Pay Brees!

Danno · 08-13-2016, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by WillSaints81

Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon.

But he hasn't reached that next level yet. He's still at that good but not great level.

Seer1 · 08-13-2016, 07:01 PM

Ahhh, time for the defense to carry the load for a while. Let's start going the way of the Broncos instead.

spkb25 · 08-13-2016, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by WillSaints81

Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon.

guess it will help not to be paying Junior still...there's about 25-30 million being spent on former players.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 08-13-2016, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

The man's got a family to feed........pay the man so his kids can eat.

I see and appreciate your sarcasm. But in all honesty, the CBA mandates those dollars be paid to players. From: NFL halfway to $25B goal - SportsBusiness Daily | SportsBusiness Journal | SportsBusiness Daily Global

... the NFL will be paying players $6.4 billion in 2016. Under terms of the NFL collective-bargaining agreement, players get between 47 percent and 48 percent of nearly all revenue — so across the 32 teams, that computes to between $13.3 and $13.6 billion in league revenue for the coming year.

That revenue has increased by 60% since 2010.

All of this undergirds the fact that this contract isn't really about the money. QBs like Luck, Palmer, Brady, Eli Manning, and the like are getting similar money.

The contract is about the commitment to a Super Bowl winning, 1st ballot HOF lock, QB that is 38 years old. It is about not being able to allocate those dollars elsewhere and the risk that Brees may not continue to play way above his pay grade.

SFIAH

AsylumGuido · 08-13-2016, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by WillSaints81

Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon.

And your point is?

AsylumGuido · 08-13-2016, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by spkb25

guess it will help not to be paying Junior still...there's about 25-30 million being spent on former players.

Not even close. After this season there is only $1.3 million in dead money remaining against the cap. Everything but $1.3M for Browner and $1,000 for Jack Tapp remains. That is no longer any excuse. The Saints are going to be a great cap shape moving forward. They could pay Brees $40M per year if they wanted and still be fine.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 08-13-2016, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by WillSaints81

Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon.

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

And your point is?

The point seems to be if that if the Saints pay Brees, then there will not be money available to pay Cooks. But it misses a few key points:

1. Cooks has a 5th year option. So he won't be a free agent until 2019.
2. It's likely that Brees' next contract will be 3 years. So there will be no overlap.
3. most importantly, as I stated in my other post, NFL revenue and therefore the salary cap is going to continue to skyrocket. According to this site:

http://salarycapcrunch.com/projectin...16-20-seasons/

By the 2019 season the salary cap will be pushing $180 million.

Bottom line is that the NFL is essentially a money tree as long as you don't have a long string of bad picks in free agency.

SFIAH

burningmetal · 08-14-2016, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Anyone who thought that the holdup was rookie contracts are whatever are operating with flawed assumptions. The two flawed assumptions that I've consistently seen over the last 6 months:

1. That this is some type of restructure that the team controls. It's not. It's a negotiation for a new contract. It's just that the Saints can do the extension now because Brees is under contract until next March. After that all bets are off.

2. That Brees is going to see this from a Saints Fan perspective. So somehow the option of accepting a low ball offer, or that there's no way he's going to play elsewhere are part of the equation. This is going to be Brees' last major contract. Up until this moment he is playing at an elite level. He is worth every penny of market value and has 10+ years of Hall of Fame level evidence to show for it.

There is nothing easy about this. Brees' last contract was $100 million, $60 million guaranteed. We all see the $30 million cap number for this year as the residual of that contract. The next one is going to average $25 million a year with much of it guaranteed. That's a tough pill to swallow for the Saints.

The problem isn't that it's a blank check. The problem is that market rate seems like a blank check. Just think about the fact that Luck signed for 6 years/ $140 million/ $47 million guaranteed coming off a dismal season where he missed more than half the season. Where Von Miller, who isn't even a QB, just got $70 million in guaranteed dollars. That's the market. If the Saints choose not to pay it, some other team certainly will.

I agree to a point. As long as there is a clear understanding that a fair deal for the player is going to have to near market rate, and that the guaranteed money will need to be upped in order to shorten the contract length. Brees isn't likely to get a Luck Type contract because few believe he'll be here 5 or 6 more years after 2016 to play. That's moving into George Blanda territory. Pretty much if a 3 year contract is on the table, then $70-$75 million is the number, and it'll likely have to be all (or nearly all) guaranteed.

As for the money for the rest of the squad, Loomis has been playing the accounting game based on the fact that the cap is going to keep rising. Brees money hasn't kept the Saints from outlaying dollars to Byrd, or Fleener, or fixing Westbank's contract. And that cap is going to keep growing. In fact the Saints will likely save over $5 million on this year's cap if they get a deal done as Brees' cap hit is at $30 million. An extension can put $40 million in Brees pocket and lower the cap to under $25 million at the same time.

Finally, be sure that stadium dollars are not the driving engine for paying the salaries of players. The vast bulk of the dollars are from TV contracts. And expect those contracts to keep pushing the cap, and player salaries because NFL football is like printing money for these networks and their advertisers.

SFIAH

I'm well aware of market value. It's been discussed for years and years, and is a secret to no one, at this point. But market "value" is mostly a residual consequence of teams being desperate and over paying. Once they over pay, the bar is set. And when that happens every decent QB, not just the elite, want to negotiate at or above that number, because the precedent is already set that teams will do anything to have stability at the QB position.

Neither Drew nor any other of these guys with 100 million plus contracts have actually "earned" that money. Nothing they do is that important when you compare it to other jobs around the world. So I get highly annoyed by this idea that the team owes Drew something extra because market value has risen since his last deal. They don't owe him anything, he has made plenty. But I get it from his perspective that he can't just take a low ball offer when he could make more elsewhere. So I'm not gonna toilet paper his house if he should leave. It's business. But the Saints have to be reasonable. They can't pay a guy his age like he's 25.

I hear what you are saying about the cap rising, and I have heard that many times from people defending Loomis' tactics. You mentioned a couple players whom the team has signed, but the problem is it's always just a player here, and a player there, each year. I'll admit that I wanted Byrd before he came here, but when I actually saw the contract I was blown away. It was extremely ill-advised to put that much into one player with as many problems as they needed to address on defense.

There never seems to be enough money to go around in free agency. And when they do sign people, it's usually a bad move. I think they over paid for Fleener, for example, but that's just my opinion. It's hard to build through the draft alone. There are so many busts. You need to have a few proven commodities. Many of the key players who were on the '09 team were not drafted by the Saints.

For the past several years Loomis has been deferring money, which has only served to keep the team out of the penalty. I don't consider that very smart business.

burningmetal · 08-14-2016, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Not even close. After this season there is only $1.3 million in dead money remaining against the cap. Everything but $1.3M for Browner and $1,000 for Jack Tapp remains. That is no longer any excuse. The Saints are going to be a great cap shape moving forward. They could pay Brees $40M per year if they wanted and still be fine.

Really? 40 million, and still be fine? Taking that comment at face value is completely unrealistic, for one. But if it were true, then what now do you suppose is the holdup? I'm not even concerned about him leaving. I'm more curious to see how much meat will be left on the bone when his deal is done. But if they can pay him THAT much, without even having a problem, then what would be the reason to stall? Clearly it isn't that simple.

I'm almost convinced that he could actually leave and some would still insist they know what's going on, and deny that there is any actual issue with the negotiations.

halloween 65 · 08-14-2016, 01:26 PM

I believe if we don't have a deep, deep playoff run with Brees under C this season then he's not going to be here next season. Another 7-9 or even a 9-7 isn't going to cut it. Could be the FO is waiting to see how things go.

08-13-2016, 05:32 PM	#31
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by WillSaints81 Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon. But he hasn't reached that next level yet. He's still at that good but not great level.

08-13-2016, 07:01 PM	#32
Seer1 Site Donor Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bayou Bayfield CO Posts: 4,722	Re: Pay Brees! Ahhh, time for the defense to carry the load for a while. Let's start going the way of the Broncos instead.

08-13-2016, 07:07 PM	#33
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by WillSaints81 Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon. guess it will help not to be paying Junior still...there's about 25-30 million being spent on former players.

08-13-2016, 07:19 PM	#34
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II The man's got a family to feed........pay the man so his kids can eat. I see and appreciate your sarcasm. But in all honesty, the CBA mandates those dollars be paid to players. From: NFL halfway to $25B goal - SportsBusiness Daily \| SportsBusiness Journal \| SportsBusiness Daily Global ... the NFL will be paying players $6.4 billion in 2016. Under terms of the NFL collective-bargaining agreement, players get between 47 percent and 48 percent of nearly all revenue — so across the 32 teams, that computes to between $13.3 and $13.6 billion in league revenue for the coming year. That revenue has increased by 60% since 2010. All of this undergirds the fact that this contract isn't really about the money. QBs like Luck, Palmer, Brady, Eli Manning, and the like are getting similar money. The contract is about the commitment to a Super Bowl winning, 1st ballot HOF lock, QB that is 38 years old. It is about not being able to allocate those dollars elsewhere and the risk that Brees may not continue to play way above his pay grade. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

08-13-2016, 08:05 PM	#35
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,173	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by WillSaints81 Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon. And your point is?

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08-13-2016, 08:11 PM	#36
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,173	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by spkb25 guess it will help not to be paying Junior still...there's about 25-30 million being spent on former players. Not even close. After this season there is only $1.3 million in dead money remaining against the cap. Everything but $1.3M for Browner and $1,000 for Jack Tapp remains. That is no longer any excuse. The Saints are going to be a great cap shape moving forward. They could pay Brees $40M per year if they wanted and still be fine. SaintFanInATLHELL and spkb25 like this.

08-13-2016, 10:02 PM	#37
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by WillSaints81 Just so people realize, it's gonna be time to pay Cooks soon. Originally Posted by AsylumGuido And your point is? The point seems to be if that if the Saints pay Brees, then there will not be money available to pay Cooks. But it misses a few key points: 1. Cooks has a 5th year option. So he won't be a free agent until 2019. 2. It's likely that Brees' next contract will be 3 years. So there will be no overlap. 3. most importantly, as I stated in my other post, NFL revenue and therefore the salary cap is going to continue to skyrocket. According to this site: http://salarycapcrunch.com/projectin...16-20-seasons/ By the 2019 season the salary cap will be pushing $180 million. Bottom line is that the NFL is essentially a money tree as long as you don't have a long string of bad picks in free agency. SFIAH AsylumGuido likes this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

08-14-2016, 02:01 AM	#38
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Anyone who thought that the holdup was rookie contracts are whatever are operating with flawed assumptions. The two flawed assumptions that I've consistently seen over the last 6 months: 1. That this is some type of restructure that the team controls. It's not. It's a negotiation for a new contract. It's just that the Saints can do the extension now because Brees is under contract until next March. After that all bets are off. 2. That Brees is going to see this from a Saints Fan perspective. So somehow the option of accepting a low ball offer, or that there's no way he's going to play elsewhere are part of the equation. This is going to be Brees' last major contract. Up until this moment he is playing at an elite level. He is worth every penny of market value and has 10+ years of Hall of Fame level evidence to show for it. There is nothing easy about this. Brees' last contract was $100 million, $60 million guaranteed. We all see the $30 million cap number for this year as the residual of that contract. The next one is going to average $25 million a year with much of it guaranteed. That's a tough pill to swallow for the Saints. The problem isn't that it's a blank check. The problem is that market rate seems like a blank check. Just think about the fact that Luck signed for 6 years/ $140 million/ $47 million guaranteed coming off a dismal season where he missed more than half the season. Where Von Miller, who isn't even a QB, just got $70 million in guaranteed dollars. That's the market. If the Saints choose not to pay it, some other team certainly will. I agree to a point. As long as there is a clear understanding that a fair deal for the player is going to have to near market rate, and that the guaranteed money will need to be upped in order to shorten the contract length. Brees isn't likely to get a Luck Type contract because few believe he'll be here 5 or 6 more years after 2016 to play. That's moving into George Blanda territory. Pretty much if a 3 year contract is on the table, then $70-$75 million is the number, and it'll likely have to be all (or nearly all) guaranteed. As for the money for the rest of the squad, Loomis has been playing the accounting game based on the fact that the cap is going to keep rising. Brees money hasn't kept the Saints from outlaying dollars to Byrd, or Fleener, or fixing Westbank's contract. And that cap is going to keep growing. In fact the Saints will likely save over $5 million on this year's cap if they get a deal done as Brees' cap hit is at $30 million. An extension can put $40 million in Brees pocket and lower the cap to under $25 million at the same time. Finally, be sure that stadium dollars are not the driving engine for paying the salaries of players. The vast bulk of the dollars are from TV contracts. And expect those contracts to keep pushing the cap, and player salaries because NFL football is like printing money for these networks and their advertisers. SFIAH I'm well aware of market value. It's been discussed for years and years, and is a secret to no one, at this point. But market "value" is mostly a residual consequence of teams being desperate and over paying. Once they over pay, the bar is set. And when that happens every decent QB, not just the elite, want to negotiate at or above that number, because the precedent is already set that teams will do anything to have stability at the QB position. Neither Drew nor any other of these guys with 100 million plus contracts have actually "earned" that money. Nothing they do is that important when you compare it to other jobs around the world. So I get highly annoyed by this idea that the team owes Drew something extra because market value has risen since his last deal. They don't owe him anything, he has made plenty. But I get it from his perspective that he can't just take a low ball offer when he could make more elsewhere. So I'm not gonna toilet paper his house if he should leave. It's business. But the Saints have to be reasonable. They can't pay a guy his age like he's 25. I hear what you are saying about the cap rising, and I have heard that many times from people defending Loomis' tactics. You mentioned a couple players whom the team has signed, but the problem is it's always just a player here, and a player there, each year. I'll admit that I wanted Byrd before he came here, but when I actually saw the contract I was blown away. It was extremely ill-advised to put that much into one player with as many problems as they needed to address on defense. There never seems to be enough money to go around in free agency. And when they do sign people, it's usually a bad move. I think they over paid for Fleener, for example, but that's just my opinion. It's hard to build through the draft alone. There are so many busts. You need to have a few proven commodities. Many of the key players who were on the '09 team were not drafted by the Saints. For the past several years Loomis has been deferring money, which has only served to keep the team out of the penalty. I don't consider that very smart business.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

08-14-2016, 02:17 AM	#39
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Not even close. After this season there is only $1.3 million in dead money remaining against the cap. Everything but $1.3M for Browner and $1,000 for Jack Tapp remains. That is no longer any excuse. The Saints are going to be a great cap shape moving forward. They could pay Brees $40M per year if they wanted and still be fine. Really? 40 million, and still be fine? Taking that comment at face value is completely unrealistic, for one. But if it were true, then what now do you suppose is the holdup? I'm not even concerned about him leaving. I'm more curious to see how much meat will be left on the bone when his deal is done. But if they can pay him THAT much, without even having a problem, then what would be the reason to stall? Clearly it isn't that simple. I'm almost convinced that he could actually leave and some would still insist they know what's going on, and deny that there is any actual issue with the negotiations.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

08-14-2016, 01:26 PM	#40
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Pay Brees! I believe if we don't have a deep, deep playoff run with Brees under C this season then he's not going to be here next season. Another 7-9 or even a 9-7 isn't going to cut it. Could be the FO is waiting to see how things go. jeanpierre likes this.

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