegrates his team in a public forum, such as an interview for a newspaper, and puts himself on a pedestal above his team, to think that people won\'t react negatively to that is crazy. Now, I\'ve been a Saints fan all of my life. I have to say that Dave friggin Wilson handled himself better with his teammates and the public than AB has. The guy sucks at it!! And if a guy is gonna say that he\'s a top 5 qb in this league, and then doesn\'t back it up, you better damn well expect people are gonna slam him. AB deserves all the criticism he gets. While he isn\'t the only issue that needs to be addressed on this team, HE IS THE QUARTERBACK!!!!!! You want the glory of playing in this league, you better learn to accept the responsibility. THAT is why people seem to like Delhomme so much better. Because when they lose he doesn\'t shirk the responsiblity. He\'s the leader of that team so no matter what\'s fair or unfair, he\'d better be prepared to handle the tough questions and criticism. And he then does just that with self-deprecation and an eagerness to correct the problems. As for teams not honoring contracts, that\'s why players negotiate guaranteed portions of contracts and signing bonuses. They get a certain amount of money regardless of their performance. But the rest of the money, they had better perform as advertised or their EMPLOYER has the right to tell them to go home. I hope that AB comes out next year and lights the league up. If he does so, then I think that he will have earned the respect of everyone that bashes him on this board. But he had better start being a leader first, lead by example, demand accountability from himself. The rest of the team will see that, and I guarantee you it will have a domino effect. But, if you look at the entire whole player that is AB, the past results are unacceptable, and if he can\'t or won\'t do what is necessary to be a leader on this team, then I say we start looking in another direction. You\'ve got to remember, every offensive play, 10 guys look directly at the QB. No question he has to lead. If he\'s gonna be talking himself up he better be ready to !@#$ or get off the pot!! |
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02-20-2005, 11:24 AM | #40 |
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You\'re right Billy, the team is irrelevant, just so long as AB is taken care of. True colors seem to be shining through.
Just thought I would disprove this point - not that I think it will sink in. I didn\'t find quotes from Whoodi, Gator, or BMG - I think it\'s well established that they\'re on my side of the fence. But here are posters I found quotes from in the LAST FEW DAYS that are in line with exactly what I\'ve said in THIS thread. Papz, ChrisRX, JoeSam, SubGuy, SFIAH, Saintfan (that\'s right - even your biggest ally), JKool, TayTay, Saints_LB, Fan Frenzy, lKelly67, Scotty, Danno, Spkb25, and Baronm. Again, these are quotes just from the LAST FEW DAYS and if you would like, I\'ll be happy to show you my points from THIS THREAD alone that parallel what each poster has said in the quote. Papz
JoeSam
TayTay
Danno
Spkb25
Now, can you please show me one guy that agrees with your \"spare me \'looking at it from a TEAM standpoint\'\" sentiment, just so long as the player is taken care of. Just ONE. |
\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse
\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\" |
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