Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick

saintfan · 04-13-2010, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by falconhater

Ben has not been proven innocent in either case..CHECK YOUR FACTS!!!

So, you see, in America you're innocent until proven guilty, you are not assumed guilty until proven innocent. You know, that thing about the 'burden of proof'?

There are two people that know what happened. I'm not one of them, and neither are you. Witch hunts went out a LONG time ago, and vigilante justice has no place in this country.

Welcome to America Jack!

strato · 04-13-2010, 08:18 AM

Ben is a scumbag...he will get his soon enough...

Tobias-Reiper · 04-13-2010, 11:44 AM

... I always thought the saying "innocent until proven guilty" misleading, since there's no "innocent" verdict... you are either found guilty or found not guilty, but never declared innocent.. and while the burden of proof is on the accuser, the accused still has to disprove the accuser's evidence, ergo having to prove his/her innocence. You never hear prosecutors say they didn't pursue a case because the accused was "innocent", it is always "not enough evidence to charge"...

... anyway, this is what? the 3rd allegation of sexual misconduct? He's half way to PacMan Jones' status, as (IIRC) he had 6 different criminal allegations against him... of course, he's innocent as well

CantonLegend · 04-13-2010, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

... I always thought the saying "innocent until proven guilty" misleading, since there's no "innocent" verdict... you are either found guilty or found not guilty, but never declared innocent.. and while the burden of proof is on the accuser, the accused still has to disprove the accuser's evidence, ergo having to prove his/her innocence. You never hear prosecutors say they didn't pursue a case because the accused was "innocent", it is always "not enough evidence to charge"...

... anyway, this is what? the 3rd allegation of sexual misconduct? He's half way to PacMan Jones' status, as (IIRC) he had 6 different criminal allegations against him... of course, he's innocent as well

you still have to defend yourself....thats why it is called the defense

the prosecutor must present evidence that you have done the crime and the evidence must prove to the judge/jury that the defense is in fact guilty of the crime they are being accused of

because there would be no case without prosecution, the judge/jury must find the defendant not guilty of the charges in order to validate innocence

thats the thinking behind it whether we agree with it or not

Tobias-Reiper · 04-13-2010, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

you still have to defend yourself....thats why it is called the defense

the prosecutor must present evidence that you have done the crime and the evidence must prove to the judge/jury that the defense is in fact guilty of the crime they are being accused of

because there would be no case without prosecution, the judge/jury must find the defendant not guilty of the charges in order to validate innocence

We were doing ok until that

Courts never find you "innocent" or "validate your innoncence". You are either found guilty or found not guilty based on evidence presented; whether you are innocent or not, that's another story.
Even when there's no prosecution, they will never say "the accused is innocent", only state "not enough evidence to charge".

CantonLegend · 04-13-2010, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

We were doing ok until that
Courts never find you "innocent" or "validate your innoncence". You are either found guilty or found not guilty based on evidence presented; whether you are innocent or not, that's another story.
Even when there's no prosecution, they will never say "the accused is innocent", only a "not enough evidence to charge".

its just language.....not guilty means the prosecutor was wrong or didnt present enough evidence to prove you were guilty

the not guilty ruling is just language.....all it means is that we know you are innocent(thereby validating innocence)

you can say you are innocent.....and you are assumed innocent....but you have not been proven innocent......the not guilty ruling just says that there is no reason to believe you arent innocent

Tobias-Reiper · 04-13-2010, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

its just language.....not guilty means the prosecutor was wrong or didnt present enough evidence to prove you were guilty

the not guilty ruling is just language.....all it means is that we know you are innocent(thereby validating innocence)

you can say you are innocent.....and you are assumed innocent....but you have not been proven innocent......the not guilty ruling just says that there is no reason to believe you arent innocent

er.. no. Being found not guilty does not mean the prosecutor was wrong, nor does it mean we "know" you are innocent. "Found not guiity as charged" is NOT just language. There is a whole bunch of legal reasons behind that specific language, but I don't think this is the forum to discuss this.

SAINT_MICHAEL · 04-13-2010, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

the not guilty ruling is just language.....all it means is that we know you are innocent(thereby validating innocence)

Not guilty does not mean we know you are innocent. Not guilty means the prosecution has not proven guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

There have been trials where jury members have stated after the case that they believe a defendant committed the crime they were accused of, but the prosecution did not do a good enough job of overcoming the definition of reasonable doubt. Therefore they had to find not guilty (Tobias is right...they do not say you are innocent).

There have also been cases where a defendant was found guilty, but the verdict was overturned on appeal because of mishandling or misrepresentation of evidence during the case. This can happen on a judge’s ruling and have nothing to do with a jury hearing the facts of a case. In neither one of these instances is the defendant innocent. But because of legal definitions they cannot be found guilty.

This also goes into why we have civil and criminal courts in our system. Civil courts do not have the same stringent requirements as criminal courts do. This is why a certain white bronco driving ex-NFL player was found not guilty in a legal trial, but in a civil trial was forced to pay millions in compensatory and punitive damages to the suvivors of two murder victims.

saintfan · 04-13-2010, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

We were doing ok until that
Courts never find you "innocent" or "validate your innoncence". You are either found guilty or found not guilty based on evidence presented; whether you are innocent or not, that's another story.
Even when there's no prosecution, they will never say "the accused is innocent", only state "not enough evidence to charge".

It isn't the prosecutors job to prove you innocent, only to prove you guilty, which is why "not enough evidence to charge" is the language used.

If it were the other way around - if the DA's job was to prove you innocent, the wording would be different.

strato · 04-13-2010, 12:14 PM

I think this is Bens last chance...he messes up again and he wont walk so easy....wait..i forgot he's rich famous and has the money to buy people off..

04-13-2010, 12:15 PM	#1
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Originally Posted by falconhater Ben has not been proven innocent in either case..CHECK YOUR FACTS!!! So, you see, in America you're innocent until proven guilty, you are not assumed guilty until proven innocent. You know, that thing about the 'burden of proof'? There are two people that know what happened. I'm not one of them, and neither are you. Witch hunts went out a LONG time ago, and vigilante justice has no place in this country. Welcome to America Jack!

04-13-2010, 08:18 AM	#2
strato Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Little Ole Town in Tejas" Posts: 7,586	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Ben is a scumbag...he will get his soon enough...

04-13-2010, 11:44 AM	#3
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick ... I always thought the saying "innocent until proven guilty" misleading, since there's no "innocent" verdict... you are either found guilty or found not guilty, but never declared innocent.. and while the burden of proof is on the accuser, the accused still has to disprove the accuser's evidence, ergo having to prove his/her innocence. You never hear prosecutors say they didn't pursue a case because the accused was "innocent", it is always "not enough evidence to charge"... ... anyway, this is what? the 3rd allegation of sexual misconduct? He's half way to PacMan Jones' status, as (IIRC) he had 6 different criminal allegations against him... of course, he's innocent as well
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

04-13-2010, 12:12 PM	#4
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper ... I always thought the saying "innocent until proven guilty" misleading, since there's no "innocent" verdict... you are either found guilty or found not guilty, but never declared innocent.. and while the burden of proof is on the accuser, the accused still has to disprove the accuser's evidence, ergo having to prove his/her innocence. You never hear prosecutors say they didn't pursue a case because the accused was "innocent", it is always "not enough evidence to charge"... ... anyway, this is what? the 3rd allegation of sexual misconduct? He's half way to PacMan Jones' status, as (IIRC) he had 6 different criminal allegations against him... of course, he's innocent as well you still have to defend yourself....thats why it is called the defense the prosecutor must present evidence that you have done the crime and the evidence must prove to the judge/jury that the defense is in fact guilty of the crime they are being accused of because there would be no case without prosecution, the judge/jury must find the defendant not guilty of the charges in order to validate innocence thats the thinking behind it whether we agree with it or not

04-13-2010, 12:36 PM	#5
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Originally Posted by CantonLegend you still have to defend yourself....thats why it is called the defense the prosecutor must present evidence that you have done the crime and the evidence must prove to the judge/jury that the defense is in fact guilty of the crime they are being accused of because there would be no case without prosecution, the judge/jury must find the defendant not guilty of the charges in order to validate innocence We were doing ok until that Courts never find you "innocent" or "validate your innoncence". You are either found guilty or found not guilty based on evidence presented; whether you are innocent or not, that's another story. Even when there's no prosecution, they will never say "the accused is innocent", only state "not enough evidence to charge".
	Last edited by Tobias-Reiper; 04-13-2010 at 12:39 PM..

04-13-2010, 12:41 PM	#6
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper We were doing ok until that Courts never find you "innocent" or "validate your innoncence". You are either found guilty or found not guilty based on evidence presented; whether you are innocent or not, that's another story. Even when there's no prosecution, they will never say "the accused is innocent", only a "not enough evidence to charge". its just language.....not guilty means the prosecutor was wrong or didnt present enough evidence to prove you were guilty the not guilty ruling is just language.....all it means is that we know you are innocent(thereby validating innocence) you can say you are innocent.....and you are assumed innocent....but you have not been proven innocent......the not guilty ruling just says that there is no reason to believe you arent innocent

04-13-2010, 01:08 PM	#7
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Originally Posted by CantonLegend its just language.....not guilty means the prosecutor was wrong or didnt present enough evidence to prove you were guilty the not guilty ruling is just language.....all it means is that we know you are innocent(thereby validating innocence) you can say you are innocent.....and you are assumed innocent....but you have not been proven innocent......the not guilty ruling just says that there is no reason to believe you arent innocent er.. no. Being found not guilty does not mean the prosecutor was wrong, nor does it mean we "know" you are innocent. "Found not guiity as charged" is NOT just language. There is a whole bunch of legal reasons behind that specific language, but I don't think this is the forum to discuss this.

04-13-2010, 01:29 PM	#8
SAINT_MICHAEL 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 446	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Originally Posted by CantonLegend the not guilty ruling is just language.....all it means is that we know you are innocent(thereby validating innocence) Not guilty does not mean we know you are innocent. Not guilty means the prosecution has not proven guilt beyond reasonable doubt. There have been trials where jury members have stated after the case that they believe a defendant committed the crime they were accused of, but the prosecution did not do a good enough job of overcoming the definition of reasonable doubt. Therefore they had to find not guilty (Tobias is right...they do not say you are innocent). There have also been cases where a defendant was found guilty, but the verdict was overturned on appeal because of mishandling or misrepresentation of evidence during the case. This can happen on a judge’s ruling and have nothing to do with a jury hearing the facts of a case. In neither one of these instances is the defendant innocent. But because of legal definitions they cannot be found guilty. This also goes into why we have civil and criminal courts in our system. Civil courts do not have the same stringent requirements as criminal courts do. This is why a certain white bronco driving ex-NFL player was found not guilty in a legal trial, but in a civil trial was forced to pay millions in compensatory and punitive damages to the suvivors of two murder victims.
SAINT_MICHAEL 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 446

04-13-2010, 12:44 PM	#9
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper We were doing ok until that Courts never find you "innocent" or "validate your innoncence". You are either found guilty or found not guilty based on evidence presented; whether you are innocent or not, that's another story. Even when there's no prosecution, they will never say "the accused is innocent", only state "not enough evidence to charge". It isn't the prosecutors job to prove you innocent, only to prove you guilty, which is why "not enough evidence to charge" is the language used. If it were the other way around - if the DA's job was to prove you innocent, the wording would be different.

04-13-2010, 12:14 PM	#10
strato Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Little Ole Town in Tejas" Posts: 7,586	Re: Steelers trade Holmes to Jets for fifth-round draft pick I think this is Bens last chance...he messes up again and he wont walk so easy....wait..i forgot he's rich famous and has the money to buy people off..