ScottyRo

Possibly. I\'m just pointing out that if they want to debate whether or not that distinction makes AB a \"great\" QB, that shouldn\'t be attributed to me.

I\'m sure most B&G members that have read my comments on AB recognize I\'m not a basher or a lover, but it doesn\'t take too many posts like this to be labled an AB lover.

I probably should have said something more like: I\'ve never been more confident in the Saints Offense to score late in a game to win than at any other time in Saints history.

Again, when you bring up the thing like you did with Emmitt, it seems that you think a statement that I have more confidence in AB in that situation implies that he\'s great at something. I\'m not implying anything. It\'s just a statement.

LKelley67

i don\'t neccesarily disagree scotty. it is more just the premise of the statement i find entertaining. we are talkin perhaps the worst franchise in nfl history that has only had one other legitimate strong qb! so he might be the best out of two in one aspect of the game. that is the humor of it to me. the panthers have never had another kicker, so damn, he is the best in their history. the point being about a narrow aspect would be more like saying, john kasay is the best onside kicker in carolina\'s history. now if you were the colts you could have some heavy handed debates about manning vs. unitas, or the 49ers with young, montana, brodie, and y.a. tittle.

so, i am not for debating the point only cuz it isn\'t much of a point with this team history. i guess it is good to find every ray of sunshine we can. as i type tho, memories of interceptions and fumbles at gut-check times, whether the last 2 minutes or not, seem to echo as well.

WhoDat

So then Horn is that sandlot player and Brooks is the consumate pro???

Saintfan - I\'m starting to believe that you don\'t really even believe AB is a good QB. I can\'t remember seeing you make an affirmative statement about his play that didn\'t involve undercutting someone else. You excel at deflecting blame from AB, but you do very little to show he is deserving of credit.

I guess if it\'s all the WRs and o-line\'s fault for AB\'s shortcomings, then, one could make the argument that his successes are their doing as well. In other words, Brooks is of zero value to the team and could be replaced with no effect.

Or is it your opinion that Brooks\' teammates don\'t help him they only hurt him? And how does he affect their play? LOL.... yeah there\'s an here.

I\'m not trying to take a shot at you man, I\'m really not. But why is it when you say Brooks to \"your kind\" the response you get is always immediate to talk about someone else? Can you make a case for AB based only on what AB has done? If not, what does that tell you?

IMO - no one ever doubted Archie was a great QB, and his supporting cast was muh much worse.


Scotty - please don\'t misconstrue my comments either. I never believed or suggested that your comments were meant to show you believe AB to be a great QB. Nor did I disagree. I was simply providing a REASON why I thought your statement was true.



[Edited on 8/4/2005 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

saintfan

I think Brooks is FAR more than good enough, and I\'ve said it a million times. I\'ve also NEVER tried to call him GREAT -- which I\'ve been accused of a million times. I defend Brooks when people try and blame him for our D\'s inability to stop people. When they blame the QB for the D\'s inability to stop a screen, for example, I step in. When they insinuate our O-Line is better than average and blame him for the line\'s inability to block to stop making stupid mistakes I defend him. When I see our WR\'s drop perfectly catchable passes (while other\'s make excuses for why they shouldn\'t be expected to catch those passes) I defend him. All I have EVER said about AB is that he\'s good enough and then some to take the Saints all the way. I thought it then and I think it now. Give him a decent o-line, and decent running game, more than one guy that can (a) catch and (b) run routes and a defense that can stop the other team more often than not -- and all in the same year -- and yeah, I think he can perform better than most QB\'s. I don\'t harp on the stupid plays because (a) he\'s not perfect and (b) he\'s far from being the only above average (or below) QB to ever have made one. I don\'t harp on his inability to relate well to the fans and media. I don\'t think there was some great conspiracy to keep him in the lineup and keep Jake out of it. Etc, etc, but you and you\'re kind keep right on bashing the guy. We all know the QB gets too much blame AND credit...or do we?

It appears you\'ve forgotten some of those old debates. I just don\'t have the energy anymore. Some of you simply are NOT going to give Brooks the same benefit or props you\'re willing to give to other players. After all, Jake NEARLY made the playoffs last year...this is seen as a credit...the Saints won their last four and also NEARLY made the playoffs, yet you justify the spin in a thousand different ways. I\'m not the guy defending Brooks by blaming others. I\'m the guy defending Brooks when he\'s held responsible for the mistakes of others. You CAN see the difference, can\'t you?

C'mon Man...

WhoDat

OK Saintfan... let\'s not talk about each other, let\'s talk about football, shall we?

I have a question for you: Aaron Brooks ranked 19th in QB rating in 2004. That is BELOW AVERAGE. You have stated that you believe some of Brooks\' troubles are results of offensive line woes and inconsistent WR play, correct?

How then do you justify these QBs performing better?

Byron Leftwich - His o-line was so-so in pass protection and his WRs aren\'t anywhere near as talented as ours. Jimmy Smith - their number one WR, didn\'t perform as well as Horn. Reggie Williams, their number two WR, did half of what Donte Stallworth did. Troy Edwards was a solid third - I\'m not sure of his numbers, but I\'d guess he was somewhere in the area of Pathon. Honestly, I don\'t know. Leftwich is younger, has less time in the system, an average o-line, and worse WRs. How could he be more efficient than Brooks?


Matt Hassleback - Matt was destroyed in the media for his inconsistency this year, and rightly so. His WRs may be more talented than the Saints, but they led the league in drops - the thing you accuse of WRs of doing all the time. In games I watched of the Seahawks I sw a lot of blitzing, which their o-line didn\'t handle well. Hassleback\'s performance wasn\'t exactly great. But he put up a better QB rating - what gives?

Here are the two really damning ones:

David Carr - David Carr? Seriously? AB couldn\'t be more efficient that David Carr? The Texans two biggest problem areas are offensive line and WR. They certainly don\'t have a Deuce in their backfield either. Carr is younger and on an expansion team - how did this guy outperform Brooks?

Kurt Warner - Seriously, was there a worse o-line in the league last year than the Giants\'? And is there a worse QB to deal with pressure than Kurt Warner? I reemed Warner early in the season for his boneheaded plays. I laughed when NY signed him and knew he\'d be killed behind that line. When he got pulled I thought it was well deserved... how in the hell did he manage to have a better QB rating that Aaron Brooks?

Other notables - Brian Greese was almost 30 points better than AB this season. Jake Delhomme, Billy Volek, Jake Plummer, Marc Bulger...



How do you reconcile this type of information with your assertion that AB suffers BECAUSE of the o-line and WRs? Or is AB as much at fault as they are?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

spkb25

im not going to argue over whether or not brooks is good. but he does have a lot of comebacks for us. he also has some bonehead plays to. he has all the potential in the world. i hope it all comes together for the whole team next year

saintfan

I see now you\'re stuck on QB rating. Is that the Stat you like these days? Surely you\'re aware of the fact that the QB rating has much to do with things out of the control of the QB. You DO realize that don\'t you? I like Billy\'s post from another thread regarding this QB rating...

I love how you pick a stat and then try and prove how sorry Brooks is due to it...you\'ve tried that before...last time you gave up and started moanin\' about his salary. Look man, I realize you think Brooks is the main reason the Saints haven\'t gone undefeated, and I disagree based on the poor play of LOTS of people on the team...you just like to focus on Brooks. Carry on man.

C'mon Man...

saintz08

The Saintfan shuffle .....


Leadership has its advantages ......

Sure , I love those comebacks . Brooks spends 3 quarters throwing the ball in the turf and fumbling it and then wakes up and leads a drive or two .

Sure you wont have the balls to touch this one .....

Drew Brees 2003 rating 67.5
Drew Brees 2004 rating 104.8

Brees pulls his head out in a contract year and the team goes from worst to first based upon it . That behind a make shift front line and a good runningback .

WhoDat

So in other words, no, you cannot justify how those other bad QBs with bad o-lines and WRs played better football than Aaron Brooks. That\'s what I thought.



And Billy\'s thread further proves the myopia with which the two of you seem to address this discussion. Never did I say that QB rating is a magic stat that translates into a trip to the Super Bowl. This is a classic misapplication of statistics, b/c Billy doesn\'t understand how to use them and you just piggyback that.

What\'s funny is that when I criticize Brooks, you guys point at every other player on the team. You argue that I say that AB is the only problem with the team, which I am not suggesting in any way shape or form. You cannot argue that he is a problem and you cannot make a case for him being even average. You can say he is, but neither of you have ever made an argument that didn\'t include cutting down other players to get there.

So when I use your own BS \"it\'s the line and WR\'s fault\" logic to show younger, less pampered, and less experienced QBs with worse o-line\'s and worse WRs on worse teams can have better QB ratings, what do you do?

Billy uses QB rating to suggest that the QB is the only reason a team makes the Super Bowl. Never did I suggest that - but it\'s funny that Billy is totally contradicting your, it\'s everyone else\'s fault argument to focus only on the QB. No, I just showed that AB is a below average QB - and you did nothing to disprove it.. b/c neither of you can.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

ScottyRo

How can a below average QB set so many Saints QB records or be on the verge thereof?