mutineer10

Thought I\'d examine the \"age\" issue a little further just to see what I could come up with. Here\'s some stats from a few recent oldies, starting when they reached age 32:

Jerry Rice - Aged 32 in 1994. 841 rec, 11119 yds & 65 TD\'s from 1994 - 2004. That\'s an average of 76 rec, 1010 yds & 6 TD\'s. This also includes the 1997 season where he appeared in only 2 games. Will be 43 years old this year.

Tim Brown - Aged 32 in 1998. 495 rec, 6346 yds & 40 TD\'s from 1998 - 2004. That\'s an average of 71 rec, 907 yds & 6 TD\'s. Will be 39 this year.

Jimmy Smith - Aged 32 in 2001. 320 rec, 4377 yds & 25 TD\'s from 2001 - 2004. That\'s an average of 80 rec, 1094 yds & 6 TD\'s. Two of those seasons have been Byron Leftwich\'s training period. Just turned 36.

Isaac Bruce - was 34 this season. Posted 89 rec, 1292 yds & 6 TD\'s as the #2 WR in the St. Louis offense.

I\'m not trying to push an agenda. In fact, I never expected the stats to be this encouraging. Heck, Jerry Rice didn\'t even get started until about age 30! Obviously, Horn is no Jerry Rice, but there seems to be more hope than I previously thought...

LKelley67

tho the posts aren\'t directly related i think i sense more unity from billy and whodi on this topic that i can recall elsewhere. namely, this is business. bang for the buck cap management is as vital to the patriots success as the players performance. i think everyone here recognizes the good qualities and game joe brings every week. as pointed out tho, he won\'t be increasing in productivity at this point of his career. jerry rice was probably the best receiver ever. but look up his numbers. after an injury in \'97 at age 35 there was a very noticeable drop off. even more significant is that he was one of the components that drove the niners to salary cap hell. there is a window of opportunity to push a team for a few years. then the salary cap starts to close it\'s teeth whether you have been successful or not. don\'t quote me but i believe the titans have over 30million of cap money obligated this year to players no longer with the team. what happens then? you cut an all pro cb, a top kicker, a starting tackle, the league\'s leading receiver, and more for zero- absolutely nothing. derrick mason (1000+ yds 4 yrs straight) was only obligated 4.7million and they couldnt keep him. excuse me if i rant too much... i could go for a lush extension for joe if we had come off a couple of superbowl appearances but you know the story here. think new england will keep ty law, one of the best cornerbacks in recent years, for the 14mil current cap number for \'05? about as much as they did lawyer milloy. i think this topic is folly somewhat because i cannot imagine this front office having the imagination or umph to do anything so drastic (32-32 for 4 yrs or not). still theoretically, i do believe a team needs to be willing and able to do whatever it takes to bring success. the same formula and result the past four years is a much more compelling statement than 4 games at the end of last season. keep joe with a favorable extension (see rod smith denver) or franchise him next year if no go. i\'d like to see him be a part of the second playoff win in 38 years. in any case, the jaws of the salary cap will start to close on this franchise soon. i am for ANY move for ANY player though that will result in seeing this beleaguered franchise experiencing winning at levels never before attained.

[Edited on 24/2/2005 by LKelley67]

4saintspirit

Nobody really wants to trade Horn -- but few want to pay him the kind of money Owens, Moss and Harrisson is getting. I guess the argument is that Horn only is going to be a top receiver for another year or 2 and maybe we can get something really good for him.

WhoDat

People said the same thing two years ago. 172 rec, 2,372 yards, and 21 TDs later, despite injuries, no real second threat to take pressure off of him at WR, an up and down running game, inconsistent QB, and defense that keeps him off the field and makes the O play catchup, and people are still saying the same thing. I wonder - if he goes to the Pro Bowl in 2005 and 2006, will people be saying in 2006 that he\'s done?

So long as the guy is producing like a top 5 WR (which he is), I don\'t see why paying him like a top 10 or 15 WR is a bad thing. Once he stops producing, then worry about cutting, restructuring, or trading him.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

GumboBC

I agree with that.

Joe isn\'t a possession receiver. He also isn\'t the type of receiver, like Stallworth, who has a chance take it to the house every time he catches the football.

Personally, I like a number 1 receiver that is more of a threat after he catches the ball. Given the amount of catches Joe makes, if he had that ability he would truly be an elite receiver.

But, I\'m happy with Joe being our #1 guy. He\'s good enough.

Joe\'s biggest asset is that he knows how to get open and he\'s pretty consistent at catching the football.



[Edited on 24/2/2005 by GumboBC]

saintswhodi

No, you are right Tay Tay. It did imply having 2 first round picks, but you said emphasis on the word EARLY, which I never said. If we get a late first, I would be thrilled. We would have two firsts, and possib;y two seconds depending on how a Howard trade went. Or maybe we could do Howard and the late first to move up and get Williams if we didn\'t get Coles or Mason. I hope that os clear.

Kelley, I am right with you. As I said before, I love Joe, but Joe ain\'t Jerry Rice. I am glad he made the pro bowl. And that he has done it consistently. But his age is killing me. We could give Joe a decent contract now but what if he then falls off? We are stuck. Look at Warren Sapp. Age struck him in a blink. Same for Tim Brown. One year you are good the next the fans are wondering what happened? Add to it the fact the deal will be for 3-4 years, Joe will be 37 or 38 and we won\'t be able to unload the contract. Then we fall into either having to let him play it out or cutting him, which basically equals dead money. If a younger receiver can come in and do what Joe did, what\'s the big deal? Coles could do it, I have no doubt. And Coles has the speed Joe doesn\'t. Mike Williams could be an upgrade, he is a stud. But like Kelley said, I am not one to want the team to have to sit here in two years and cut stars like Tenn and the 49ers cause we wanted to hold on to aging players too long. I don\'t know how you can be for the team winning if you want us to put ourselves in that situation.

[Edited on 24/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

papz

If we wait a couple of years, his trade value won\'t be at it\'s peak. It\'s better than not resigning him after the year and letting him walk without compensation. Horn for another 1st rounder this year would be lovely because the draft is so deep. But with the amount of quality receivers in free agency, tradeing Horn would be extremely difficult. So I guess we\'ll just have to take it a year at a time. Besides at 4.7 million this year, Horn is a bargain.

I\'m all in favor of trying to get Mike Williams in the draft. This guy is a beast. If we chose to select offense first instead of defense for this guy, I\'d have no problem with it.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

All little common sense goes a long way.

LKelley67

joe for coles straigh across! he is definitely a gibbs kinda guy if he can see past joe\'s horn. we negotiate that bonus problem, cure a wahington ill, and get 7 years younger.

saintswhodi

That for me would be ideal Kelley. Coles is a younger, faster Joe Horn. Win/win, well for us. lol