Courtney Watson

baronm · 02-28-2005, 02:18 PM

traditionally mLB is the QB of defense.

Danno · 02-28-2005, 04:22 PM

What are you talking about? Going back five years, to from the 1999 draft to last year\'s, there have been 9 MLBs chosen in the first round and only 5 OLBs.

My count shows 9-7. And one (Suggs) is actually a DE. And I\'ll let you slide with two of those going 29 and 31. And I didn\'t even bother to address the ILB\'s drafted for a 3-4 versus a 4-3, which I\'m learning lately really matters. That makes my head spin. I\'ll leave that up to our resident stat-boys. But that was interesting. I didn\'t know it was that close.

BUT,
Interesting to see that if you include 2nd and 3rd rounds though you get a pretty clear picture of the perceived importance of the positions.

According to NFL.com,
Over the last 3 years, 1st 3 rounds (1st day draft picks), here are the LINEBACKER tallies...

2004-10 OLB, 2 ILB
2003-11 OLB, 5 ILB
2002-11 OLB, 2 ILB

So if my math is correct, thats 32 OLB\'s drafted, and 9 MLB\'s drafted on the 1st day

To me that looks like WAY more OLB\'s than ILB\'s picked in the early rounds.

But I do agree with your premise that they are ALL important. And looking at our roster I\'m more concerned with SLB/WLB than with MLB. So I stand by my statement.

JKool · 02-28-2005, 04:52 PM

Jay Bellamy calls our defensive plays. In the NFL it is good to have the \"QB of the defense\" be a guy who is almost always on the field, which isn\'t always a MLB (except in the case of the \"new breed MLBs\", the \'tweeners I\'ve been talking about).

The MLB\'s importance decreases if he cannot play on passing downs, since that takes him off the field for somewhere around 20-35% of the snaps. This is different from the CBs, DEs, the FS, and the nickle linebacker (usually an OLB).

As for importance of positions on the defense, I will state my view again. I think of player importance as roughly \"up one side and down the other\":
DE
DT (nose style)
Second DE
OLB (either W or S)
CB
MLB
Second DT
Second OLB (either W or S)
Safety (either S or F)
Second Safety (either S of F)
CB
Nickle CB
Depth at any position

That makes MLB the sixth most important in my mind. Even if he is fifth, how important is that, there are only 11 starters?

Danno · 02-28-2005, 05:13 PM

As for importance of positions on the defense, I will state my view again. I think of player importance as roughly \"up one side and down the other\":
DE
DT (nose style)
Second DE
OLB (either W or S)
CB
MLB
Second DT
Second OLB (either W or S)
Safety (either S or F)
Second Safety (either S of F)
CB
Nickle CB
Depth at any position

Thats probably my exact ranking also.

GumboBC · 02-28-2005, 05:50 PM

The MLB\'s importance decreases if he cannot play on passing downs, since that takes him off the field for somewhere around 20-35% of the snaps.

This is true. Say for someone like Orlando Ruff. But, who wants someone like that? Nobody. In years past the idea was to have a big MLB that could stop the run and they really didn\'t depend on him to stop the pass.

But, that\'s not true in today\'s game ... for the most part. So, I think that\'s kind of a moot point, JKool. I\'m not suggesting we get a MLB who is big and slow and needs to come off the field in passing situations.

Instead, I\'m suggesting just the opposite. We need a MLB who can do it all. Stuff the run and cover the pass. The most dominate player at any LB position in today\'s game is Ray Lewis. Historically the MLB position has always been the
bigger play-maker.

There have been OLB who are the playmakers on their team. Maybe the \"trend\" is changing. I\'m just not buying into that idea though.

Historically, the middle linebacker has been the most dominate of all the linebacker positions.

You can go down the line and take a look at some players like: Sam Mills, Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary ,Ray Nitschke, Dick Butkus, and Willie Lanier.... All great players ... All middle linebackers. Most are in the hall of fame.

Danno · 02-28-2005, 06:25 PM

The MLB\'s importance decreases if he cannot play on passing downs, since that takes him off the field for somewhere around 20-35% of the snaps.

This is true. Say for someone like Orlando Ruff. But, who wants someone like that? Nobody. In years past the idea was to have a big MLB that could stop the run and they really didn\'t depend on him to stop the pass.

But, that\'s not true in today\'s game ... for the most part. So, I think that\'s kind of a moot point, JKool. I\'m not suggesting we get a MLB who is big and slow and needs to come off the field in passing situations.

Instead, I\'m suggesting just the opposite. We need a MLB who can do it all. Stuff the run and cover the pass. The most dominate player at any LB position in today\'s game is Ray Lewis. Historically the MLB position has always been the
bigger play-maker.

There have been OLB who are the playmakers on their team. Maybe the \"trend\" is changing. I\'m just not buying into that idea though.

Historically, the middle linebacker has been the most dominate of all the linebacker positions.

You can go down the line and take a look at some players like: Sam Mills, Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary ,Ray Nitschke, Dick Butkus, and Willie Lanier.... All great players ... All middle linebackers. Most are in the hall of fame.

The knock on Hartwell is just that. He is terrible dropping back in pass coverage, and timed at 4.8 seconds. I like Hartwell, but its not like we\'re gonna get a Ray Lewis with this guy. Upgrade? Yes, no question.
He\'s a prototype ILB best suited for a 3-4. I think Ruff is also.
I think Bell has also only played in a 3-4.
How they would adapt to a 4-3 I honestly don\'t know. I\'ll defer to the experts on that. Detillier thinks he\'d do fine so I just don\'t know.

JKool · 02-28-2005, 06:37 PM

Historically, the middle linebacker has been the most dominate of all the linebacker positions.

I guess, I don\'t agree. I think that there have been some very great MLBs, but I think historically speaking that this has not been the as dominant as you make out.

Think back on the Dome Patrol: do you really think that Sam Mills was a bigger play maker than Swilling and Jackson? I\'m not sure I buy that; I\'m not saying you\'re wrong, but, for me, the jury is out on that one.

Historic Impact OLBs:
Lawrence Taylor (changed the way OLB is played)
Derrik Brooks
Bryce Paup
Kevin Greene
Derrek Thomas
(And there are more)

Current Impact OLBs:
LaVar Arrinington
Boss Bailey
Peter Boulware
Keith Brooking
Willie McGinest
Julian Petersen
Junior Seau (well maybe not anymore)
Takeo Spikes
Terrell Suggs
DJ Williams
Will Witherspoon

I\'m not really disagreeing with you Billy, but I am saying that a run-stuffer MLB isn\'t exactly that high up on my list IF we can fix the interior of the line. Also, teams have been successful in using guys who are built more like OLBs at MLB these days.

I think we can get greater impact out of an OLB than an MLB - due to the range of MOST NOT ALL MLBs in the NFL these days. Summary: more downs, greater range, not obviously more important as an impact palyer = OLB (usually).

I also agree with Danno on this: MLB - Watson and Ruff (ok to good), OLB - ? (maybe Bockwoldt).

turbo_dog · 02-28-2005, 06:47 PM

What are you talking about? Going back five years, to from the 1999 draft to last year\'s, there have been 9 MLBs chosen in the first round and only 5 OLBs.

My count shows 9-7. And one (Suggs) is actually a DE. And I\'ll let you slide with two of those going 29 and 31. And I didn\'t even bother to address the ILB\'s drafted for a 3-4 versus a 4-3, which I\'m learning lately really matters. That makes my head spin. I\'ll leave that up to our resident stat-boys. But that was interesting. I didn\'t know it was that close.

BUT,
Interesting to see that if you include 2nd and 3rd rounds though you get a pretty clear picture of the perceived importance of the positions.

According to NFL.com,
Over the last 3 years, 1st 3 rounds (1st day draft picks), here are the LINEBACKER tallies...

2004-10 OLB, 2 ILB
2003-11 OLB, 5 ILB
2002-11 OLB, 2 ILB

So if my math is correct, thats 32 OLB\'s drafted, and 9 MLB\'s drafted on the 1st day

To me that looks like WAY more OLB\'s than ILB\'s picked in the early rounds.

But I do agree with your premise that they are ALL important. And looking at our roster I\'m more concerned with SLB/WLB than with MLB. So I stand by my statement.

Danno, I\'ve gone back and looked again. My numbers were off a little, but I still have different numbers than you. Let\'s take a look.

OLB ****************** MLB
1st - 7 **************** 1st- 8 (okay so I had an extra one)
2nd - 19 ************** 2nd - 6
3rd - 21 *************** 3rd - 8
---------------------------------------------------
47 ************** 22 Totals

So there are double the amount of OLB taken in the first three draft, including the DEs that switched over in the NFL. But in the first round there have been more MLBs taken than OLBs. I have to think that, in light of the fact that there are TWO OLBs on the field for every play and only ONE MLB, teams are putting a bigger priority on the MLB.

BlackandBlue · 02-28-2005, 06:53 PM

Let me explain to you exactly what is going on here.

You say youÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve seen Orlando Ruff make plays. IÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve never seen Ruff make plays outside of special teams. And I sure as hell havenÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢t seen any threads started by Billy that addressed this subject, in the two years that heÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢s been a Saint.
So I deduce from this that the only intent of this thread is to get under the skin of others on this board, because he knows from past experiences that a thread about Watson would accomplish this goal.

GumboBC · 02-28-2005, 06:57 PM

Let me explain to you exactly what is going on here.

You say youÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve seen Orlando Ruff make plays. IÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve never seen Ruff make plays outside of special teams. And I sure as hell havenÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢t seen any threads started by Billy that addressed this subject, in the two years that heÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢s been a Saint.
So I deduce from this that the only intent of this thread is to get under the skin of others on this board, because he knows from past experiences that a thread about Watson would accomplish this goal.

My point wasn\'t that Ruff should be starting. My piont was that just because folks tell me that they saw Watson make a few plays doesn\'t mean I\'m sold on the guy.

I saw Watson out of position more times than I saw him making plays. If that gets under your , or anyone elses skin, then I can\'t help that and I\'m certainly not alone in feeling that way.

I\'m not trying to get under anyone\'s skin. That\'s simply the way I feel about Watson.

02-28-2005, 02:18 PM	#31
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Courtney Watson traditionally mLB is the QB of defense.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

02-28-2005, 04:22 PM	#32
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Courtney Watson What are you talking about? Going back five years, to from the 1999 draft to last year\'s, there have been 9 MLBs chosen in the first round and only 5 OLBs. My count shows 9-7. And one (Suggs) is actually a DE. And I\'ll let you slide with two of those going 29 and 31. And I didn\'t even bother to address the ILB\'s drafted for a 3-4 versus a 4-3, which I\'m learning lately really matters. That makes my head spin. I\'ll leave that up to our resident stat-boys. But that was interesting. I didn\'t know it was that close. BUT, Interesting to see that if you include 2nd and 3rd rounds though you get a pretty clear picture of the perceived importance of the positions. According to NFL.com, Over the last 3 years, 1st 3 rounds (1st day draft picks), here are the LINEBACKER tallies... 2004-10 OLB, 2 ILB 2003-11 OLB, 5 ILB 2002-11 OLB, 2 ILB So if my math is correct, thats 32 OLB\'s drafted, and 9 MLB\'s drafted on the 1st day To me that looks like WAY more OLB\'s than ILB\'s picked in the early rounds. But I do agree with your premise that they are ALL important. And looking at our roster I\'m more concerned with SLB/WLB than with MLB. So I stand by my statement.

02-28-2005, 04:52 PM	#33
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Courtney Watson Jay Bellamy calls our defensive plays. In the NFL it is good to have the \"QB of the defense\" be a guy who is almost always on the field, which isn\'t always a MLB (except in the case of the \"new breed MLBs\", the \'tweeners I\'ve been talking about). The MLB\'s importance decreases if he cannot play on passing downs, since that takes him off the field for somewhere around 20-35% of the snaps. This is different from the CBs, DEs, the FS, and the nickle linebacker (usually an OLB). As for importance of positions on the defense, I will state my view again. I think of player importance as roughly \"up one side and down the other\": DE DT (nose style) Second DE OLB (either W or S) CB MLB Second DT Second OLB (either W or S) Safety (either S or F) Second Safety (either S of F) CB Nickle CB Depth at any position That makes MLB the sixth most important in my mind. Even if he is fifth, how important is that, there are only 11 starters?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-28-2005, 05:13 PM	#34
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Courtney Watson As for importance of positions on the defense, I will state my view again. I think of player importance as roughly \"up one side and down the other\": DE DT (nose style) Second DE OLB (either W or S) CB MLB Second DT Second OLB (either W or S) Safety (either S or F) Second Safety (either S of F) CB Nickle CB Depth at any position Thats probably my exact ranking also.

02-28-2005, 05:50 PM	#35
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Courtney Watson The MLB\'s importance decreases if he cannot play on passing downs, since that takes him off the field for somewhere around 20-35% of the snaps. This is true. Say for someone like Orlando Ruff. But, who wants someone like that? Nobody. In years past the idea was to have a big MLB that could stop the run and they really didn\'t depend on him to stop the pass. But, that\'s not true in today\'s game ... for the most part. So, I think that\'s kind of a moot point, JKool. I\'m not suggesting we get a MLB who is big and slow and needs to come off the field in passing situations. Instead, I\'m suggesting just the opposite. We need a MLB who can do it all. Stuff the run and cover the pass. The most dominate player at any LB position in today\'s game is Ray Lewis. Historically the MLB position has always been the bigger play-maker. There have been OLB who are the playmakers on their team. Maybe the \"trend\" is changing. I\'m just not buying into that idea though. Historically, the middle linebacker has been the most dominate of all the linebacker positions. You can go down the line and take a look at some players like: Sam Mills, Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary ,Ray Nitschke, Dick Butkus, and Willie Lanier.... All great players ... All middle linebackers. Most are in the hall of fame.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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02-28-2005, 06:25 PM	#36
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Courtney Watson The MLB\'s importance decreases if he cannot play on passing downs, since that takes him off the field for somewhere around 20-35% of the snaps. This is true. Say for someone like Orlando Ruff. But, who wants someone like that? Nobody. In years past the idea was to have a big MLB that could stop the run and they really didn\'t depend on him to stop the pass. But, that\'s not true in today\'s game ... for the most part. So, I think that\'s kind of a moot point, JKool. I\'m not suggesting we get a MLB who is big and slow and needs to come off the field in passing situations. Instead, I\'m suggesting just the opposite. We need a MLB who can do it all. Stuff the run and cover the pass. The most dominate player at any LB position in today\'s game is Ray Lewis. Historically the MLB position has always been the bigger play-maker. There have been OLB who are the playmakers on their team. Maybe the \"trend\" is changing. I\'m just not buying into that idea though. Historically, the middle linebacker has been the most dominate of all the linebacker positions. You can go down the line and take a look at some players like: Sam Mills, Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary ,Ray Nitschke, Dick Butkus, and Willie Lanier.... All great players ... All middle linebackers. Most are in the hall of fame. The knock on Hartwell is just that. He is terrible dropping back in pass coverage, and timed at 4.8 seconds. I like Hartwell, but its not like we\'re gonna get a Ray Lewis with this guy. Upgrade? Yes, no question. He\'s a prototype ILB best suited for a 3-4. I think Ruff is also. I think Bell has also only played in a 3-4. How they would adapt to a 4-3 I honestly don\'t know. I\'ll defer to the experts on that. Detillier thinks he\'d do fine so I just don\'t know.

02-28-2005, 06:37 PM	#37
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Courtney Watson Historically, the middle linebacker has been the most dominate of all the linebacker positions. I guess, I don\'t agree. I think that there have been some very great MLBs, but I think historically speaking that this has not been the as dominant as you make out. Think back on the Dome Patrol: do you really think that Sam Mills was a bigger play maker than Swilling and Jackson? I\'m not sure I buy that; I\'m not saying you\'re wrong, but, for me, the jury is out on that one. Historic Impact OLBs: Lawrence Taylor (changed the way OLB is played) Derrik Brooks Bryce Paup Kevin Greene Derrek Thomas (And there are more) Current Impact OLBs: LaVar Arrinington Boss Bailey Peter Boulware Keith Brooking Willie McGinest Julian Petersen Junior Seau (well maybe not anymore) Takeo Spikes Terrell Suggs DJ Williams Will Witherspoon I\'m not really disagreeing with you Billy, but I am saying that a run-stuffer MLB isn\'t exactly that high up on my list IF we can fix the interior of the line. Also, teams have been successful in using guys who are built more like OLBs at MLB these days. I think we can get greater impact out of an OLB than an MLB - due to the range of MOST NOT ALL MLBs in the NFL these days. Summary: more downs, greater range, not obviously more important as an impact palyer = OLB (usually). I also agree with Danno on this: MLB - Watson and Ruff (ok to good), OLB - ? (maybe Bockwoldt).
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-28-2005, 06:47 PM	#38
turbo_dog 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,592	Courtney Watson What are you talking about? Going back five years, to from the 1999 draft to last year\'s, there have been 9 MLBs chosen in the first round and only 5 OLBs. My count shows 9-7. And one (Suggs) is actually a DE. And I\'ll let you slide with two of those going 29 and 31. And I didn\'t even bother to address the ILB\'s drafted for a 3-4 versus a 4-3, which I\'m learning lately really matters. That makes my head spin. I\'ll leave that up to our resident stat-boys. But that was interesting. I didn\'t know it was that close. BUT, Interesting to see that if you include 2nd and 3rd rounds though you get a pretty clear picture of the perceived importance of the positions. According to NFL.com, Over the last 3 years, 1st 3 rounds (1st day draft picks), here are the LINEBACKER tallies... 2004-10 OLB, 2 ILB 2003-11 OLB, 5 ILB 2002-11 OLB, 2 ILB So if my math is correct, thats 32 OLB\'s drafted, and 9 MLB\'s drafted on the 1st day To me that looks like WAY more OLB\'s than ILB\'s picked in the early rounds. But I do agree with your premise that they are ALL important. And looking at our roster I\'m more concerned with SLB/WLB than with MLB. So I stand by my statement. Danno, I\'ve gone back and looked again. My numbers were off a little, but I still have different numbers than you. Let\'s take a look. OLB **************** MLB 1st - 7 ************ 1st- 8 (okay so I had an extra one) 2nd - 19 ********** 2nd - 6 3rd - 21 *********** 3rd - 8 --------------------------------------------------- 47 ********** 22 Totals So there are double the amount of OLB taken in the first three draft, including the DEs that switched over in the NFL. But in the first round there have been more MLBs taken than OLBs. I have to think that, in light of the fact that there are TWO OLBs on the field for every play and only ONE** MLB, teams are putting a bigger priority on the MLB.

02-28-2005, 06:53 PM	#39
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Courtney Watson Let me explain to you exactly what is going on here. You say youÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve seen Orlando Ruff make plays. IÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve never seen Ruff make plays outside of special teams. And I sure as hell havenÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢t seen any threads started by Billy that addressed this subject, in the two years that heÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢s been a Saint. So I deduce from this that the only intent of this thread is to get under the skin of others on this board, because he knows from past experiences that a thread about Watson would accomplish this goal.

02-28-2005, 06:57 PM	#40
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Courtney Watson Let me explain to you exactly what is going on here. You say youÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve seen Orlando Ruff make plays. IÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢ve never seen Ruff make plays outside of special teams. And I sure as hell havenÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢t seen any threads started by Billy that addressed this subject, in the two years that heÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢s been a Saint. So I deduce from this that the only intent of this thread is to get under the skin of others on this board, because he knows from past experiences that a thread about Watson would accomplish this goal. My point wasn\'t that Ruff should be starting. My piont was that just because folks tell me that they saw Watson make a few plays doesn\'t mean I\'m sold on the guy. I saw Watson out of position more times than I saw him making plays. If that gets under your , or anyone elses skin, then I can\'t help that and I\'m certainly not alone in feeling that way. I\'m not trying to get under anyone\'s skin. That\'s simply the way I feel about Watson.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616