Riddle me this:?

WhoDat · 04-28-2005, 11:05 AM

Do you agree with cutting Sullivan outright?

Again, I agree 100% with Scotty. Sullivan DESERVES to be cut, but he should NOT be cut b/c of the affect on the team financially.

If Sullivan was getting paid what McPherson will this year, then I see no reason in him being given another shot. However he\'s not. He\'s getting paid a lot more. If he could be cut, given his current salary, with zero affect on the team, I would cut him in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, neither scenario is reality.

Do you think McPherson deserves a 10 million dollar signing bonus? Afterall, he does deserve the kind of shake Sullivan is getting right?

baronm · 04-28-2005, 11:50 AM

He made himself available for the draft. I\'m sure they talked to hiim before they made the pick. He was probably giving them the full line of how hard he was going to work.

Interesting. I don\'t agree with it. But it\'s interesting.

I\'ll ask this again... Do you blame Rickey Williams for making himself \"avaliable\" for the draft and the Saints giving up a WHOLE draft for him?

I never heard you or ANYone blame Ricky Wiliams for that. I\'ve heard Mike (Duh Coach) Ditka blamed, though.

So, we blame Ditka for giving up a whole draft for Rickey Williams but we blame Jonathan Sullivan for what Loomis and Haslett did?

Doesn\'t make a lot of sense to me?!

1. don\'t blame anyone for actions that are not there own-haz shouldn\'t have draft him that high...
2. do blame for actions that are their own...sully being lazy-he should be stiffly penalized...williams-he should be punished for his actions.

otherwise the logic of the arguement that is being made makes little sense.

GumboBC · 04-28-2005, 12:21 PM

Okay, guys, I have a better understanding of how everyone feels about Sullivan.

I just used the McPhearson/Sullivan comparison as a basis of disucssion.

I don\'t have anything against McPhearson being given another chance to get his football career on track. Or his life as far as that\'s concerned.

I\'ve heard many fans say Sully should\'t be given another chance. But I can\'t see ANY reason why Sully shouldn\'t be given another chance.

Sure, Sullivan is making a lot of money, but just because the guy is making a lot of money doesn\'t mean he doesn\'t deserve ONE more chance.

Hey, he\'s making a lot of money and he made a mistake. Why don\'t we burn him at the stake? That seems to be the attitude of many.

It\'s hurting the team very badly to have ALL that money invested in Jonathan Sullivan and the guy hasn\'t even been commited. I understand that.

However, I don\'t hate Sullivan. I\'m not ready to throw him to the wolves.

I\'m ready to wipe the slate clean and give him one FINAL chance. If he goes on to play up to his 1st round potential, I\'ll be satisfied.

If he goes on to be a bust ... well ... Haslett and co. made a huge mistake. They won\'t be the first team it happened to. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time we desperately needed a stud DT. They rolled the dice by giving up 2 first round draft picks to get the guy they wanted. We\'ll see ....

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]

saintswhodi · 04-28-2005, 12:26 PM

If he goes on to be a bust ... well ... Haslett and co. made a huge mistake. They won\'t be the first team it happened to. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time we desperately needed a stud DT. They rolled the dice by giving up 2 first round draft picks to get the guy they wanted. We\'ll see ....

IMO, whoever\'s decision that was should have been fired and still should be when/if Sully is cut. That was just a poor, poor decision our defense has been paying for the last two years. But like WhoDat said earlier. Sullivan IS getting another chance, just like this staff and front office. Not much we can do about it.

4saintspirit · 04-28-2005, 01:01 PM

IMO, whoever\'s decision that was should have been fired and still should be when/if Sully is cut. That was just a poor, poor decision our defense has been paying for the last two years. But like WhoDat said earlier. Sullivan IS getting another chance, just like this staff and front office. Not much we can do about it.

If we fired everyone who made mistakes in drafting decions we would never havea front office or a coach. Bottom line is whether these guys have drafted consistently good or bad over the course of a few years -- if the answer is mediocre or poor than they should be gone. As for Sully -- no reason not to give him another chance -- I think that one must try considering the price we paid for him. Of course no reason to believe another chance will be fruitful.

But I think this thread has gotten off-track -- I remember answering why I was willing to cut McPherson slack but was upset at Sully. I answered that one a long way back -- Mcpherson is costing us a 5th rounder salary and probably no signing bonus -- he is coming in with something to prove namely he is a NFL caliber QB -- he demonstrated he has talent with a year in the arena league earning rookie of the year honors -- and as for asking for another chance he has walked the talk of cleaning up his act. Just this alone makes me give him more slack and I haven\'t even gotten to the negative things about Sully.

saintswhodi · 04-28-2005, 01:08 PM

If we fired everyone who made mistakes in drafting decions we would never havea front office or a coach.

This mistake was on top of taking a playoff team and making them a laughingstock. SO yes, the person responsible for THAT decision should be fired at this point. Not when they made the pick, now. I was angry when they made the pick, but noone knew Sully would be this bad. SO yes I feel at this point it is warranted to fire the person who made that pick. Don\'t see how that translates into firing everyone who made draft mistakes. I certainly would not be advocating firing Bill Belichek or Scott Pioli if they traded two first rounders to draft a bust, but we aren\'t looking at that kind of front office or coaching here.

4saintspirit · 04-28-2005, 01:20 PM

If we fired everyone who made mistakes in drafting decions we would never havea front office or a coach.

This mistake was on top of taking a playoff team and making them a laughingstock. SO yes, the person responsible for THAT decision should be fired at this point. Not when they made the pick, now. I was angry when they made the pick, but noone knew Sully would be this bad. SO yes I feel at this point it is warranted to fire the person who made that pick. Don\'t see how that translates into firing everyone who made draft mistakes. I certainly would not be advocating firing Bill Belichek or Scott Pioli if they traded two first rounders to draft a bust, but we aren\'t looking at that kind of front office or coaching here.

I am not happy either -- I am just not sure who to fire -- Here is my thinking -- we brought in Deuce (a move I questioned at the time) but in the end it got some of our draft picks back and saved us from being burned like Miami was when Ricky walked out (think of the taunting the press would have given us). WHo let Roaf walk away -- Glover -- whose fault was that. I guess my point is that sometimes I am not sure if its the player personell moves or the coaching or the owner or what. I do happen to agree that someone should have been held accountable for the last 3 years

ScottyRo · 04-28-2005, 01:52 PM

If he goes on to play up to his 1st round potential, I\'ll be satisfied.

See, this is where we differ. If he\'d just become an ok starter, I\'d be happy with him. Sure, I\'d want more, but I could live with him giving all he had and starting.

cardboardboxer · 04-28-2005, 01:55 PM

How can you embrace one and not the other?

One was worth half of Ricky Williams (who we game an entire team for originally) and half our top pick, one is a fifth rounder.

We\'ll embrace McPherson because he might be a cheap way to help the team. Who cares what he did before, if he\'s changed we benefit and if not we only lose a second day pick.

With Sully, that fat A@@ cost the team two players in the first round. A lot is invested in him, so if he continues to tank then a year in the draft and half od Ricky was wasted.

He cares about illegealities, I care about how much is invested...

GumboBC · 04-28-2005, 02:09 PM

If he goes on to play up to his 1st round potential, I\'ll be satisfied.

See, this is where we differ. If he\'d just become an ok starter, I\'d be happy with him. Sure, I\'d want more, but I could live with him giving all he had and starting.

Scotty ...

Everything I\'ve been discussing had only to do with whether or not Sullivan should get ONE more chance.

I DID make the statement that I\'d be satisfied if Sully played up to his \"first-round\" potential.

And I stand by that statement.

Just becuase I\'m willing to give Sully a chance, I will NOT be satisfied unless he shows he can play up to his first round selection.

The only way I\'d be satisfied if Sullivan played \"decent\" is if he took a pay cut. He\'s making too much money just to be a \"decent\" player. IMHO.

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]

04-28-2005, 11:05 AM	#61
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Riddle me this:? Do you agree with cutting Sullivan outright? Again, I agree 100% with Scotty. Sullivan DESERVES to be cut, but he should NOT be cut b/c of the affect on the team financially. If Sullivan was getting paid what McPherson will this year, then I see no reason in him being given another shot. However he\'s not. He\'s getting paid a lot more. If he could be cut, given his current salary, with zero affect on the team, I would cut him in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, neither scenario is reality. Do you think McPherson deserves a 10 million dollar signing bonus? Afterall, he does deserve the kind of shake Sullivan is getting right?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

04-28-2005, 11:50 AM	#62
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Riddle me this:? He made himself available for the draft. I\'m sure they talked to hiim before they made the pick. He was probably giving them the full line of how hard he was going to work. Interesting. I don\'t agree with it. But it\'s interesting. I\'ll ask this again... Do you blame Rickey Williams for making himself \"avaliable\" for the draft and the Saints giving up a WHOLE draft for him? I never heard you or ANYone blame Ricky Wiliams for that. I\'ve heard Mike (Duh Coach) Ditka blamed, though. So, we blame Ditka for giving up a whole draft for Rickey Williams but we blame Jonathan Sullivan for what Loomis and Haslett did? Doesn\'t make a lot of sense to me?! 1. don\'t blame anyone for actions that are not there own-haz shouldn\'t have draft him that high... 2. do blame for actions that are their own...sully being lazy-he should be stiffly penalized...williams-he should be punished for his actions. otherwise the logic of the arguement that is being made makes little sense.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

04-28-2005, 12:21 PM	#63
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Riddle me this:? Okay, guys, I have a better understanding of how everyone feels about Sullivan. I just used the McPhearson/Sullivan comparison as a basis of disucssion. I don\'t have anything against McPhearson being given another chance to get his football career on track. Or his life as far as that\'s concerned. I\'ve heard many fans say Sully should\'t be given another chance. But I can\'t see ANY reason why Sully shouldn\'t be given another chance. Sure, Sullivan is making a lot of money, but just because the guy is making a lot of money doesn\'t mean he doesn\'t deserve ONE more chance. Hey, he\'s making a lot of money and he made a mistake. Why don\'t we burn him at the stake? That seems to be the attitude of many. It\'s hurting the team very badly to have ALL that money invested in Jonathan Sullivan and the guy hasn\'t even been commited. I understand that. However, I don\'t hate Sullivan. I\'m not ready to throw him to the wolves. I\'m ready to wipe the slate clean and give him one FINAL chance. If he goes on to play up to his 1st round potential, I\'ll be satisfied. If he goes on to be a bust ... well ... Haslett and co. made a huge mistake. They won\'t be the first team it happened to. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time we desperately needed a stud DT. They rolled the dice by giving up 2 first round draft picks to get the guy they wanted. We\'ll see .... [Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

04-28-2005, 12:26 PM	#64
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Riddle me this:? If he goes on to be a bust ... well ... Haslett and co. made a huge mistake. They won\'t be the first team it happened to. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time we desperately needed a stud DT. They rolled the dice by giving up 2 first round draft picks to get the guy they wanted. We\'ll see .... IMO, whoever\'s decision that was should have been fired and still should be when/if Sully is cut. That was just a poor, poor decision our defense has been paying for the last two years. But like WhoDat said earlier. Sullivan IS getting another chance, just like this staff and front office. Not much we can do about it.

04-28-2005, 01:01 PM	#65
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Riddle me this:? IMO, whoever\'s decision that was should have been fired and still should be when/if Sully is cut. That was just a poor, poor decision our defense has been paying for the last two years. But like WhoDat said earlier. Sullivan IS getting another chance, just like this staff and front office. Not much we can do about it. If we fired everyone who made mistakes in drafting decions we would never havea front office or a coach. Bottom line is whether these guys have drafted consistently good or bad over the course of a few years -- if the answer is mediocre or poor than they should be gone. As for Sully -- no reason not to give him another chance -- I think that one must try considering the price we paid for him. Of course no reason to believe another chance will be fruitful. But I think this thread has gotten off-track -- I remember answering why I was willing to cut McPherson slack but was upset at Sully. I answered that one a long way back -- Mcpherson is costing us a 5th rounder salary and probably no signing bonus -- he is coming in with something to prove namely he is a NFL caliber QB -- he demonstrated he has talent with a year in the arena league earning rookie of the year honors -- and as for asking for another chance he has walked the talk of cleaning up his act. Just this alone makes me give him more slack and I haven\'t even gotten to the negative things about Sully.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

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04-28-2005, 01:08 PM	#66
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Riddle me this:? If we fired everyone who made mistakes in drafting decions we would never havea front office or a coach. This mistake was on top of taking a playoff team and making them a laughingstock. SO yes, the person responsible for THAT decision should be fired at this point. Not when they made the pick, now. I was angry when they made the pick, but noone knew Sully would be this bad. SO yes I feel at this point it is warranted to fire the person who made that pick. Don\'t see how that translates into firing everyone who made draft mistakes. I certainly would not be advocating firing Bill Belichek or Scott Pioli if they traded two first rounders to draft a bust, but we aren\'t looking at that kind of front office or coaching here.

04-28-2005, 01:20 PM	#67
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Riddle me this:? If we fired everyone who made mistakes in drafting decions we would never havea front office or a coach. This mistake was on top of taking a playoff team and making them a laughingstock. SO yes, the person responsible for THAT decision should be fired at this point. Not when they made the pick, now. I was angry when they made the pick, but noone knew Sully would be this bad. SO yes I feel at this point it is warranted to fire the person who made that pick. Don\'t see how that translates into firing everyone who made draft mistakes. I certainly would not be advocating firing Bill Belichek or Scott Pioli if they traded two first rounders to draft a bust, but we aren\'t looking at that kind of front office or coaching here. I am not happy either -- I am just not sure who to fire -- Here is my thinking -- we brought in Deuce (a move I questioned at the time) but in the end it got some of our draft picks back and saved us from being burned like Miami was when Ricky walked out (think of the taunting the press would have given us). WHo let Roaf walk away -- Glover -- whose fault was that. I guess my point is that sometimes I am not sure if its the player personell moves or the coaching or the owner or what. I do happen to agree that someone should have been held accountable for the last 3 years
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

04-28-2005, 01:52 PM	#68
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Riddle me this:? If he goes on to play up to his 1st round potential, I\'ll be satisfied. See, this is where we differ. If he\'d just become an ok starter, I\'d be happy with him. Sure, I\'d want more, but I could live with him giving all he had and starting.

04-28-2005, 01:55 PM	#69
cardboardboxer Registered Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 65	Riddle me this:? How can you embrace one and not the other? One was worth half of Ricky Williams (who we game an entire team for originally) and half our top pick, one is a fifth rounder. We\'ll embrace McPherson because he might be a cheap way to help the team. Who cares what he did before, if he\'s changed we benefit and if not we only lose a second day pick. With Sully, that fat A@@ cost the team two players in the first round. A lot is invested in him, so if he continues to tank then a year in the draft and half od Ricky was wasted. He cares about illegealities, I care about how much is invested...
cardboardboxer Registered Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 65

04-28-2005, 02:09 PM	#70
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Riddle me this:? If he goes on to play up to his 1st round potential, I\'ll be satisfied. See, this is where we differ. If he\'d just become an ok starter, I\'d be happy with him. Sure, I\'d want more, but I could live with him giving all he had and starting. Scotty ... Everything I\'ve been discussing had only to do with whether or not Sullivan should get ONE more chance. I DID make the statement that I\'d be satisfied if Sully played up to his \"first-round\" potential. And I stand by that statement. Just becuase I\'m willing to give Sully a chance, I will NOT be satisfied unless he shows he can play up to his first round selection. The only way I\'d be satisfied if Sullivan played \"decent\" is if he took a pay cut. He\'s making too much money just to be a \"decent\" player. IMHO. [Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616