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Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by SloMotion I agree with you in theory, but probably not on the definition of "conditions", #shrug. This is every day in Detroit ... two guys (or a gal) got beef, one goes gets a gun and shoots ...

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Old 04-12-2016, 02:54 PM   #41
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by SloMotion View Post
I agree with you in theory, but probably not on the definition of "conditions", #shrug. This is every day in Detroit ... two guys (or a gal) got beef, one goes gets a gun and shoots up the place ... kids parties, family gatherings, at the mall, at the gas station, at the party store, on the block, in the house, while driving or just sitting in a car ... doesn't matter. The only reason this makes the news is because an NFL player is involved, and that condition has to change.

88% or more of young, Black men homicides are committed by other Black men ... that's the condition that has to change, IMO, that and the condition where we glorify "thug life" and perpetuate a culture of violence, that and the denial that this is purely a societal issue and also not a cultural one, #shrug. Everybody got to be an OG, #smh.

One guy was driving a Hummer, one guy a Mercedes ... I don't think poverty's necessarily a contributing condition in this situation. Both these guys had an education (Smith just completed his MBA?) ... I don't think you can pin it on lack of educational opportunities. Both guys were employed playing football, so it's not a lack of employment opportunities. If anything, I'd say both these guys took advantage of the opportunities afforded them and could reasonably be considered success stories, #shrug. The fact the shooter called 911, remained on the scene, had a registered firearm also speaks volumes, this guy wasn't the product of poor upbringing or social issues ... "lack of playgrounds" or whatever condition-of-the-week is going around wasn't the root cause behind this shooting, IMO.

I can't tell you how much I hate this shiot, reading about it, seeing it on the news every night ... it's just senseless, .

My heart and my sincerest condolences go out to Saints Nation and all families involved, .
I don't want to speak for rez, as I don't know exactly what conditions he's referring to, but when I think of "conditions" I see that as a broad term for any number of possibilities. The guy who shot Will has SOMETHING wrong with him. It doesn't have to be poverty or upbringing, necessarily.

But in his case, I think you can make a strong case for his upbringing. True, he had money and perhaps a good education. But his dad was shot and killed after attacking a police officer. So he had THAT kind of parent for an example. It also just so happens that Will was friends with the cop who shot his dad. So it's highly unlikely this murder was a random thing. It's not a good reason, because Will didn't have anything to do with it, but you can bet this guy wants as many people associated with that cop to be dead, as possible.

Some people are "conditioned" to hate others. That's what leads to violence. And how do we cure that? We're not God, so all we can do is try to set a good example for those around us. We can't control what others will do. But some people have it in their minds that we can do just that, by taking away their guns, as if the gun is inherently evil. Bugs the crap out of me.
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If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:03 PM   #42
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
I don't want to speak for rez, as I don't know exactly what conditions he's referring to, but when I think of "conditions" I see that as a broad term for any number of possibilities.
Well, I'm just referring to the standard social conditions that are typically thrown out there to minimize/transfer personal responsibility in situations like this, ie poverty, lack of educational opportunities, lack of employment opportunities, discrimination, racism, et ... they don't apply in this situation, IMO, and I think that's one of the problems in reconciling this stuff ... we don't look at these situations individually, like we should, and instead make broad, sweeping assumptions, attempting to speak to larger social issues that may or may not bear responsibility. I have no problem giving the above listed conditions an "assist" in most cases, just not this one, #shrug.

The guy who shot Will has SOMETHING wrong with him. It doesn't have to be poverty or upbringing, necessarily.
This isn't going to be popular, but I don't think the shooter has anything wrong with him. Just the way he handled himself in that situation, ie call 911, remain on scene, seek out witnesses, et ... shows that, IMO. I guarantee you Smith didn't get out of his vehicle asking to exchange license/registration and at some point, made a credible threat that went beyond smack. This is my opinion ... Smith, the former pro football player, told Hayes he was gonna' kick his ass, Hayes said, "I got a gun", Smith said, "I got one too" and the shots in the back were the result of Hayes fearing for his life (whether that's credible or not remains to be seen) and figured he had to get Smith before Smith got him. That's how this shiot escalates, to the point where one party thinks they have justification to apply deadly force.

But in his case, I think you can make a strong case for his upbringing. True, he had money and perhaps a good education. But his dad was shot and killed after attacking a police officer. So he had THAT kind of parent for an example. It also just so happens that Will was friends with the cop who shot his dad. So it's highly unlikely this murder was a random thing. It's not a good reason, because Will didn't have anything to do with it, but you can bet this guy wants as many people associated with that cop to be dead.
IDK the parent or the incident, so I can't comment on his upbringing other than how his (Hayes) actions are not consistent with your average hood rat or someone who had bad parenting. I do honestly think it was the result of road rage, anger management, being a hard ass, et ... I tell ya', from personal experience and seeing these types of situations constantly, people are angry, angry, angry and this stuff escalates to this level far too often.

Some people are "conditioned" to hate others. That's what leads to violence. And how do we cure that? We're not God, so all we can do is try to set a good example for those around us. We can't control what others will do. But some people have it in their minds that we can do just that, by taking away their guns, as if the gun is inherently evil. Bugs the crap out of me.
So Hayes was conditioned to hate Smith because of his relationship with Billy Ceravolo? I can understand at how having your Dad shot by police would harden or condition you to hate (sort of like a PTSD), but if he's got an ongoing lawsuit against the police, it doesn't make sense he's gonna' go out and start eliminating people on his hate list, jeopardizing his case ... and I don't think there's enough of a connection between Smith and Ceravolo that would make this guy target Smith. I honestly think it started with the hit and run and escalated from there.

I'm not justifying Hayes' action, I've just seen this play out so many times and the end result is always the same ... and it's not always an adult that winds up shot. It's a flagrant disregard for the sanctity of life and I'm not going to point to or blame societal issues every instance. There's plenty of poor people, with basic educations and in poor situations, that don't blow people away or threaten an individual when in a confrontation, so why is it with young, Black men? IDK.
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:37 PM   #43
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by SloMotion View Post
Well, I'm just referring to the standard social conditions that are typically thrown out there to minimize/transfer personal responsibility in situations like this, ie poverty, lack of educational opportunities, lack of employment opportunities, discrimination, racism, et ... they don't apply in this situation, IMO, and I think that's one of the problems in reconciling this stuff ... we don't look at these situations individually, like we should, and instead make broad, sweeping assumptions, attempting to speak to larger social issues that may or may not bear responsibility. I have no problem giving the above listed conditions an "assist" in most cases, just not this one, #shrug.



This isn't going to be popular, but I don't think the shooter has anything wrong with him. Just the way he handled himself in that situation, ie call 911, remain on scene, seek out witnesses, et ... shows that, IMO. I guarantee you Smith didn't get out of his vehicle asking to exchange license/registration and at some point, made a credible threat that went beyond smack. This is my opinion ... Smith, the former pro football player, told Hayes he was gonna' kick his ass, Hayes said, "I got a gun", Smith said, "I got one too" and the shots in the back were the result of Hayes fearing for his life (whether that's credible or not remains to be seen) and figured he had to get Smith before Smith got him. That's how this shiot escalates, to the point where one party thinks they have justification to apply deadly force.



IDK the parent or the incident, so I can't comment on his upbringing other than how his (Hayes) actions are not consistent with your average hood rat or someone who had bad parenting. I do honestly think it was the result of road rage, anger management, being a hard ass, et ... I tell ya', from personal experience and seeing these types of situations constantly, people are angry, angry, angry and this stuff escalates to this level far too often.



So Hayes was conditioned to hate Smith because of his relationship with Billy Ceravolo? I can understand at how having your Dad shot by police would harden or condition you to hate (sort of like a PTSD), but if he's got an ongoing lawsuit against the police, it doesn't make sense he's gonna' go out and start eliminating people on his hate list, jeopardizing his case ... and I don't think there's enough of a connection between Smith and Ceravolo that would make this guy target Smith. I honestly think it started with the hit and run and escalated from there.

I'm not justifying Hayes' action, I've just seen this play out so many times and the end result is always the same ... and it's not always an adult that winds up shot. It's a flagrant disregard for the sanctity of life and I'm not going to point to or blame societal issues every instance. There's plenty of poor people, with basic educations and in poor situations, that don't blow people away or threaten an individual when in a confrontation, so why is it with young, Black men? IDK.
Slo, I rarely disagree with you on anything, and I'm not saying I disagree with everything you said, but one doesn't simply shoot a person over road rage without having a serious personal issue. You don't have to tell me that things like this escalate, because I already know that very well. The question is how, or why, does it escalate? I've been mad at drivers for cutting in front of me, and then flipping me off when I honk at them. But I never for a second entertained the idea of killing them.

It's sounds like you think it's making excuses to say these people have something wrong with them. I'm not making ANY excuse for criminals. Whatever circumstances you came from does not give you the right to be violent. But there has to be a reason that people become the way they are. Every human being is inherently evil and capable of doing horrible things without proper guidance. Some people just never develop a moral compass. Some are born with a mental predisposition that makes them more prone to outbursts. Whatever the origin of the problem, there is certainly something wrong.

We live in a society where people are constantly being turned against each other with political rhetoric. This only fuels the problems, though it isn't the central problem.

You asked if I think he was conditioned to hate Smith because of his friendship with Ceravolo. I think it's highly likely, yes. Whatever lawsuit he had going on, he would have had a hard time winning that case. I'm not sure why I should question his willingness to jeopardize his case when that is EXACTLY what he did. Smith was shot in the back. That doesn't sound like self defense. Where's the other gun?

I'm not defending Will because he's a former Saint. I'm defending him because there is nothing to suggest he did anything to get himself shot. I don't care what he said to the guy. If Hayes chased him down, then I'm quite sure there was a pretty loud argument between them. But to shoot Smith AND his wife?

When did I say that all poor people go around shooting others? I mentioned a few of the symptoms (didn't think I had to list every single one) that lead to crime, in making my point that blaming the weapon is misguided.

Why do young black men kill each other so much? I don't know either, other than to say that it's a cultural issue. You said yourself, everyone wants to be an OG. Well, why is that? They grow up around gangs and they want to a part of it I'm guessing? Am I making some kind of excuse when I say that? I sure don't think so. It's not ok to be a gangster because everyone else around you is caught up in it. But that's the way it is. I have no idea if Hayes had any gang affiliation. But I know that to kill a person it takes an extraordinary amount of anger that goes far beyond just road rage. Yeah, he had road rage alright, but to take it to that level? Will Smith was as quiet as any professional athlete out there. I don't find it credible that he would have made a gun threat, even as a bluff.

I'm really confused how we can say that people just commit murders without any deep-seeded hatred. Even if Hayes had no idea who Smith was, he obviously had enough anger to kill him over a fender bender. Is that anything less than hatred? Did he kill him because he was bored?

We don't have much information about the so- called hit and run. There's no telling if Hayes provoked Smith to bump him, or if it was initiated by Smith. Either way, I'm sure that did escalate the problem, but to kill him right after he was hanging out with ceravolo, it seems awful unlikely that that didn't contribute to his reason for shooting him. I can't say for sure though. So let's assume he had no clue who he was shooting. Give me evidence that Will threatened him. The fact that the killer didn't flee the scene tells me that he panicked. I've heard of numerous cases of people calling 911 after killing someone to stage it as an accident, or self defense.
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If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:49 PM   #44
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by SloMotion View Post
I agree with you in theory, but probably not on the definition of "conditions", #shrug. This is every day in Detroit ... two guys (or a gal) got beef, one goes gets a gun and shoots up the place ... kids parties, family gatherings, at the mall, at the gas station, at the party store, on the block, in the house, while driving or just sitting in a car ... doesn't matter. The only reason this makes the news is because an NFL player is involved, and that condition has to change.

88% or more of young, Black men homicides are committed by other Black men ... that's the condition that has to change, IMO, that and the condition where we glorify "thug life" and perpetuate a culture of violence, that and the denial that this is purely a societal issue and also not a cultural one, #shrug. Everybody got to be an OG, #smh.

One guy was driving a Hummer, one guy a Mercedes ... I don't think poverty's necessarily a contributing condition in this situation. Both these guys had an education (Smith just completed his MBA?) ... I don't think you can pin it on lack of educational opportunities. Both guys were employed playing football, so it's not a lack of employment opportunities. If anything, I'd say both these guys took advantage of the opportunities afforded them and could reasonably be considered success stories, #shrug. The fact the shooter called 911, remained on the scene, had a registered firearm also speaks volumes, this guy wasn't the product of poor upbringing or social issues ... "lack of playgrounds" or whatever condition-of-the-week is going around wasn't the root cause behind this shooting, IMO.

I can't tell you how much I hate this shiot, reading about it, seeing it on the news every night ... it's just senseless, .

My heart and my sincerest condolences go out to Saints Nation and all families involved, .
I understand your premise in this individual incident, but poverty, poor education, and societal dismissal go hand in hand with poverty globally. That's way before we even start the conversation on systematic racism and PTSD as well as other mental health issues young, Black people don't get quality care for. I just wrote a discussion for school about the lack of mental health care for minorities, with an emphasis on African Americans. The Black Middle Class, although I'd argue there's really no such thing, has crime rates not much different from their counterparts. America created ghettos with red lining, zoning laws, and housing discrimination. They got the idea from Hitler and didn't even bother to change the name. So at the end of the day, the heart of the problem is socioeconomic. Playing 400 year catch up isn't easy. To be honest, we never will. As far as this incident in particular is concerned, it's like John Lennon getting shot and killed. It just happened, and it's unfortunate.

Also, all homicides are overwhelmingly intraracial. I agree with you when it comes to the lack of "care" shown by our country in war zones like Detroit and Chicago. It shouldn't take a football player to draw attention to the help that's needed across the country. This has become my greatest passion. I go over statistics and socioeconomic studies all day. I watch professors, doctors, activists, and politicians give insight and solutions or lack thereof. I read the historical events and legislature, as well as the current events and legislature. I really, really care. I was blessed. I had both parents. They gave me a great foundation. I don't have to be worried about where I started and the people still stuck there, but I am. I'll have my bachelor's in Healthcare Administration and Education in August. I'm going right back for my Master's. I want to open up clinics, and one day hospitals in these impoverished areas. I want to target those children and guide them into Healthcare fields where they can come work for me. I want to save the culture, because I know nobody else will.
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:50 PM   #45
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by rezburna View Post
I understand your premise in this individual incident, but poverty, poor education, and societal dismissal go hand in hand with poverty globally. That's way before we even start the conversation on systematic racism and PTSD as well as other mental health issues young, Black people don't get quality care for. I just wrote a discussion for school about the lack of mental health care for minorities, with an emphasis on African Americans. The Black Middle Class, although I'd argue there's really no such thing, has crime rates not much different from their counterparts. America created ghettos with red lining, zoning laws, and housing discrimination. They got the idea from Hitler and didn't even bother to change the name. So at the end of the day, the heart of the problem is socioeconomic. Playing 400 year catch up isn't easy. To be honest, we never will. As far as this incident in particular is concerned, it's like John Lennon getting shot and killed. It just happened, and it's unfortunate.

Also, all homicides are overwhelmingly intraracial. I agree with you when it comes to the lack of "care" shown by our country in war zones like Detroit and Chicago. It shouldn't take a football player to draw attention to the help that's needed across the country. This has become my greatest passion. I go over statistics and socioeconomic studies all day. I watch professors, doctors, activists, and politicians give insight and solutions or lack thereof. I read the historical events and legislature, as well as the current events and legislature. I really, really care. I was blessed. I had both parents. They gave me a great foundation. I don't have to be worried about where I started and the people still stuck there, but I am. I'll have my bachelor's in Healthcare Administration and Education in August. I'm going right back for my Master's. I want to open up clinics, and one day hospitals in these impoverished areas. I want to target those children and guide them into Healthcare fields where they can come work for me. I want to save the culture, because I know nobody else will.
Wait, did I just read you can get PTSD by being a young black male? Please for the love of God don't go there. As a military vet and a LEO I find that more offensive than anything I have ever read on here. PTSD is not a STD or the FLU. A ton of military vets who come home after being shot at everyday should not be in the same boat as someone growing up on the south side.
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:00 PM   #46
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

I knew this was gonna get stupid.
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:03 PM   #47
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by skymike View Post
I knew this was gonna get stupid.
Always does because you have the emotional camp and the sinister camp combining to attack the logical camp...
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:48 PM   #48
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Logically everyone has a right to own a gun. I would say that those who have committed any kind of gun crime should never be allowed to own one but those people don't get guns legally. When you enact new laws to limit ownership then you hurt the good people not the ones who commit crimes. look at Chicago. I would also say that people with serious mental disorders should not be allowed either but once you start restricting it where does it end?
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Old 04-13-2016, 12:51 AM   #49
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by voodooido View Post
Wait, did I just read you can get PTSD by being a young black male? Please for the love of God don't go there. As a military vet and a LEO I find that more offensive than anything I have ever read on here. PTSD is not a STD or the FLU. A ton of military vets who come home after being shot at everyday should not be in the same boat as someone growing up on the south side.
PTSD can (and does) happen to lots of people due to lots of things. It doesn't have to be a war zone, it just has to be traumatic. And it's real. Very real.
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Old 04-13-2016, 01:17 AM   #50
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by WhoDat!656 View Post
"It seems to have worked for the UK; just sayin'"
Well that is rubbish. We have few armed officers. Those that are generally guard embassies,parliment etc. Saying crime was rare in a 1900 is a joke too. Just nobody cared when the poor were beaten,raped or murdered.

A ban on guns stops alot of deaths purely by people having time to think before they act. A heated argument doesn't escalate to a shooting.

But i dont live over there so its nothing to do with me
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