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Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by rezburna The right to bear arms main reason for being a part of The Constitution is just in case the people ever had to take up arms against the government. I'm indifferent on the issue. I've never ...

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Old 04-13-2016, 01:22 AM   #51
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by rezburna View Post
The right to bear arms main reason for being a part of The Constitution is just in case the people ever had to take up arms against the government. I'm indifferent on the issue. I've never owned a gun, although I've shot em a couple times. I might get one now that I have a daughter. Lol. But it's whatever. My concern is eradicating the conditions that most often lead to violent crime.
Owning a gun to take up arms against the government is a joke in this day and age. You really think its going to end well. It worked in yhe 1700s when you all had muskets but you think it would work today with drones etc
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Old 04-13-2016, 05:56 AM   #52
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

England is not a good place to compare this issue to. The laws are old and to well established. States are flooded with guns as one would expect for the worlds leading producer and supplier.

Illegal gun availability will always be the key point.

Politically it is all about killing the other parties golden goose. Abortion on side and the 2nd amendment on the other.

To be honest neither side of the issue really cares about life. It is all about the fame surrounding the killing of the others golden goose. Not you and me.

congress has done little to change my view point since the day I started voting.

On the local level I ask myself why has the city of New Orleans allowed itself to continuously compete for the title of the murder capital of the united states and has done little or next to nothing to stop it.
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:51 AM   #53
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Slo, I rarely disagree with you on anything, and I'm not saying I disagree with everything you said, but one doesn't simply shoot a person over road rage without having a serious personal issue. You don't have to tell me that things like this escalate, because I already know that very well. The question is how, or why, does it escalate? I've been mad at drivers for cutting in front of me, and then flipping me off when I honk at them. But I never for a second entertained the idea of killing them.
It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.

It's sounds like you think it's making excuses to say these people have something wrong with them. I'm not making ANY excuse for criminals. Whatever circumstances you came from does not give you the right to be violent. But there has to be a reason that people become the way they are. Every human being is inherently evil and capable of doing horrible things without proper guidance. Some people just never develop a moral compass. Some are born with a mental predisposition that makes them more prone to outbursts. Whatever the origin of the problem, there is certainly something wrong.
I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.

You asked if I think he was conditioned to hate Smith because of his friendship with Ceravolo. I think it's highly likely, yes. Whatever lawsuit he had going on, he would have had a hard time winning that case. I'm not sure why I should question his willingness to jeopardize his case when that is EXACTLY what he did. Smith was shot in the back. That doesn't sound like self defense. Where's the other gun?
I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.

When did I say that all poor people go around shooting others? I mentioned a few of the symptoms (didn't think I had to list every single one) that lead to crime, in making my point that blaming the weapon is misguided.
Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.

Originally Posted by rezburna View Post
I understand your premise in this individual incident, but poverty, poor education, and societal dismissal go hand in hand with poverty globally. That's way before we even start the conversation on systematic racism and PTSD as well as other mental health issues young, Black people don't get quality care for. I just wrote a discussion for school about the lack of mental health care for minorities, with an emphasis on African Americans. The Black Middle Class, although I'd argue there's really no such thing, has crime rates not much different from their counterparts. America created ghettos with red lining, zoning laws, and housing discrimination. They got the idea from Hitler and didn't even bother to change the name. So at the end of the day, the heart of the problem is socioeconomic. Playing 400 year catch up isn't easy. To be honest, we never will. As far as this incident in particular is concerned, it's like John Lennon getting shot and killed. It just happened, and it's unfortunate.

Also, all homicides are overwhelmingly intraracial. I agree with you when it comes to the lack of "care" shown by our country in war zones like Detroit and Chicago. It shouldn't take a football player to draw attention to the help that's needed across the country. This has become my greatest passion. I go over statistics and socioeconomic studies all day. I watch professors, doctors, activists, and politicians give insight and solutions or lack thereof. I read the historical events and legislature, as well as the current events and legislature. I really, really care. I was blessed. I had both parents. They gave me a great foundation. I don't have to be worried about where I started and the people still stuck there, but I am. I'll have my bachelor's in Healthcare Administration and Education in August. I'm going right back for my Master's. I want to open up clinics, and one day hospitals in these impoverished areas. I want to target those children and guide them into Healthcare fields where they can come work for me. I want to save the culture, because I know nobody else will.
I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, . I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, . One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. .

Originally Posted by voodooido View Post
Wait, did I just read you can get PTSD by being a young black male? Please for the love of God don't go there. As a military vet and a LEO I find that more offensive than anything I have ever read on here. PTSD is not a STD or the FLU. A ton of military vets who come home after being shot at everyday should not be in the same boat as someone growing up on the south side.
Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.
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Old 04-13-2016, 07:57 AM   #54
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by SloMotion View Post
It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.



I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.



I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.



Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.



I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, . I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, . One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. .



Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.
I was going to respond to the PTSD comment, but y'all did it for me. Also, go listen to Dr. Joy DeGruy's lecture on PTSD. She put a unique twist on it that could be very enlightening.

Overall, I agree with most of what you're saying as well, so I rather not nitpick or start larger debates when we both are really close to an understanding. I always get everybody's "name's" confused, so if you're the guy I got into that argument with a while back, thanks for being cool.
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Old 04-13-2016, 08:00 AM   #55
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by lee909 View Post
Owning a gun to take up arms against the government is a joke in this day and age. You really think its going to end well. It worked in yhe 1700s when you all had muskets but you think it would work today with drones etc
You'd be surprised. There's people running around with most of what the military has. I'm sure we'd probably lose, but the rest of the world would be watching, and enemies of your enemies become friends.
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Old 04-13-2016, 08:18 AM   #56
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Actually, because the populace outnumbers the military by such a wide margin it makes a coup by force more challengeing, especially when you factor that the American populace is so heavily armed...

But getting back on point...

Coach Payton broke one of his golden rules - never take to social media under emotional duress; and am disappointed he did that, but it just shows human he is...

And while I appreciate his honesty and heart-felt hurt over the loss of Will Smith, he should no better...

However, as his adopted home city, we should being doing a better job of sharing and showing our values and why we're better than say, Illinois...

Really surprised no one has stepped up and invited him to a shooting range or armorers club where he could become educated on firearms; futher, I'd hope he'd find, what I've learned from experience, that many of the members and regulars in firearms ranges, clubs are some of the finest, most well-grounded citizens you could ever hope to meet...

In fact, being around many of these people, you will find they have as deep and healthy an appreciation of life and civil liberties of any human beings you will come to associate...

It is my prayer that Coach Payton has, and seizes, such an opportunity should it present itself for him...

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Old 04-13-2016, 09:28 AM   #57
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

It's funny that reading this thread tells me the same people who think Mr. Payton was wrong in voicing his opinion, a constitutional right by the way, are doing so because he spoke out against another constitutional right, owning guns. Hypocrisy much? LOL.
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Old 04-13-2016, 09:37 AM   #58
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by Cruize View Post
It's funny that reading this thread tells me the same people who think Mr. Payton was wrong in voicing his opinion, a constitutional right by the way, are doing so because he spoke out against another constitutional right, owning guns. Hypocrisy much? LOL.
He wasn't criticized for voicing his opinion, he was criticized for his stance on guns. its our constitutional right to voice our opinion of his opinion.

No hypocrisy at all.
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:24 AM   #59
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

And to add to what Danno said well - nobody is criticizing SP if he wants nothing to do with guns or doesn't want one to protect his family - fine and dandy - that's his choice as an American.

He's also perfectly within his rights to say he hates guns. I hate beets. Other people hate asparagus - it's a free country (somewhat) - we can love/hate inanimate objects all we want.


Where Sean crosses the line is when he calls for ME not to have a gun to protect MY family.

If some thug kicks open my door and threatens my family is Sean going to hop in a private jet and come help me? Or pay for a security guard to walk around my house at night? Somehow I doubt it...

Our men and women in blue do a fantastic job - but they are few in number, and best case 10 minutes from my house. A lot of bad things can be done by some bastard who cares nothing for life in 10 minutes...


And "PS" - you want the CORRECT perspective on this, don't listen to me but listen to Drew Brees' interview with Deke on WWL from 4/11. Drew tells people the problem - IT'S THE PEOPLE, not the instrument with which they commit evil that are the problem...
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Old 04-13-2016, 01:09 PM   #60
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Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'

Originally Posted by SloMotion View Post
It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.



I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.



I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.



Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.



I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, . I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, . One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. .



Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.
I hear you man, and I agree about not passing off responsibility of the people who commit the crimes. That's a point that I've tried to stress. I don't ever say that because a person was subject to this, or neglected of that, that they aren't responsible for the choices they make. My point is only that I think murderers have to be seriously messed up in the head, to put it simply. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has regrets, but taking a life (unless it is actually in self defense) shows a lack of humanity. It's just total, unadulterated rage. And there are any number of reasons that could lead to that. None of which provide a valid excuse.

As far as the possibility of Hayes knowing of Ceravolo and Smith being friends, my premise is that Hayes may have been tracking Ceravolo and saw them hanging out that night. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but I'm trying to make some kind of sense (not that it will ever really make sense) out of why you would shoot a guy over so little, and how it could be a coincidence that Will Smith was hanging out with the guy who Hayes is suing for the death of his father, and then gets shot by Hayes just a short time later.

The gun in Smith's car was an incredibly late detail added to this, that definitely changed the possible scenarios. I still haven't heard anything that makes me believe that Hayes had any right to shoot him, but the fact that Smith at least had a gun, opens up possibilities of how it got out of hand. I expected to hear more details in the following days, but I didn't expect to hear so far after the fact that there was another gun. I don't get why that took so long to be discovered, or reported.
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If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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