bignic26

Danno, 4saintspirit I\'m glad that there are a few other rational people on this board with me.

It\'s sad that you can\'t even state an opinion about Joe Horn without being called a Horn Hater. Anytime anybody says anything about the guy some stat guy comes out of the woodwork with a bunch of stats comparing him to the top receivers. Shadow, how many times do I have to say this, Joe Horn is a great receiver! I know he\'s the best weapon we\'ve ever had! I know he puts up great numbers! But it\'s pretty shallow of you to think that just because he\'s the best we\'ve ever had somehow that makes him the the best WR in the league.

Most of the comments about Joe are very simple. Some don\'t feel like he\'s one of the top three receivers in the league. Some don\'t feel like he should get a top three, or even top five contract. Some don\'t feel like Joe has alot of class or that he\'s a good leader. But I have yet to see a post saying that Joe Horn isn\'t a good receiver. I think we\'re pretty much all in agreement on the fact that Joe is and has been a great player for our team. Everyone knows that he puts up very good stats.

But then some guy comes along and takes those simple comments and tries to twist them into us saying that Joe sucks. Joe doesn\'t suck as a football player! Anyone who says otherwise is either trying to get stuff started or simply doesn\'t have a clue. For the last time Joe is great! Just not as great as he thinks he is. Not as great as you guys think he is. And certainly not as great as Moss, T.O. or Marvin. Sure Moss and T.O. suck as people and have no class, but they are the two best receivers in this league period! Regardless of what your numbers say.

We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams

WhoDat

Some people just have a Brooks... er.... wait, what are we talking about??... oh yeah, I mean HORN agenda... yeah, that\'s it. Horn Haters! Why do you guys hate Joe Horn? LOL.


Here\'s a real interesting question: why do you guys think there is an inverse relationship b/w Horn and Brooks in terms of support amongst Saints fans? Those who tend to be \"pro-Horn\" (me), tend to be \"anti-Brooks.\" Those who are \"pro-Brooks\" (Billy), tend to be \"anti-Horn.\" Then there are guys like Danno who hate them both. Why do you think that is?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

saintswhodi

bignic, I am gonna warn you off of this one. shadow is as stubborn as a mule, and any argument you are gonna make is not gonna make a dent in how he sees thing. I don\'t know if shadow is a 60 year old vietnam vet who has seen it all and ain\'t listening to crap else, or is he is a stubborn 16 year old who just refuses to change his mind, but you might as well give up. I still love ya shadow, but it\'s true.

Danno

Hmmm, maybe you\'re on to something. I\'ve been highly critical of Deuce (which resulted in being pummelled about the head and neck mercilessly), Horn, Riley, and AB, Boo, McCarthy, O-line, playcalling, etc...

I think I just hate offense.

I think I\'d have made a good linebacker (6-0, 225), if it weren\'t for that lack of talent thingy... and a 4.9 40.

JKool

I\'m a little unclear on a few things, so maybe you guys can clear them up:

(1) What does Joe Horn shooting his mouth off about his contract have to do with his ability to play football? Other guys know that at contract time, you do what you can to get a good contract - surely, other PROFESSIONAL football players will get over what Horn said and get back to playing ball the minute the contract is signed.

(2) Joe should shut the f-up. Is there anyone who doesn\'t think that? On and off the field, he does stuff that hurts the team (penalties and general embarassment).

(3) With no other proven WRs, is there anyone who thinks we should just let Joe go (or maybe get a fancy puck-bag for him)? I\'m willing to bet that there isn\'t. Joe Horn\'s trade value can\'t be all that good this offseason; Edge is fetching a whoping 2nd round pick.

(4) A long term contract for Joe will lower his cap number THIS year. How great is that? What do we need the money for? The big-name guys we need are gone from FA (except maybe a corner).

(5) The deal I\'ve seen for Joe will make his cap number 5.5 mil in three years - now that is a lot for a 36 year old WR. However, if we just cut him, like people suggest, then our cap hit will be in the 3.5 mil range - even if he is not on the roster. Does that sound good?

(6) Does anyone really think a player is going to sign a contract for the minimum with a lot of incentives? I sure don\'t. There is a reason these things are called \"incentives\" and not \"pay\". This idea is a dream, IMO. Joe is not going to give the money back, and even if he does that won\'t help anyone but Benson, since we\'ll still be stuck with his cap number. Furthermore, incentive based contracts, I\'m sure have some calculation for the cap - and I\'m willing to bet that it comes out about the same.

In the end, I\'m ambivalent about Joe. I think that he is a good WR, and I certainly don\'t mind having him on this team. I think over the next two years he is worth more on the team than off it. However, he may be cap friendly this year, but that time will be ending soon. At any rate, there are way bigger problems on this team than WR - LB for example.

[Edited on 23/3/2005 by JKool]

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

bignic26

Exactly JKool. That\'s kinda like what I\'m thinking. Nobody is saying that we don\'t need Joe or that he\'s not good. All I\'m trying to say is that Joe isn\'t a top 3 receiver and he shouldn\'t be paid like one. If he keeps demanding that kind of money and if he won\'t be happy here unless he gets it, we need to maybe think about other options.

What are our options? Well let\'s take a look. 1. Trade him. I really don\'t think that would be the smartest thing to do this year. We don\'t have a replacement and with the current market the trade value just wouldn\'t be there. 2. Cut him. Again, no replacement. I\'ve said before that we should cut him and just take the cap hit, but why take the hit when we could just keep him. If he\'s not holding out and he\'s gonna play, then why not keep a pro bowl WR. 3. We could show Joe the money!!! Just not the money he wants. If he and the FO could meet half way on a reasonable contract, Joe could retire as a Saint. I think deep down we would all like to see that happen. No matter what we may say, deep down we all love Joe. :heartpump: :icon_bs:

We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams

Danno

Good post Kool...
Nothing. I\'m just tired of him shooting his mouth off period. Still like him as a player though.
Agreed. And its as likely as Loomis signing me to replace James Allen.
Only if it interferes with signing Bentley, Deuce and our draft picks.
Which is what sparked the entire re-negotiate topic, which eveolved into a how much is he worth debate.
We can always re-negotiate again, or if he flops just cut him and move on.
In a word, NO.
I am too. I don\'t think he worth what he claims, but he\'s worth more than he\'s getting now. There\'s is a figure both sides will be happy with. All the posturing is simply the game that must be played to set that point.

4saintspirit

Kools post and dannos response both are fairly accurate. Personally I do not see a relationship between Horn\'s mouth and his play or pay. While detrimental I do not think it has come to the point of becoming a cancer to our team. Nor do I think he should sign for little loaded with incentives -- BUT I also do not think he should get top 1 or 2 money in a guaranteed bonus all up front loaded. Give him a decent signing bonus (guaranteed money) for 1 year and spread the other bonuses over the remaing years -- that way he plays like a top 5 he gets a bonus like a top fiver -- if not he can become a salary cap casulty.

\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

WhoDat

Great post Kool. You\'re wrong, Joe is God, but otherwise good. LOL

shadowdrinker

\'\'As a matter of fact there are quite a few receivers who are better than Horn. The guy has lost it\'\' - Bignic

Like I said...Prove that statement...


\'\'Anytime anybody says anything about the guy some stat guy comes out of the woodwork with a bunch of stats comparing him to the top receivers.\'\' -- Bignic

How are you suppose to compare without the use of FACTS?

FACT is..Horn IS one of the top receivers in the League...He may fall this year..He may not, I doubt you have pshycic powers..So, How could you know without a doubt that He has \'\'lost it\'\'?

That\'s all I\'m saying...

How can you possibly have a discussion about Football without the use of Stats?...especially in a comparison scenario?


\'\'Joe doesn\'t suck as a football player! Anyone who says otherwise is either trying to get stuff started or simply doesn\'t have a clue.\'\' -- Bignic

But, You yourself said he has\'\'lost it\'\'...Whatever \'\'it\'\' implies, He has, according to you, somehow gotten worse, and He just had his best year ever...

[Edited on 23/3/2005 by shadowdrinker]