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Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by blackangold They just don't seem to get it... We should be spending money on guys in the front 7. Always over paying for skilled players. Would like to see what we could do with a pass rush... ...

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Old 03-14-2017, 03:17 PM   #51
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

Originally Posted by blackangold View Post
They just don't seem to get it...
We should be spending money on guys in the front 7. Always over paying for skilled players. Would like to see what we could do with a pass rush...
In all fairness, besides Donta Hightower, there's really no one left to sign up front. That's why I hope we keep both 1st round picks, spend both on front 7 defensive picks.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:18 PM   #52
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

It's glaringly apparent that the Saints are trying to win it all this year while Brees is still here. They're going all out for it. I was concerned with us overpaying for Butler, but not so much anymore. If we make all these improvements and still can't go deep in the playoffs it's time to let Brees move on. That'll open up plenty of cap right there.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:23 PM   #53
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

Originally Posted by ScottF View Post
Man, a lot of people really have a lot of faith in our drafting skills.
I'd much rather have a 27 year old starter than another Cie Grant Jonathan Sullivan Usama Young Sedric Ellis and 5 different CB's

Jonathan Vilma for a second was one of our best deals ever
I disagree with you on the basis that your comparison is not apples to apples... And a few other things. I wouldn't say that I trust our drafting, at all. I'd love to have proven commodities. But I have a couple of problems with Butler. He does not play a position of need for us. As I said earlier, I realize that we have to count on Williams and Breaux to stay healthy, but when they're out there, they are pretty good. They aren't perfect, but they are also young. Injuries can happen to anyone. It's not like they blew out their knees. Williams is coming off a significant concussion which becomes problematic if he has too many of those, but as of now he should be a full go.

Do we really need to shell out a high draft pick for another corner? Here's another problem I have with Butler: He comes from a system that is known to make players look better than they are. What makes us so sure that he is a "proven" commodity? And others have mentioned, accurately, that Butler also hasn't matched up very much with the other team's number 1, and plays in a weak division for QB's. Again, is he really THAT proven? Sure, the draft is a crap shoot. How much better have we fared with free agents and trades? Remember guys like Tebucky Jones and Dwight Smith? Those were "can't miss" guys, as was Jairus Byrd, whom most of us thought was a star at the time. Jason David? Aubrayo Franklin, Sean Rogers, David Hawthorne and on it goes.

I would certainly say that Loomis and company doesn't have the greatest track record in identifying "stars" but despite that, it is nevertheless necessary to take calculated risks from time to time. You mentioned the Vilma deal, and that was a great trade. For two reasons: One was that we didn't give up all that much. The other was that we desperately needed a middle linebacker and a leader for a defense that was just atrocious. And, thankfully, he was one who lived up to expectations.

Butler, in my opinion, is not worth that kind of risk. For one, we're not talking about a second rounder, we're talking about the number 11 pick. I'm all for commodities over unknowns, but if we're not getting a pass rusher as that "proven commodity" then I'd rather keep my pick and take my chances with that. Because, as I illustrated with the failed signings, you never really know 100% what you are going to get from any player, anyway. But in any instance you should not sell out for something that isn't of great need.

When we traded for Mike McKenzie all those years ago, that was a great deal. We needed a corner desperately, and he was a really good player. Unfortunately the rest of the defense sucked for a couple of years, but he was a huge upgrade. We are thin as crap at DE right now. Selling our top pick for a corner seems like a bad idea at the moment.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:28 PM   #54
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

And obviously Drew Brees was a home run, but that goes without saying. They don't make ALL bad moves. They actually made some really good one's, once upon a time.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:29 PM   #55
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
I disagree with you on the basis that your comparison is not apples to apples... And a few other things. I wouldn't say that I trust our drafting, at all. I'd love to have proven commodities. But I have a couple of problems with Butler. He does not play a position of need for us. As I said earlier, I realize that we have to count on Williams and Breaux to stay healthy, but when they're out there, they are pretty good. They aren't perfect, but they are also young. Injuries can happen to anyone. It's not like they blew out their knees. Williams is coming off a significant concussion which becomes problematic if he has too many of those, but as of now he should be a full go.

Do we really need to shell out a high draft pick for another corner? Here's another problem I have with Butler: He comes from a system that is known to make players look better than they are. What makes us so sure that he is a "proven" commodity? And others have mentioned, accurately, that Butler also hasn't matched up very much with the other team's number 1, and plays in a weak division for QB's. Again, is he really THAT proven? Sure, the draft is a crap shoot. How much better have we fared with free agents and trades? Remember guys like Tebucky Jones and Dwight Smith? Those were "can't miss" guys, as was Jairus Byrd, whom most of us thought was a star at the time. Jason David? Aubrayo Franklin, Sean Rogers, David Hawthorne and on it goes.

I would certainly say that Loomis and company doesn't have the greatest track record in identifying "stars" but despite that, it is nevertheless necessary to take calculated risks from time to time. You mentioned the Vilma deal, and that was a great trade. For two reasons: One was that we didn't give up all that much. The other was that we desperately needed a middle linebacker and a leader for a defense that was just atrocious. And, thankfully, he was one who lived up to expectations.

Butler, in my opinion, is not worth that kind of risk. For one, we're not talking about a second rounder, we're talking about the number 11 pick. I'm all for commodities over unknowns, but if we're not getting a pass rusher as that "proven commodity" then I'd rather keep my pick and take my chances with that. Because, as I illustrated with the failed signings, you never really know 100% what you are going to get from any player, anyway. But in any instance you should not sell out for something that isn't of great need.

When we traded for Mike McKenzie all those years ago, that was a great deal. We needed a corner desperately, and he was a really good player. Unfortunately the rest of the defense sucked for a couple of years, but he was a huge upgrade. We are thin as crap at DE right now. Selling our top pick for a corner seems like a bad idea at the moment.
The Saints are talking about giving up a 1st for Butler.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:32 PM   #56
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

For you stat geeks, in 2016 Butler was the #3 cover corner by PFF (91.1)

The stat website also listed him as the #4 overall corner (90.4)

That's far from being a "system guy". And if he signs we have the best CB tandem since Porter & Greer.

I'm warming up.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:33 PM   #57
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

Originally Posted by rezburna View Post
The Saints are talking about giving up a 1st for Butler.
I know. I just wrote an essay, basically, on why I don't like that.

And it isn't just talk. If the Saints actually want Butler, they have no choice. The Patriots are not going to match any offer we make, and we all know it. That means we give up our #11, automatically.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:35 PM   #58
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

Which is why they wont make an offer
They will see what he wants and if they can come to terms before speaking to the Pats regarding a trade. No point making the trade if you cant agree a contract first
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:37 PM   #59
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 View Post
For you stat geeks, in 2016 Butler was the #3 cover corner by PFF (91.1)

The stat website also listed him as the #4 overall corner (90.4)

That's far from being a "system guy". And if he signs we have the best CB tandem since Porter & Greer.

I'm warming up.
Thanks for trying to butter up this Butler hype for the doubters, such as myself. But PFF grades are utterly meaningless. They have no ability to test for whether a guy is better because of his system or not. And when he isn't facing off against number 1's, how do you fairly compare him to other top corners? You can't. This is just one of many flaws with PFF.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:39 PM   #60
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Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

Originally Posted by lee909 View Post
Which is why they wont make an offer
They will see what he wants and if they can come to terms before speaking to the Pats regarding a trade. No point making the trade if you cant agree a contract first
Yes, of course the Saints will work out a deal. And the Patriots won't match that offer. Meaning we lose our #11 pick. What are you getting at?
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