Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

BlackandBlue · 03-21-2005, 03:33 PM

Heh hehh heheh, here\'s the thing, I agreed with you in this thread, yet you still come after me. I hate to see how you treat your close friends.

saintswhodi · 03-21-2005, 03:44 PM

You agreed with me early on, heck we both agreed. I thought we were having some fun here. I still consider you a bud.

yasoon · 03-21-2005, 04:57 PM

OK....a few things here. (And I\'ll try not to get you going whodi.)

I think Kool was saying with regard to Horn and the playoffs and being 8-8: If you have a solid performer at a certain position and there are other needs to address (which there are) AND you can get the guy at something resembling market value....you keep the guy and attempt to address your other needs. With Horn....I think we all know we have a solid receiver who comes to play and runs his mouth too much. I think Horn is the least of our problems and that\'s why I\'ve been amazed at all the dialogue of late.
Last year\'s problems:
Run D (not addressed)
Pass D (hopefully getting better)
Pass blocking (ditto)
LB (not addressed)
Safety (gotta think we\'re better)
Run Blocking (Mayberry....my saviour? I hope)
Mike McCarthy (gone...hopefully better now)

None of these problems has to do with Horn. So, why should his name come up when the \"why we missed the playoffs\" argument ensues? If anything, he made every play he was called on to make down the stretch.

Look at Plax\'s contract and tell Joe Horn he\'s crazy for wanting more money. I don\'t approve of him calling out the GM, but man....put yourself in his shoes and see how you would feel if a guy who can double his catches AND add twenty to reach what you put up the year before gets that kind of cheese. It\'s human nature to notice that kind of stuff.

Another thing....I\'ve never understood people who want the team to do poorly to help out in the draft. I\'m a Saints fan, I root for them every Sunday. I\'ll take 8-8 any day over 4-12. Truth be told, we got hosed out of the playoffs with some fuzzy tiebreaker garbage.

Also, is 4-12 really a guarantee of improvement? Especially with these guys running a draft board. Talk to the cards, bengals, and browns about getting better by being bad. Quality picks can be made in the middle of the 1st as well. That\'s more a product of solid scouting and drafting than it is being bad the year before. Look the LA Clippers.....in the lottery every year and they just keep on sucking.

Now....I agree that 8-8 doesn\'t always mean that you\'re close with personnel being what it is. You can lose a couple of key guys and make a bad FA signing and go in the tank fast. On the flip side, every year there are a couple of teams that have a huge improvement over the year before. This year the Falcons and Chargers went up while the Chiefs,Titans, and Cowboys went down. Count on this....there will be bigtime risers and fallers in \'05 and there will be those that stay the same.
(The chargers did NOT have the same team in \'04. Antonio Gates came out of nowhere and Drew Brees came into his own, making LT even more effective)

As usual, the Saints are a special case. You will be hard pressed to find a team that keeps their record so close to the same year in and year out over the last few. In hindsight, would I have preferred to go to the playoffs every other year for the last few, misxing in a couple of 5-11\'s? Yes...looking back I would.
The problem with this team is that consistent mediocrity in the NFL is almost as hard to achieve as consistent greatness. That\'s what makes some Saints fans even more frustrated. We have been 1-2 plays away from the playoffs for too long now. It makes you think that a nice LB, safety,OT...whatever will get you to the tourney. Problem is.....it may require a new braintrust.
I firmly believe that there are a couple of coaches who would have had these players in the playoffs at least 3 out of the last 5 years....but I digress.

Relating individual players to the playoffs doesn\'t always work.
Look at Ben.....how many weeks in a row did we hear what a winner he was? (and I like ben) Would we have heard that if Ben had our D? No. It would have been \"this rookie is striggling\". He got praise for being a winner when in reality he was on a run friendly team with a nasty D. I think AB would have taken that team to the playoffs as well.
Brees and Vick? They can take some credit for their team\'s success. Sadly, the QB is usually the diffence maker, unless you have a top 5 D, then you just ask the QB not to screw up.

saintswhodi · 03-21-2005, 05:23 PM

yasoon, I was gonna make a long drawn out reply, but why bother. I\'ll hit a few points.

AND you can get the guy at something resembling market value....you keep the guy and attempt to address your other needs

The original point was Horn demanded a top 5 contract and said he would hold out, which is not market value. I also explained how his change of heart changed my opinion.

None of these problems has to do with Horn. So, why should his name come up when the \"why we missed the playoffs\" argument ensues?

His name never came up in any \"Why we missed the playoffs\" debates from me. His name came up in a we can miss the playoffs without him just like we miss them with him when he demanded a top 5 contract. Goes back to that.

(The chargers did NOT have the same team in \'04. Antonio Gates came out of nowhere and Drew Brees came into his own, making LT even more effective)

Um, were Gates and Brees on the team last year? Then it was the same team. Some players on the SAME TEAM showed vast improvement. SO yes it was the same team.

As usual, the Saints are a special case. You will be hard pressed to find a team that keeps their record so close to the same year in and year out over the last few. In hindsight, would I have preferred to go to the playoffs every other year for the last few, misxing in a couple of 5-11\'s? Yes...looking back I would.

Agree whole-heartedly.

[Edited on 21/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

[Edited on 21/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

yasoon · 03-21-2005, 06:24 PM

His name never came up in any \"Why we missed the playoffs\" debates from me. His name came up in a we can miss the playoffs without him just like we miss them with him when he demanded a top 5 contract. Goes back to that.

Isn\'t that kinda the same thing though? The underlying inference is that Joe Horn will not help this team go to the playoffs. You\'re equating the non-playoff saints to the Saints with Joe Horn. Did he catch a 4th Qtr TD in 3 of the last 4 games? Were 2 of those game winners? Yes. Horn did everything he possibly could to get this team in this year. He was our most consistent performer all year. He could very well be a key ingredient to getting us there next year.

You\'ve taken this top five thing too literally. Is plax a top 5 receiver? He\'ll make more than Horn the next 2 years. Unless I have the numbers wrong.

Um, were Gates and Brees on the team last year? Then it was the same team. Some players on the SAME TEAM showed vast improvement. SO yes it was the same team.

Same people, totally different team. Did you think I didn\'t know they were in the league the year before? No NFL team is the SAME from one year to the next in the salary cap era. That was my point. Many changes in a team\'s performance are relative to things that happen behind the scenes and the environment being right.
You need to tone it down a bit. You\'re a little quick to jump all over people. Soften it up a bit. I can sling insults and act condescending with the best of em. That\'s not why I\'m here.

And I agreed with you on your 8-8 being closer than 4-12 point. The difference between winning and losing is so tight in this league that a 4 plays can literally be the difference between 4-12 and 8-8. However, I like to win, so I would rather have 8 than 4 and hope my team can get over the hump without the benefit of 10 draft positions. I mean, look at our last #6 pick...why would I want another one of those?

spkb25 · 03-21-2005, 08:04 PM

every player should be paid on what they produce. the only problem with that is that i dont think teams want to pay more to someone because they produced more then they thought they could. the reality is that if players are paid based on thier production the team is going to have to pay more money because players they signed for low contracts will need more money if they play well. if you want it one way you have to have it both ways

saintswhodi · 03-22-2005, 10:40 AM

Isn\'t that kinda the same thing though?

No it\'s not kinda even close to the same thing. You are trying to make it the same thing to fit your argument. It\'s not what I meant or said and I expressed that.

You\'ve taken this top five thing too literally. Is plax a top 5 receiver? He\'ll make more than Horn the next 2 years. Unless I have the numbers wrong.

So when a players says \"I want a top 5 contract and I will hold out to get it,\" I shouldn\'t take that literally? How can that be taken too literally when he SAID it. And what does Plax have to do with anything? He doesn\'t play for us. I don\'t care how much more money he gets than Joe Horn, that ain\'t gonna determine how much I would wanna pay JOE HORN.

Same people, totally different team. Did you think I didn\'t know they were in the league the year before? No NFL team is the SAME from one year to the next in the salary cap era. That was my point. Many changes in a team\'s performance are relative to things that happen behind the scenes and the environment being right.
You need to tone it down a bit. You\'re a little quick to jump all over people. Soften it up a bit. I can sling insults and act condescending with the best of em. That\'s not why I\'m here.

How did I jump all over you? By pointing out these were the SAME PLAYERS playing for the SAME TEAM? They didn\'t change coaches, owners, GMs, starting QB starting RB, NOTHING. They are were the same team with great improvement from their players. They made no changes to any key position whatsoever. Why do you wanna argue this point anyway? Seems like you are just looking for reasons to argue, maybe that\'s why the answer was curt? Improvement by the same players on the same team doesn\'t make them a new team, it makes them the same team with improvements.

I mean, look at our last #6 pick...why would I want another one of those?

Yeah, the Chargers picked Ryan Leaf, whatsoever were they thinking even trying with those high draft picks again. They shoulda packed it in and told the league, hey we don\'t wanna try anymore cause we picked a dud in leaf. Give our pick to someone else. Come on dude. The draft is a crap shoot for anyone. I would rather take my chances crap shooting top 5 than late teens if I am not gonna be in the playoffs anyway. You make it seem like we are the only team to ever pick a dud early, doesn\'t mean you stop hoping to land a gem.

03-21-2005, 03:33 PM	#61
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Should receivers get paid by thier stats? Heh hehh heheh, here\'s the thing, I agreed with you in this thread, yet you still come after me. I hate to see how you treat your close friends.

03-21-2005, 03:44 PM	#62
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Should receivers get paid by thier stats? You agreed with me early on, heck we both agreed. I thought we were having some fun here. I still consider you a bud.

03-21-2005, 04:57 PM	#63
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594	Should receivers get paid by thier stats? OK....a few things here. (And I\'ll try not to get you going whodi.) I think Kool was saying with regard to Horn and the playoffs and being 8-8: If you have a solid performer at a certain position and there are other needs to address (which there are) AND you can get the guy at something resembling market value....you keep the guy and attempt to address your other needs. With Horn....I think we all know we have a solid receiver who comes to play and runs his mouth too much. I think Horn is the least of our problems and that\'s why I\'ve been amazed at all the dialogue of late. Last year\'s problems: Run D (not addressed) Pass D (hopefully getting better) Pass blocking (ditto) LB (not addressed) Safety (gotta think we\'re better) Run Blocking (Mayberry....my saviour? I hope) Mike McCarthy (gone...hopefully better now) None of these problems has to do with Horn. So, why should his name come up when the \"why we missed the playoffs\" argument ensues? If anything, he made every play he was called on to make down the stretch. Look at Plax\'s contract and tell Joe Horn he\'s crazy for wanting more money. I don\'t approve of him calling out the GM, but man....put yourself in his shoes and see how you would feel if a guy who can double his catches AND add twenty to reach what you put up the year before gets that kind of cheese. It\'s human nature to notice that kind of stuff. Another thing....I\'ve never understood people who want the team to do poorly to help out in the draft. I\'m a Saints fan, I root for them every Sunday. I\'ll take 8-8 any day over 4-12. Truth be told, we got hosed out of the playoffs with some fuzzy tiebreaker garbage. Also, is 4-12 really a guarantee of improvement? Especially with these guys running a draft board. Talk to the cards, bengals, and browns about getting better by being bad. Quality picks can be made in the middle of the 1st as well. That\'s more a product of solid scouting and drafting than it is being bad the year before. Look the LA Clippers.....in the lottery every year and they just keep on sucking. Now....I agree that 8-8 doesn\'t always mean that you\'re close with personnel being what it is. You can lose a couple of key guys and make a bad FA signing and go in the tank fast. On the flip side, every year there are a couple of teams that have a huge improvement over the year before. This year the Falcons and Chargers went up while the Chiefs,Titans, and Cowboys went down. Count on this....there will be bigtime risers and fallers in \'05 and there will be those that stay the same. (The chargers did NOT have the same team in \'04. Antonio Gates came out of nowhere and Drew Brees came into his own, making LT even more effective) As usual, the Saints are a special case. You will be hard pressed to find a team that keeps their record so close to the same year in and year out over the last few. In hindsight, would I have preferred to go to the playoffs every other year for the last few, misxing in a couple of 5-11\'s? Yes...looking back I would. The problem with this team is that consistent mediocrity in the NFL is almost as hard to achieve as consistent greatness. That\'s what makes some Saints fans even more frustrated. We have been 1-2 plays away from the playoffs for too long now. It makes you think that a nice LB, safety,OT...whatever will get you to the tourney. Problem is.....it may require a new braintrust. I firmly believe that there are a couple of coaches who would have had these players in the playoffs at least 3 out of the last 5 years....but I digress. Relating individual players to the playoffs doesn\'t always work. Look at Ben.....how many weeks in a row did we hear what a winner he was? (and I like ben) Would we have heard that if Ben had our D? No. It would have been \"this rookie is striggling\". He got praise for being a winner when in reality he was on a run friendly team with a nasty D. I think AB would have taken that team to the playoffs as well. Brees and Vick? They can take some credit for their team\'s success. Sadly, the QB is usually the diffence maker, unless you have a top 5 D, then you just ask the QB not to screw up.
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594

03-21-2005, 05:23 PM	#64
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Should receivers get paid by thier stats? yasoon, I was gonna make a long drawn out reply, but why bother. I\'ll hit a few points. AND you can get the guy at something resembling market value....you keep the guy and attempt to address your other needs The original point was Horn demanded a top 5 contract and said he would hold out, which is not market value. I also explained how his change of heart changed my opinion. None of these problems has to do with Horn. So, why should his name come up when the \"why we missed the playoffs\" argument ensues? His name never came up in any \"Why we missed the playoffs\" debates from me. His name came up in a we can miss the playoffs without him just like we miss them with him when he demanded a top 5 contract. Goes back to that. (The chargers did NOT have the same team in \'04. Antonio Gates came out of nowhere and Drew Brees came into his own, making LT even more effective) Um, were Gates and Brees on the team last year? Then it was the same team. Some players on the SAME TEAM showed vast improvement. SO yes it was the same team. As usual, the Saints are a special case. You will be hard pressed to find a team that keeps their record so close to the same year in and year out over the last few. In hindsight, would I have preferred to go to the playoffs every other year for the last few, misxing in a couple of 5-11\'s? Yes...looking back I would. Agree whole-heartedly. [Edited on 21/3/2005 by saintswhodi] [Edited on 21/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

03-21-2005, 06:24 PM	#65
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594	Should receivers get paid by thier stats? His name never came up in any \"Why we missed the playoffs\" debates from me. His name came up in a we can miss the playoffs without him just like we miss them with him when he demanded a top 5 contract. Goes back to that. Isn\'t that kinda the same thing though? The underlying inference is that Joe Horn will not help this team go to the playoffs. You\'re equating the non-playoff saints to the Saints with Joe Horn. Did he catch a 4th Qtr TD in 3 of the last 4 games? Were 2 of those game winners? Yes. Horn did everything he possibly could to get this team in this year. He was our most consistent performer all year. He could very well be a key ingredient to getting us there next year. You\'ve taken this top five thing too literally. Is plax a top 5 receiver? He\'ll make more than Horn the next 2 years. Unless I have the numbers wrong. Um, were Gates and Brees on the team last year? Then it was the same team. Some players on the SAME TEAM showed vast improvement. SO yes it was the same team. Same people, totally different team. Did you think I didn\'t know they were in the league the year before? No NFL team is the SAME from one year to the next in the salary cap era. That was my point. Many changes in a team\'s performance are relative to things that happen behind the scenes and the environment being right. You need to tone it down a bit. You\'re a little quick to jump all over people. Soften it up a bit. I can sling insults and act condescending with the best of em. That\'s not why I\'m here. And I agreed with you on your 8-8 being closer than 4-12 point. The difference between winning and losing is so tight in this league that a 4 plays can literally be the difference between 4-12 and 8-8. However, I like to win, so I would rather have 8 than 4 and hope my team can get over the hump without the benefit of 10 draft positions. I mean, look at our last #6 pick...why would I want another one of those?
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594

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03-21-2005, 08:04 PM	#66
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,101	Should receivers get paid by thier stats? every player should be paid on what they produce. the only problem with that is that i dont think teams want to pay more to someone because they produced more then they thought they could. the reality is that if players are paid based on thier production the team is going to have to pay more money because players they signed for low contracts will need more money if they play well. if you want it one way you have to have it both ways

03-22-2005, 10:40 AM	#67
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Should receivers get paid by thier stats? Isn\'t that kinda the same thing though? No it\'s not kinda even close to the same thing. You are trying to make it the same thing to fit your argument. It\'s not what I meant or said and I expressed that. You\'ve taken this top five thing too literally. Is plax a top 5 receiver? He\'ll make more than Horn the next 2 years. Unless I have the numbers wrong. So when a players says \"I want a top 5 contract and I will hold out to get it,\" I shouldn\'t take that literally? How can that be taken too literally when he SAID it. And what does Plax have to do with anything? He doesn\'t play for us. I don\'t care how much more money he gets than Joe Horn, that ain\'t gonna determine how much I would wanna pay JOE HORN. Same people, totally different team. Did you think I didn\'t know they were in the league the year before? No NFL team is the SAME from one year to the next in the salary cap era. That was my point. Many changes in a team\'s performance are relative to things that happen behind the scenes and the environment being right. You need to tone it down a bit. You\'re a little quick to jump all over people. Soften it up a bit. I can sling insults and act condescending with the best of em. That\'s not why I\'m here. How did I jump all over you? By pointing out these were the SAME PLAYERS playing for the SAME TEAM? They didn\'t change coaches, owners, GMs, starting QB starting RB, NOTHING. They are were the same team with great improvement from their players. They made no changes to any key position whatsoever. Why do you wanna argue this point anyway? Seems like you are just looking for reasons to argue, maybe that\'s why the answer was curt? Improvement by the same players on the same team doesn\'t make them a new team, it makes them the same team with improvements. I mean, look at our last #6 pick...why would I want another one of those? Yeah, the Chargers picked Ryan Leaf, whatsoever were they thinking even trying with those high draft picks again. They shoulda packed it in and told the league, hey we don\'t wanna try anymore cause we picked a dud in leaf. Give our pick to someone else. Come on dude. The draft is a crap shoot for anyone. I would rather take my chances crap shooting top 5 than late teens if I am not gonna be in the playoffs anyway. You make it seem like we are the only team to ever pick a dud early, doesn\'t mean you stop hoping to land a gem.