Pay Brees!

spkb25 · 08-14-2016, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Just saw you went to the same place that I did. It is plain as day to anyone that understands basic economics. Every commodity is always worth exactly what the consumer is willing to pay. In the NFL the consumer is the team owner. We are simply customers of that consumer's business. We should have no more concern in what a player gets paid than we would be concerned about what the lady that dry cleans our pants makes.

Why can't people understand something so basic?

because they focus on how they think things should be

QBREES9 · 08-14-2016, 05:11 PM

For the Love of GOD, pay BREES.

spkb25 · 08-14-2016, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Yeah, okay, and we haven't seen sacks like this in forty years; did that hurt? Don't worry, Drew, have a Snickers...

And I'll remind y'all, Brees, who never misses games, missed a game last season...What's the over/under this season?

Look, he's paid, the cap hit is done and there's absolutely no need to do an extension until after a detailed evaluation of the upcoming season can be done...

one game when most would have missed several, good point. Thanks for the help!!

Danno · 08-14-2016, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by QBREES9

For the Love of GOD, pay BREES.

Pay him what?

lee909 · 08-14-2016, 05:40 PM

Monkey nuts

SaintFanInATLHELL · 08-14-2016, 06:22 PM

I know there are other responses that match this. I thought I had posted this before I left out. Posting anyway.

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I'm well aware of market value. It's been discussed for years and years, and is a secret to no one, at this point. But market "value" is mostly a residual consequence of teams being desperate and over paying. Once they over pay, the bar is set. And when that happens every decent QB, not just the elite, want to negotiate at or above that number, because the precedent is already set that teams will do anything to have stability at the QB position.

That coupled with the available pool of money is what defined the market.

Neither Drew nor any other of these guys with 100 million plus contracts have actually "earned" that money. Nothing they do is that important when you compare it to other jobs around the world. So I get highly annoyed by this idea that the team owes Drew something extra because market value has risen since his last deal. They don't owe him anything, he has made plenty. But I get it from his perspective that he can't just take a low ball offer when he could make more elsewhere. So I'm not gonna toilet paper his house if he should leave. It's business. But the Saints have to be reasonable. They can't pay a guy his age like he's 25.

I disagree about "earned". The value of any good or service is strictly defined by what people are willing to pay for it. It's the reason that the highest paid employee in virtually every state government is the high-profile football coach.

Brees does a job in a nearly $14 billion a year market that has less than 10,000 employees at a level that less than 5 people on this planet can do. Now is it fair that the NFL has that market size? Probably not. But has Brees earned his share of the market? Absolutely.

And you are asking the correct question. You have a guy that is far outproducing all the 25 year olds that are getting paid more than he is. The desperate teams in the market will pay to get the type of stability we've had at the QB position for the last decade.

I hear what you are saying about the cap rising, and I have heard that many times from people defending Loomis' tactics. You mentioned a couple players whom the team has signed, but the problem is it's always just a player here, and a player there, each year. I'll admit that I wanted Byrd before he came here, but when I actually saw the contract I was blown away. It was extremely ill-advised to put that much into one player with as many problems as they needed to address on defense.

So that's the value choice that each and every GM has to make. The system is set up with cost controls for the first 5 years of the contract after the draft and an open market afterwords. Players who are extremely productive before free agency build a potential value that can be tapped on the second contract. Teams always make the value proposition that the production will continue and match the value of the dollars. Sometimes it works (Brees, Jordan, Ingram) and sometimes it doesn't (Byrd, Gallette, up until now Spiller). And the Saints will have make more of these choices in the future (Cooks, Breaux). And sometimes I think the team just takes a flyer where the value of the contract doesn't match the previous production and there is a hope that the future production will in fact pan out. As of today I put Fleener in that category.

There never seems to be enough money to go around in free agency. And when they do sign people, it's usually a bad move. I think they over paid for Fleener, for example, but that's just my opinion. It's hard to build through the draft alone. There are so many busts. You need to have a few proven commodities. Many of the key players who were on the '09 team were not drafted by the Saints.

For the past several years Loomis has been deferring money, which has only served to keep the team out of the penalty. I don't consider that very smart business.

Deferring the money is the teams hedge against bad decisions in theory. All organizations are only on the hook for guaranteed money. So pushing a chunk of money in the future allows for further evaluation into the next contract as to make decision of whether to continue to pay or not.

It has to be balanced against players wanting their money up front. The NFL is the only pro league that has deferred non guaranteed contracts. When Lebron signed his 3 year $100 million contract this month, he's going to get that money whether or not he ever steps foot on the court for Cleveland ever again. It's all guaranteed. You can see the failures of that model with Kobe as an example. His last contract paid him I believe $24 million/year over a number of years, many of which he simply did not play. That contract in the NFL would be structured as up front guaranteed money, bonus payments contingent on being on the team, and unguaranteed salary, which simply isn't paid when the player is cut.

We'll see a sample of this with Byrd next year. He'll either restructure, or he will be cut because it'll cost the team more to keep him than to cut him.

But at the end of the day, this is the chess match of the NFL. Teams like the Patriots tend to cut most of their high profile people the year before they come into big money and continue their success with getting and developing young talent. Other clubs are a continual string of poor choices. The Saints have been hit and miss. But understand it's rare that someone becomes a Hall of Famer with their second or third club. Brees has been nothing but money since 2006. So my opinion is that the title of this thread is absolutely correct.

SFIAH

44Champs · 08-14-2016, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

I believe if we don't have a deep, deep playoff run with Brees under C this season then he's not going to be here next season. Another 7-9 or even a 9-7 isn't going to cut it. Could be the FO is waiting to see how things go.

Please expound on your point as to why that would be. Brees isnt the reason why we didnt make the playoffs and had back to back 7-9 seasons. He's the reason why we're still a contender every year.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

SaintFanInATLHELL · 08-14-2016, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Yeah, okay, and we haven't seen sacks like this in forty years; did that hurt? Don't worry, Drew, have a Snickers...

And I'll remind y'all, Brees, who never misses games, missed a game last season...What's the over/under this season?

Look, he's paid, the cap hit is done and there's absolutely no need to do an extension until after a detailed evaluation of the upcoming season can be done...

Unfortunately that logic doesn't fly for a couple of reasons:

1. Contracts for high profile players are not a strict "what have you done for me lately..." situation. Most often it is tapping the built up potential of past performance. Brees has already outplayed his contract... twice. He does not deserve frankly the disrespect of needing to be evaluated at this point in his career.

2. After the season it's no longer an extension. After the season, Drew Brees is a free agent who's services are available on the open market. And the Saints cannot afford to franchise him at $43 million for a single season with the entire cap hit in that year.

Now the Saints can certainly decide that they cannot afford the market value of a soon to be HOF QB and go in a different direction. And that's perfectly reasonable. Green Bay did this with Farve not too terribly long ago. But don't get it twisted and think that the Saints have any leverage in this situation. They don't. So it's simple. Since Brees and his team have given a deadline of the beginning of the season to get this done, the deadline is fast approaching. The Saints need to make the decision they are going to keep Brees and for all intents and purposes break the bank, or decide not to do it and be satisfied with letting the best QB the organization has ever had (and I posit may ever have) go. Options like "let's evaluate and decide" or "let's offer less than market value" are simply not options. If this isn't done by September 11th, we all need to start thinking about other options at the QB position.

I can see that some of you do not find that to be very fair. But it's reality. What I really want to know is exactly what options for a starting QB for 2017 for the Saints are if Brees ends up elsewhere? Because that's the reality if this doesn't get done by the first week of September. And what I've seen so far, the Saints do not have a future HOF QB sitting on the bench like Green Bay did when they let Farve go. Or a #1 pick of a once in a generation QB like Indy when they let Manning go.

SFIAH

halloween 65 · 08-14-2016, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by 44Champs

Please expound on your point as to why that would be. Brees isnt the reason why we didnt make the playoffs and had back to back 7-9 seasons. He's the reason why we're still a contender every year.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

I'll try. If the Saints, which I believe is into the top teir in paying for the entire team has gone 7-9 the last 2 seasons with a top paid qb( I know since his last contract he's not the #1 top paid qb. today) going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7, or 10-6 would be the same thing as paying out top dollar for Brees on a 2-14, 3-13, 4-12 team, makes entirely no since. Losing is losing, so going another direction should happen sooner than later. I don't blame Brees for not making the playoffs but why "pay the man" a huge contract if we're a stellar team. It would hurt down the road again.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 08-14-2016, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Pay him what?

The minimum that will keep him here instead of seeking a contract on the open market. I'd start with 3 years, $72 million, all guaranteed. The $24 million a year isn't absolute top dollar. But no NFL player has ever gotten a 100% guaranteed contract either. That may offer Brees enough stability to convince him to stay.

Note that the $24 million is both less than the $30 million cap hit he currently has and nearly half of the $43 million required to franchise him next year.

The bottom line is that Brees (and every other NFL player) want the stability of years and guaranteed money. NFL owners and GM want the flexibility to renegotiate dollars and the ability to cut the player before the end of the contract for poor performance. In the situation where the end of the contract will be for a player in his early 40s, keeping the years down is probably the critical item. But the only way to get that concession is to up the guaranteed money.

You could see this with the negotiation on the Von Miller contract this year. Both sides had agreed on the principal numbers ($114 million over 6 years). Denver offered only $40 million in guaranteed money in their initial offer. Only by pushing it to nearly $70 million guaranteed were they able to get the deal done. The reason is that the guaranteed money is the only real money in the contract. Every player and every GM knows that as soon as the cap payout is less than the upcoming remaining unguaranteed salary, that the contract in terms of the player is threatened. Upping the guaranteed money pushing that time further back into the contract. A fully guaranteed contract pushes it to the end of the contract.

So Brees, and rightly so, will resist attempts to build soft money into the contract as it threatens its stability. And he, and all of us should, know that he can dictate terms in the open market. That contract will likely be above market value, above 75% guaranteed, and have an extended number of years so that the club can spread out the cap hit.Think along the lines of 6 years $150 million, $110 million guaranteed. That's why I keep saying that if Brees agrees to a 3 or 4 year extension around $25 million a year, it ends up being a bargain for the Saints relative to the market.

So up the guaranteed money, limit the years, and try to get the total value as small as possible. That's the formula for getting this done IMHO.

SFIAH

08-14-2016, 05:10 PM	#51
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,101	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Just saw you went to the same place that I did. It is plain as day to anyone that understands basic economics. Every commodity is always worth exactly what the consumer is willing to pay. In the NFL the consumer is the team owner. We are simply customers of that consumer's business. We should have no more concern in what a player gets paid than we would be concerned about what the lady that dry cleans our pants makes. Why can't people understand something so basic? because they focus on how they think things should be SaintFanInATLHELL likes this.

08-14-2016, 05:11 PM	#52
QBREES9 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Haven Ct Posts: 23,985	Re: Pay Brees! For the Love of GOD, pay BREES. spkb25 likes this.

08-14-2016, 05:11 PM	#53
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,101	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by jeanpierre Yeah, okay, and we haven't seen sacks like this in forty years; did that hurt? Don't worry, Drew, have a Snickers... And I'll remind y'all, Brees, who never misses games, missed a game last season...What's the over/under this season? Look, he's paid, the cap hit is done and there's absolutely no need to do an extension until after a detailed evaluation of the upcoming season can be done... one game when most would have missed several, good point. Thanks for the help!! AsylumGuido likes this.

08-14-2016, 05:14 PM	#54
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by QBREES9 For the Love of GOD, pay BREES. Pay him what?

08-14-2016, 05:40 PM	#55
lee909 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,809 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Pay Brees! Monkey nuts

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08-14-2016, 06:22 PM	#56
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Pay Brees! I know there are other responses that match this. I thought I had posted this before I left out. Posting anyway. Originally Posted by burningmetal I'm well aware of market value. It's been discussed for years and years, and is a secret to no one, at this point. But market "value" is mostly a residual consequence of teams being desperate and over paying. Once they over pay, the bar is set. And when that happens every decent QB, not just the elite, want to negotiate at or above that number, because the precedent is already set that teams will do anything to have stability at the QB position. That coupled with the available pool of money is what defined the market. Neither Drew nor any other of these guys with 100 million plus contracts have actually "earned" that money. Nothing they do is that important when you compare it to other jobs around the world. So I get highly annoyed by this idea that the team owes Drew something extra because market value has risen since his last deal. They don't owe him anything, he has made plenty. But I get it from his perspective that he can't just take a low ball offer when he could make more elsewhere. So I'm not gonna toilet paper his house if he should leave. It's business. But the Saints have to be reasonable. They can't pay a guy his age like he's 25. I disagree about "earned". The value of any good or service is strictly defined by what people are willing to pay for it. It's the reason that the highest paid employee in virtually every state government is the high-profile football coach. Brees does a job in a nearly $14 billion a year market that has less than 10,000 employees at a level that less than 5 people on this planet can do. Now is it fair that the NFL has that market size? Probably not. But has Brees earned his share of the market? Absolutely. And you are asking the correct question. You have a guy that is far outproducing all the 25 year olds that are getting paid more than he is. The desperate teams in the market will pay to get the type of stability we've had at the QB position for the last decade. I hear what you are saying about the cap rising, and I have heard that many times from people defending Loomis' tactics. You mentioned a couple players whom the team has signed, but the problem is it's always just a player here, and a player there, each year. I'll admit that I wanted Byrd before he came here, but when I actually saw the contract I was blown away. It was extremely ill-advised to put that much into one player with as many problems as they needed to address on defense. So that's the value choice that each and every GM has to make. The system is set up with cost controls for the first 5 years of the contract after the draft and an open market afterwords. Players who are extremely productive before free agency build a potential value that can be tapped on the second contract. Teams always make the value proposition that the production will continue and match the value of the dollars. Sometimes it works (Brees, Jordan, Ingram) and sometimes it doesn't (Byrd, Gallette, up until now Spiller). And the Saints will have make more of these choices in the future (Cooks, Breaux). And sometimes I think the team just takes a flyer where the value of the contract doesn't match the previous production and there is a hope that the future production will in fact pan out. As of today I put Fleener in that category. There never seems to be enough money to go around in free agency. And when they do sign people, it's usually a bad move. I think they over paid for Fleener, for example, but that's just my opinion. It's hard to build through the draft alone. There are so many busts. You need to have a few proven commodities. Many of the key players who were on the '09 team were not drafted by the Saints. For the past several years Loomis has been deferring money, which has only served to keep the team out of the penalty. I don't consider that very smart business. Deferring the money is the teams hedge against bad decisions in theory. All organizations are only on the hook for guaranteed money. So pushing a chunk of money in the future allows for further evaluation into the next contract as to make decision of whether to continue to pay or not. It has to be balanced against players wanting their money up front. The NFL is the only pro league that has deferred non guaranteed contracts. When Lebron signed his 3 year $100 million contract this month, he's going to get that money whether or not he ever steps foot on the court for Cleveland ever again. It's all guaranteed. You can see the failures of that model with Kobe as an example. His last contract paid him I believe $24 million/year over a number of years, many of which he simply did not play. That contract in the NFL would be structured as up front guaranteed money, bonus payments contingent on being on the team, and unguaranteed salary, which simply isn't paid when the player is cut. We'll see a sample of this with Byrd next year. He'll either restructure, or he will be cut because it'll cost the team more to keep him than to cut him. But at the end of the day, this is the chess match of the NFL. Teams like the Patriots tend to cut most of their high profile people the year before they come into big money and continue their success with getting and developing young talent. Other clubs are a continual string of poor choices. The Saints have been hit and miss. But understand it's rare that someone becomes a Hall of Famer with their second or third club. Brees has been nothing but money since 2006. So my opinion is that the title of this thread is absolutely correct. SFIAH spkb25 and AsylumGuido like this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

08-14-2016, 06:32 PM	#57
44Champs Site Donor Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,589	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by halloween 65 I believe if we don't have a deep, deep playoff run with Brees under C this season then he's not going to be here next season. Another 7-9 or even a 9-7 isn't going to cut it. Could be the FO is waiting to see how things go. Please expound on your point as to why that would be. Brees isnt the reason why we didnt make the playoffs and had back to back 7-9 seasons. He's the reason why we're still a contender every year. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
44Champs Site Donor Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,589

08-14-2016, 06:43 PM	#58
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by jeanpierre Yeah, okay, and we haven't seen sacks like this in forty years; did that hurt? Don't worry, Drew, have a Snickers... And I'll remind y'all, Brees, who never misses games, missed a game last season...What's the over/under this season? Look, he's paid, the cap hit is done and there's absolutely no need to do an extension until after a detailed evaluation of the upcoming season can be done... Unfortunately that logic doesn't fly for a couple of reasons: 1. Contracts for high profile players are not a strict "what have you done for me lately..." situation. Most often it is tapping the built up potential of past performance. Brees has already outplayed his contract... twice. He does not deserve frankly the disrespect of needing to be evaluated at this point in his career. 2. After the season it's no longer an extension. After the season, Drew Brees is a free agent who's services are available on the open market. And the Saints cannot afford to franchise him at $43 million for a single season with the entire cap hit in that year. Now the Saints can certainly decide that they cannot afford the market value of a soon to be HOF QB and go in a different direction. And that's perfectly reasonable. Green Bay did this with Farve not too terribly long ago. But don't get it twisted and think that the Saints have any leverage in this situation. They don't. So it's simple. Since Brees and his team have given a deadline of the beginning of the season to get this done, the deadline is fast approaching. The Saints need to make the decision they are going to keep Brees and for all intents and purposes break the bank, or decide not to do it and be satisfied with letting the best QB the organization has ever had (and I posit may ever have) go. Options like "let's evaluate and decide" or "let's offer less than market value" are simply not options. If this isn't done by September 11th, we all need to start thinking about other options at the QB position. I can see that some of you do not find that to be very fair. But it's reality. What I really want to know is exactly what options for a starting QB for 2017 for the Saints are if Brees ends up elsewhere? Because that's the reality if this doesn't get done by the first week of September. And what I've seen so far, the Saints do not have a future HOF QB sitting on the bench like Green Bay did when they let Farve go. Or a #1 pick of a once in a generation QB like Indy when they let Manning go. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

08-14-2016, 07:05 PM	#59
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by 44Champs Please expound on your point as to why that would be. Brees isnt the reason why we didnt make the playoffs and had back to back 7-9 seasons. He's the reason why we're still a contender every year. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk I'll try. If the Saints, which I believe is into the top teir in paying for the entire team has gone 7-9 the last 2 seasons with a top paid qb( I know since his last contract he's not the #1 top paid qb. today) going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7, or 10-6 would be the same thing as paying out top dollar for Brees on a 2-14, 3-13, 4-12 team, makes entirely no since. Losing is losing, so going another direction should happen sooner than later. I don't blame Brees for not making the playoffs but why "pay the man" a huge contract if we're a stellar team. It would hurt down the road again.

08-14-2016, 07:15 PM	#60
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Pay Brees! Originally Posted by Danno Pay him what? The minimum that will keep him here instead of seeking a contract on the open market. I'd start with 3 years, $72 million, all guaranteed. The $24 million a year isn't absolute top dollar. But no NFL player has ever gotten a 100% guaranteed contract either. That may offer Brees enough stability to convince him to stay. Note that the $24 million is both less than the $30 million cap hit he currently has and nearly half of the $43 million required to franchise him next year. The bottom line is that Brees (and every other NFL player) want the stability of years and guaranteed money. NFL owners and GM want the flexibility to renegotiate dollars and the ability to cut the player before the end of the contract for poor performance. In the situation where the end of the contract will be for a player in his early 40s, keeping the years down is probably the critical item. But the only way to get that concession is to up the guaranteed money. You could see this with the negotiation on the Von Miller contract this year. Both sides had agreed on the principal numbers ($114 million over 6 years). Denver offered only $40 million in guaranteed money in their initial offer. Only by pushing it to nearly $70 million guaranteed were they able to get the deal done. The reason is that the guaranteed money is the only real money in the contract. Every player and every GM knows that as soon as the cap payout is less than the upcoming remaining unguaranteed salary, that the contract in terms of the player is threatened. Upping the guaranteed money pushing that time further back into the contract. A fully guaranteed contract pushes it to the end of the contract. So Brees, and rightly so, will resist attempts to build soft money into the contract as it threatens its stability. And he, and all of us should, know that he can dictate terms in the open market. That contract will likely be above market value, above 75% guaranteed, and have an extended number of years so that the club can spread out the cap hit.Think along the lines of 6 years $150 million, $110 million guaranteed. That's why I keep saying that if Brees agrees to a 3 or 4 year extension around $25 million a year, it ends up being a bargain for the Saints relative to the market. So up the guaranteed money, limit the years, and try to get the total value as small as possible. That's the formula for getting this done IMHO. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

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