Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss

12-22-2020, 09:21 AM

How rusty will MT be when he gets back? We’re just snake bit with wrs injuries , the injury report gonna be interesting.

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gosaints1 · 12-22-2020, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Rell&Gold

The offense started badly dropped passes missed blocking assignments, no separation, no trust. Holding the ball too long.

Started badly? It ended just as badly also. 3rd down conversions plays for the Saints (chronological order):

1) 3rd & 5 Incomplete Short left
2) 3rd & 5 Int Short right
3) 3rd & 4 Incomplete Deep right
4) 3rd & 7 Sacked
5) 3rd & 10 COMPLETE Deep right
6) 3rd & 13 Incomplete Short right
7) 3rd & 2 Incomplete Short left
8) 3rd & 8 Incomplete Short middle
9) 3rd & 6 Incomplete Deep right and Intentional grounding penalty
10) 3rd & 5 Incomplete Short Right
11) 3rd & 2 Incomplete Deep right (Drive was continued by a successful 4th & 2 pass Deep middle immediately the play after, I felt it was important to note that.)

1 of 11, a sack, an int, intentional grounding, and one (1) successful conversion the entire game is not just “starting badly”. It’s much worse than that. What’s most unnerving to me is the only reason we were still in that game is bc of DB#9 taking deep shots. YaY! He CAN actually throw deeper than short right and left, so naturally his completion rate is down (below 50%) and it concerns him enough to say the following after the game:

“I took too many deep shots, I need to check down more”. Oi vey, Mr Brees, you’re completion percentage is COMPLETELY irrelevant, unimportant. Pass the heck out of the ball if the defense allows it. And my guess is every defense that faces him will “beg” him to beat them deep. A 44% completion rate with a Win in the column is ALWAYS better than an 78% completion rate and a Loss.

Oof. That comment was a gut shot to my confidence in the Saints as an offensive unit.

Sustaining drives is critical to controlling games. It was an abysmal failure offensively, in that respect. 6 of the 11 3rd down plays were short routes, five incompletes and one interception. KC took away the short routes! You can’t check it down when your high percentage is completely covered but you’ve got a chance over the top with a running free Sanders. Take the shot.

Drew Brees made some surprisingly good throws and then he says he needs to check it down more. This team is best when DB#9 is the most dangerous weapon on the field, and not a game manager. Much to my chagrin, he’s more commonly associated with the latter.

Again..., Ooof.

Bottom line, stats don’t win games..., playmakers do. Be a playmaker once again Mr. Brees. That guy I would fall on my sword for. Check Down Brees though? Not so much.

K Major · 12-22-2020, 11:19 AM

Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy.

Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us.

gosaints1 · 12-22-2020, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy.

Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us.

Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep.

K Major · 12-22-2020, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep.

Zimmer has shown he can effectively limit us offensively over the years. 6 man fronts with either Harris or Harrison in the box.

No team respects our replacement wide outs.

What's your game plan on Friday?

gosaints1 · 12-22-2020, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Zimmer has shown he can effectively limit us offensively over the years. 6 man fronts with either Harris or Harrison in the box.

No team respects our replacement wide outs.

What's your game plan on Friday?

Not real sure about respect paid, or not, lol, but I really like to see the over the top throws to Sanders! A lot. If you’re only using him on deep throws once or twice a season, then why have him? And one of my favorite plays of this entire year was in the last game. The screen TD to Murray, where he released from his block. That was beautifully done, I’d like to see more of that. I’m tired of short left/short right being the staple of our offense.

I’m not sure what to expect in the next game. Check down Brees means we struggle, imho. An opened up offense, using all of the weapons available and this is a VERY talented and good team.

After last game, despite the statistical disasters, I was more optimistic about the future. Then came DB#9’s comments and I cried inside, lol.

Bottom line, I agree with Rez. Regardless of who is throwing the ball, if you’re not scoring on offense, you’re not going to hang with the playoff teams.

Rugby Saint II · 12-22-2020, 02:07 PM

It's hard to believe that we weren't motivated but the whole team looked disinterested Sunday. FLAT FOOTED LOSS AGAIN!

AsylumGuido · 12-23-2020, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy.

Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us.

Originally Posted by gosaints1

Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep.

I was listening to Charlie Weis on NFL Radio today and two callers broached this subject. One was complaining about the play calling (not Saints related) not including enough run plays and the other was actually asking about Kamara's lack of touches. Weis' answers overlapped a bit so I'll combine and paraphrase. First, Weis pointed out game planning dictates play calling to a degree, but the defensive front has even more of a direct impact. He said that chance of success on any given play at the line dictates run versus pass. He basically said that while a run may have been the primary call the look often dictates a quick pass for what is usually a better chance at a gain. He has also said in the past the goal is always to run the ball as much as you can, but if the defense is giving you the better chance via pass you have to take it (as pointed out by gosaints1).

Our problem this past game is that we weren't able to take advantage of it early. On some of those hot reads the receivers were completely out on position. On others the read was correct, but the ball was simply dropped. On others Brees wasn't quite dialed in yet.

The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line.

gosaints1 · 12-23-2020, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

...The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line.

A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that.

AsylumGuido · 12-23-2020, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that.

When we're at full strength we have the talent to do that. Although, we did start taking advantage in the second half.

And you're right, the Chiefs' defense barely worked up a sweat in the first half.

12-22-2020, 09:21 AM	#51
Threaded by st thomas Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: lafayette Posts: 7,753 Rating: (0 votes - average) How rusty will MT be when he gets back? We’re just snake bit with wrs injuries , the injury report gonna be interesting. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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12-22-2020, 10:15 AM	#52
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by Rell&Gold The offense started badly dropped passes missed blocking assignments, no separation, no trust. Holding the ball too long. Started badly? It ended just as badly also. 3rd down conversions plays for the Saints (chronological order): 1) 3rd & 5 Incomplete Short left 2) 3rd & 5 Int Short right 3) 3rd & 4 Incomplete Deep right 4) 3rd & 7 Sacked 5) 3rd & 10 COMPLETE Deep right 6) 3rd & 13 Incomplete Short right 7) 3rd & 2 Incomplete Short left 8) 3rd & 8 Incomplete Short middle 9) 3rd & 6 Incomplete Deep right and Intentional grounding penalty 10) 3rd & 5 Incomplete Short Right 11) 3rd & 2 Incomplete Deep right (Drive was continued by a successful 4th & 2 pass Deep middle immediately the play after, I felt it was important to note that.) 1 of 11, a sack, an int, intentional grounding, and one (1) successful conversion the entire game is not just “starting badly”. It’s much worse than that. What’s most unnerving to me is the only reason we were still in that game is bc of DB#9 taking deep shots. YaY! He CAN actually throw deeper than short right and left, so naturally his completion rate is down (below 50%) and it concerns him enough to say the following after the game: “I took too many deep shots, I need to check down more”. Oi vey, Mr Brees, you’re completion percentage is COMPLETELY irrelevant, unimportant. Pass the heck out of the ball if the defense allows it. And my guess is every defense that faces him will “beg” him to beat them deep. A 44% completion rate with a Win in the column is ALWAYS better than an 78% completion rate and a Loss. Oof. That comment was a gut shot to my confidence in the Saints as an offensive unit. Sustaining drives is critical to controlling games. It was an abysmal failure offensively, in that respect. 6 of the 11 3rd down plays were short routes, five incompletes and one interception. KC took away the short routes! You can’t check it down when your high percentage is completely covered but you’ve got a chance over the top with a running free Sanders. Take the shot. Drew Brees made some surprisingly good throws and then he says he needs to check it down more. This team is best when DB#9 is the most dangerous weapon on the field, and not a game manager. Much to my chagrin, he’s more commonly associated with the latter. Again..., Ooof. Bottom line, stats don’t win games..., playmakers do. Be a playmaker once again Mr. Brees. That guy I would fall on my sword for. Check Down Brees though? Not so much.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

12-22-2020, 11:19 AM	#53
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy. Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us. gosaints1 likes this.

12-22-2020, 12:00 PM	#54
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by K Major Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy. Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us. Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

12-22-2020, 12:26 PM	#55
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by gosaints1 Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep. Zimmer has shown he can effectively limit us offensively over the years. 6 man fronts with either Harris or Harrison in the box. No team respects our replacement wide outs. What's your game plan on Friday?

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12-22-2020, 01:24 PM	#56
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by K Major Zimmer has shown he can effectively limit us offensively over the years. 6 man fronts with either Harris or Harrison in the box. No team respects our replacement wide outs. What's your game plan on Friday? Not real sure about respect paid, or not, lol, but I really like to see the over the top throws to Sanders! A lot. If you’re only using him on deep throws once or twice a season, then why have him? And one of my favorite plays of this entire year was in the last game. The screen TD to Murray, where he released from his block. That was beautifully done, I’d like to see more of that. I’m tired of short left/short right being the staple of our offense. I’m not sure what to expect in the next game. Check down Brees means we struggle, imho. An opened up offense, using all of the weapons available and this is a VERY talented and good team. After last game, despite the statistical disasters, I was more optimistic about the future. Then came DB#9’s comments and I cried inside, lol. Bottom line, I agree with Rez. Regardless of who is throwing the ball, if you’re not scoring on offense, you’re not going to hang with the playoff teams.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

12-22-2020, 02:07 PM	#57
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss It's hard to believe that we weren't motivated but the whole team looked disinterested Sunday. FLAT FOOTED LOSS AGAIN!

12-23-2020, 01:01 PM	#58
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,241	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by K Major Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy. Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us. Originally Posted by gosaints1 Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep. I was listening to Charlie Weis on NFL Radio today and two callers broached this subject. One was complaining about the play calling (not Saints related) not including enough run plays and the other was actually asking about Kamara's lack of touches. Weis' answers overlapped a bit so I'll combine and paraphrase. First, Weis pointed out game planning dictates play calling to a degree, but the defensive front has even more of a direct impact. He said that chance of success on any given play at the line dictates run versus pass. He basically said that while a run may have been the primary call the look often dictates a quick pass for what is usually a better chance at a gain. He has also said in the past the goal is always to run the ball as much as you can, but if the defense is giving you the better chance via pass you have to take it (as pointed out by gosaints1). Our problem this past game is that we weren't able to take advantage of it early. On some of those hot reads the receivers were completely out on position. On others the read was correct, but the ball was simply dropped. On others Brees wasn't quite dialed in yet. The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line. gosaints1 likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

12-23-2020, 01:36 PM	#59
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by AsylumGuido ...The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line. A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

12-23-2020, 01:43 PM	#60
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,241	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by gosaints1 A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that. When we're at full strength we have the talent to do that. Although, we did start taking advantage in the second half. And you're right, the Chiefs' defense barely worked up a sweat in the first half.