USA Today Saints Wire | Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents

dizzle88 · 10-22-2020, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI

You’ve hit on a major point here that I’ve been thinking about this season. Vonn Bell was the “captain” of the secondary who made all of the adjustments. Those guys grew together over the years and had developed their way of communicating on the field.

Why did we let Vonn Bell go?!? I truly think the reason our secondary has become so mediocre is solely because of Vonn leaving. We made the wrong choice.

I made this point in the off-season and a bunch of the Saints beat reporters quickly tried to correct me, saying Jenkins will bring a veteran presence and is better in coverage.

So far he looks just as useless as his first stint here and the D as a whole look confused. After a big play you just see them looking around like who's fault was that?

Vonn was a turnover machine with forced fumbles too, our D is shockingly last in the league in turnovers generated.

rezburna · 10-22-2020, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

I made this point in the off-season and a bunch of the Saints beat reporters quickly tried to correct me, saying Jenkins will bring a veteran presence and is better in coverage.

So far he looks just as useless as his first stint here and the D as a whole look confused. After a big play you just see them looking around like who's fault was that?

Vonn was a turnover machine with forced fumbles too, our D is shockingly last in the league in turnovers generated.

I disagree on this one. Von Bell is grading out horribly over there in Cincy, and we’re rated a position higher in pass defense than we were last year. The issues that persist with the Saints defense have been consistent. Pass interference, third downs, and giving up big plays at bad times. That was here when Bell was here. It was here when Byrd was here. It’s been like that since the loss of Sharper.

K Major · 10-22-2020, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

Letting Vonn Bell leave was so stupid.

Bell is limited. He's performed poorly thus far in Cincy.

We would have the same issues if he was still in New Orleans.

ChrisXVI · 10-22-2020, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I disagree on this one. Von Bell is grading out horribly over there in Cincy, and we’re rated a position higher in pass defense than we were last year. The issues that persist with the Saints defense have been consistent. Pass interference, third downs, and giving up big plays at bad times. That was here when Bell was here. It was here when Byrd was here. It’s been like that since the loss of Sharper.

Who’s doing this “grading?” Please don’t tell me you as a football player are using PFF as a reference.

ChrisXVI · 10-22-2020, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Bell is limited. He's performed poorly thus far in Cincy.

We would have the same issues if he was still in New Orleans.

But we didn’t have the same issue when he was in New Orleans.

K Major · 10-22-2020, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I disagree on this one. Von Bell is grading out horribly over there in Cincy, and we’re rated a position higher in pass defense than we were last year. The issues that persist with the Saints defense have been consistent. Pass interference, third downs, and giving up big plays at bad times. That was here when Bell was here. It was here when Byrd was here. It’s been like that since the loss of Sharper.

We can have Ed Reed and Earl Thomas in his prime back there and somehow they will look bad in New Orleans. It's very rare that you have 4 DB's looking bad in the same game. That speaks to the coordinator. You gotta simplify it.

DENNIS ALLEN's scheme is trash.

ChrisXVI · 10-22-2020, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

We can have Ed Reed and Earl Thomas in his prime back there and somehow they will look bad in New Orleans. It's very rare that you have 4 DB's looking bad in the same game. That speaks to the coordinator. You gotta simplify it.

DENNIS ALLEN's scheme is trash.

I agree that Dennis Allen is trash for sure.

Cruize · 10-23-2020, 12:41 AM

Great rookie season until the Vikes debacle. He just hasn't looked the same since. Decent ball skills. Below average tackler. Playing safety in today's NFL is brutal. You can't hit anyone. If you touch anyone you're flagged. Vertical routes are ran on every passing down. And the NFL has a lot of freakishly talented TE's. If any team offers him above average to high end money, he shouldn't need an agent to sign the deal.

TheOak · 10-23-2020, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI

You’ve hit on a major point here that I’ve been thinking about this season. Vonn Bell was the “captain” of the secondary who made all of the adjustments. Those guys grew together over the years and had developed their way of communicating on the field.

Why did we let Vonn Bell go?!? I truly think the reason our secondary has become so mediocre is solely because of Vonn leaving. We made the wrong choice.

When was our secondary consistently better than mediocre?

Mediocre for a Saints defense or an NFL defense?... I looked all the way back to 2007 and we haven't been better than 18th in the league for pass defense every year except the ones noted below. .

In 2013 we were 2nd and in 2010 we were 4rh.

Vonn Bell years 2016-2019
2016 31st
2017 18th
2018 29th
2019 19th

Lewis has a great year and Lattimore had a great year or so years but nothing more than that.

gosaints1 · 10-23-2020, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI

Who’s doing this “grading?” Please don’t tell me you as a football player are using PFF as a reference.

I use the DVOA rankings as their algorithm is more appropriate to the real game..., and not fantasy football. For example. A RB rushes four times for a total of four yards in a game, that’s all he does. While another RB rushes four times for 60 yards. Which one had a greater impact on their respective team? It’s not always the higher yards. The RB with four yards may have been responsible for four first downs, allowing drives to continue while the other RB’s offense may have been in 4th and 20 on each of his 15 yard runs (4 rushes 60 yards), effectively doing nothing to help his team. Their algorithm also accounts for garbage time stats, among many other things. Here is their explanation:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods

And here are the rankings, you can slide down from year to year. Their rankings may not be your cup of tea, but I find them to be extremely valuable when looking at real game, tangible analytics. As opposed to fantasy football stats.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...m-defense/2020

Many differing analytics to use though, find one you agree with on a philosophical level..., but, a static metric like yards allowed rarely, if ever tells the whole story.

10-22-2020, 05:13 PM	#21
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10,838	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by ChrisXVI You’ve hit on a major point here that I’ve been thinking about this season. Vonn Bell was the “captain” of the secondary who made all of the adjustments. Those guys grew together over the years and had developed their way of communicating on the field. Why did we let Vonn Bell go?!? I truly think the reason our secondary has become so mediocre is solely because of Vonn leaving. We made the wrong choice. I made this point in the off-season and a bunch of the Saints beat reporters quickly tried to correct me, saying Jenkins will bring a veteran presence and is better in coverage. So far he looks just as useless as his first stint here and the D as a whole look confused. After a big play you just see them looking around like who's fault was that? Vonn was a turnover machine with forced fumbles too, our D is shockingly last in the league in turnovers generated. ChrisXVI likes this.

10-22-2020, 05:16 PM	#22
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 7,660	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by dizzle88 I made this point in the off-season and a bunch of the Saints beat reporters quickly tried to correct me, saying Jenkins will bring a veteran presence and is better in coverage. So far he looks just as useless as his first stint here and the D as a whole look confused. After a big play you just see them looking around like who's fault was that? Vonn was a turnover machine with forced fumbles too, our D is shockingly last in the league in turnovers generated. I disagree on this one. Von Bell is grading out horribly over there in Cincy, and we’re rated a position higher in pass defense than we were last year. The issues that persist with the Saints defense have been consistent. Pass interference, third downs, and giving up big plays at bad times. That was here when Bell was here. It was here when Byrd was here. It’s been like that since the loss of Sharper. gosaints1 and K Major like this.

10-22-2020, 07:35 PM	#23
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,051 Blog Entries: 3	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by dizzle88 Letting Vonn Bell leave was so stupid. Bell is limited. He's performed poorly thus far in Cincy. We would have the same issues if he was still in New Orleans.

10-22-2020, 07:55 PM	#24
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by rezburna I disagree on this one. Von Bell is grading out horribly over there in Cincy, and we’re rated a position higher in pass defense than we were last year. The issues that persist with the Saints defense have been consistent. Pass interference, third downs, and giving up big plays at bad times. That was here when Bell was here. It was here when Byrd was here. It’s been like that since the loss of Sharper. Who’s doing this “grading?” Please don’t tell me you as a football player are using PFF as a reference.

10-22-2020, 07:57 PM	#25
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by K Major Bell is limited. He's performed poorly thus far in Cincy. We would have the same issues if he was still in New Orleans. But we didn’t have the same issue when he was in New Orleans.

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10-22-2020, 08:09 PM	#26
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,051 Blog Entries: 3	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by rezburna I disagree on this one. Von Bell is grading out horribly over there in Cincy, and we’re rated a position higher in pass defense than we were last year. The issues that persist with the Saints defense have been consistent. Pass interference, third downs, and giving up big plays at bad times. That was here when Bell was here. It was here when Byrd was here. It’s been like that since the loss of Sharper. We can have Ed Reed and Earl Thomas in his prime back there and somehow they will look bad in New Orleans. It's very rare that you have 4 DB's looking bad in the same game. That speaks to the coordinator. You gotta simplify it. DENNIS ALLEN's scheme is trash.

10-22-2020, 08:14 PM	#27
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by K Major We can have Ed Reed and Earl Thomas in his prime back there and somehow they will look bad in New Orleans. It's very rare that you have 4 DB's looking bad in the same game. That speaks to the coordinator. You gotta simplify it. DENNIS ALLEN's scheme is trash. I agree that Dennis Allen is trash for sure.

10-23-2020, 12:41 AM	#28
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,295	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Great rookie season until the Vikes debacle. He just hasn't looked the same since. Decent ball skills. Below average tackler. Playing safety in today's NFL is brutal. You can't hit anyone. If you touch anyone you're flagged. Vertical routes are ran on every passing down. And the NFL has a lot of freakishly talented TE's. If any team offers him above average to high end money, he shouldn't need an agent to sign the deal.
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,295

10-23-2020, 04:47 AM	#29
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by ChrisXVI You’ve hit on a major point here that I’ve been thinking about this season. Vonn Bell was the “captain” of the secondary who made all of the adjustments. Those guys grew together over the years and had developed their way of communicating on the field. Why did we let Vonn Bell go?!? I truly think the reason our secondary has become so mediocre is solely because of Vonn leaving. We made the wrong choice. When was our secondary consistently better than mediocre? Mediocre for a Saints defense or an NFL defense?... I looked all the way back to 2007 and we haven't been better than 18th in the league for pass defense every year except the ones noted below. . In 2013 we were 2nd and in 2010 we were 4rh. Vonn Bell years 2016-2019 2016 31st 2017 18th 2018 29th 2019 19th Lewis has a great year and Lattimore had a great year or so years but nothing more than that.

10-23-2020, 08:00 AM	#30
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: USA Today Saints Wire \| Amid a contract year, Saints safety Marcus Williams changes agents Originally Posted by ChrisXVI Who’s doing this “grading?” Please don’t tell me you as a football player are using PFF as a reference. I use the DVOA rankings as their algorithm is more appropriate to the real game..., and not fantasy football. For example. A RB rushes four times for a total of four yards in a game, that’s all he does. While another RB rushes four times for 60 yards. Which one had a greater impact on their respective team? It’s not always the higher yards. The RB with four yards may have been responsible for four first downs, allowing drives to continue while the other RB’s offense may have been in 4th and 20 on each of his 15 yard runs (4 rushes 60 yards), effectively doing nothing to help his team. Their algorithm also accounts for garbage time stats, among many other things. Here is their explanation: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods And here are the rankings, you can slide down from year to year. Their rankings may not be your cup of tea, but I find them to be extremely valuable when looking at real game, tangible analytics. As opposed to fantasy football stats. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...m-defense/2020 Many differing analytics to use though, find one you agree with on a philosophical level..., but, a static metric like yards allowed rarely, if ever tells the whole story.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576