Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted

TheOak · 02-11-2014, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by ClintSaints

To the people saying basically - he should shut up about it because it's irrelevant:

I truly look forward to the day when this isn't even a discussion anymore.

Chase your self around the chair much?

Originally Posted by ClintSaints

If it's so irrelevant then why do you care?

Many relevant discussions have been had about irrelevant actions.

Originally Posted by ClintSaints

Um, why is Tom Brady broadcasting his straightness when he shows up at public events with Gisele? Whenever a straight football player gets married or shows up at public events with his spouse he is automatically broadcasting to the world that he's straight.

It's a double standard to say in one breath it's fine and acceptable for straight football players to broadcast their straightness, and then turn around and say, "Hey why did this gay person come out? We don't need that broadcasted. We didn't need to know that."

I know quite a few gay men and hetero females that would debate you on Tom Brady being straight. Marriage to the opposite sex is not a litmus test for being gay or straight. As far as for broadcasting it, standing in front of a podium with reporters is broadcasting. Showing up with your significant other is not.

Originally Posted by ClintSaints

It's automatically assumed that somehow when a person says they're gay, they're saying what they like to do in the bedroom, and we don't need to know that.

Yes it is assumed because that is the text book definition of homosexuality.
Merriam Webster: Homosexual ~ sexually attracted to people of the same sex.
Unless what you are implying that he was letting the world know he is "happy"?

Originally Posted by ClintSaints

As for me, I could not possibly be prouder of Michael Sam. It takes some brass to come out before the draft and to be "the first one". He's just a mid-rounder and this could easily affect his stock. It's likely someone will pick him up, but he'll probably fall a couple rounds below where he would have gone.

His draft stock has already fallen and it is not because he is gay. Head coaches want to win. Coaches like Sean Payton and Bill Belichick do not care what his sexual orientation is. They could care less, they just want to win. They also want players that know that winning isn't about them, it is about the team. Sam basically just stood up and said 'what is important right now is me'. Teo' caused a lot of drama before the draft, it hurt him. Getting arrested or getting a DWI before the draft hurts players also.

burningmetal · 02-11-2014, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by alleycat_126

irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse.....

Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol.....

Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? I don't get any special treatment for being straight, but this guy sure will for being gay, and don't even tell me you don't know what I'm talking about.

The pressure is far more on people like me who disagree with that lifestyle. I don't have much in the way of freedom of speech when it comes this type of subject. But this guy decides to come out and tell the world something that no one was previously the least bit concerned with, and he is now being treated as a hero.

Euphoria · 02-11-2014, 09:05 AM

Your sex life is none of my business.

TheOak · 02-11-2014, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by ScottF

In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no.
From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference.
End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful.

Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time

here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's.

List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be.

Originally Posted by alleycat_126

That may apply to every other job in every other arena, but not in any NFL, or NBA locker rooms... There's hazing, as we found there's bullying...and you don't have to be anything but different in order to be a victim of it..... This is just as relevant as breaking through barriers for race, religion, or gender...... This transcends sports....... BTW, And I am not trying to argue with you, or lash out against you.... You have a point, and so do I.... that is all....

If you wanna say something, just say it.... Im neutral, it's irrelevant. your analogies are conundrums in there own right... LOL....

Rookies are hazed period... Not because they are gay, or have webbed toes, those are just the vehicles used to pick at a perceived weak spot. So should Michael Sam not be hazed just because he is gay?

My thought process has a little more detachment than most. What I see here are three distinct items.
~ First item being pure job performance, and in regards to that being gay is irrelevant. It does not effect how he plays the game.
~ Secondly is the locker-room and that is all about acceptance by his peers which I believe what he has done actually hurts him more than help him.
~ Lastly is on the field but not in regards to play but the smack talk that happens. No matter how much his locker room accepts him being gay, it will not translate well for him on the field.

This is just my opinion but he has set himself up to fail. Rosa Parks bought a ticket, got on, and sat down. Wade Davis played in the NFL and after playing came out and said he was gay. Those are two examples of how you do something first and then come out to show that the prejudices were not warranted. An ex Nazi doesn't show up to a Bar Mitzva with a red band around his arm to prove he is harmless, he will never get a fair chance. He shows up dressed normally, participates, then afterwards if he has something to prove tells everyone "this is what I am or was and you have nothing to fear or hate".

If we are talking about gay rights and laws that effect the same, Michael Sam did nothing to effect that cause, as there are no laws preventing him from playing in the NFL. If we are talking about acceptance; well then there isn't much that can be done to force that is there? As a society we tend to paint things in a rather broad brush stroke but the reality is much different. Not every agreement or disagreement is filled with passion to the point of love, hate, or fear. What creates the problem is the forceful nature of which "some" items are handled. You can no more force someone to embrace homosexuality as you can to force someone to embrace and accept the way some Seattle Seahawk fans act.

I do not believe people should have to prove that they are benign to be accepted but they want to, and there is a way to go about doing that.

Back to the broad brush: To state that all disagreement with homosexuality is because of fear and that fear is based on ignorance or narrow mind; is to deny the damage that has been done by many Catholic Priests for many years... It is just as narrow minded as saying all homosexuals are bad, all conservatives are racist, women cant drive... The persecution or defense of any group as a whole is flawed.

I do not question gays, I question people with agendas....

TheOak · 02-11-2014, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

Your sex life is none of my business.

Come on man! I was just about to share.

This isnt Penthouse forum? LOL

SapperSaint · 02-11-2014, 09:27 AM

I look at it this way; SO WHAT!

My beliefs do not agree with homosexuality. I do respect a person PRIVATE and personal space. I don't think Sam is a "Hero" for the gay/Les community or for the Human race for that matter.

The real problem with it that I have is all of the "You must be tolerant to others. But if you don't believe what we believe then youre a bigot and you need to be removed from society.". Well, I have only one response for that. EAT ME!

This kid is a good football player. Even if he was a good lawyer, a good Soldier, or a good garbage man. BE THAT. Some of these people that preach tolerance are the worst offenders about "Labeling" people. "He's a couragous BLACK/WHITE/ASIAN/MONGOLOID for the whatever community.

Why can't this guy just be a good football player and that be the end of it?

ScottF · 02-11-2014, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore?

um, 36 states, the Federal government (DOMA), Chick-fil-a, Urban Oufitters, Putin, Ahmadinejad, the Boy Scouts, and high school jocks everywhere

Do you seriously believe you are more persecuted for your beliefs than a gay person is for their lifestyle?

and by 'anymore', do you mean that the persecution should continue?

halloween 65 · 02-11-2014, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? I don't get any special treatment for being straight, but this guy sure will for being gay, and don't even tell me you don't know what I'm talking about.

The pressure is far more on people like me who disagree with that lifestyle. I don't have much in the way of freedom of speech when it comes this type of subject. But this guy decides to come out and tell the world something that no one was previously the least bit concerned with, and he is now being treated as a hero.

Very well said!! I could not agree more with this!!

SapperSaint · 02-11-2014, 09:48 AM

Chick fil a is a Christian based company. They prove that by not opening on Sunday. Will they still serve a gay customer? Yes they will. But no where does it say they HAVE TO support "GAY RIGHTS"

Same with the Boy Scouts. You have to be accepted into a Boy Scout Troop. You just can't join. They are Christian based as well.

I'm sorry to say this; but we don't have to accept and bend to the will of the minority. I do believe we need to respect the minority but not change everything because 10% of the popu don't "Fit in". Just like going into a resturant in MS and having spanish on the menu. Hispanics to not even come close to 15% of the popu.

I will say this. Gay/Les comunity have had no hardships compaired to the black comunity had to endure. I've yet to see gay drinking fountains, gay restrooms, gay sections in restuants, gays can't vote. gays only work for below federal wages. I'll stop there.

The gay/Les comunity need to get off of their high horse and just be what they are. Productive members of society and stop trying to force feed the rest of the world into there bidding.

TheOak · 02-11-2014, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by ScottF

um, 36 states, the Federal government (DOMA), Chick-fil-a, Urban Oufitters, Putin, Ahmadinejad, the Boy Scouts, and high school jocks everywhere

Do you seriously believe you are more persecuted for your beliefs than a gay person is for their lifestyle?

and by 'anymore', do you mean that the persecution should continue?

Should the persecution continue?
You left out "gun nuts"... For some reason owning multiple guns makes you a nut but owning multiple cameras makes you a photographer.

Before you comment about guns that are used in crimes... Child Pornography is much more rampant locally and globally.

02-11-2014, 08:06 AM	#21
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by ClintSaints To the people saying basically - he should shut up about it because it's irrelevant: I truly look forward to the day when this isn't even a discussion anymore. Chase your self around the chair much? Originally Posted by ClintSaints If it's so irrelevant then why do you care? Many relevant discussions have been had about irrelevant actions. Originally Posted by ClintSaints Um, why is Tom Brady broadcasting his straightness when he shows up at public events with Gisele? Whenever a straight football player gets married or shows up at public events with his spouse he is automatically broadcasting to the world that he's straight. It's a double standard to say in one breath it's fine and acceptable for straight football players to broadcast their straightness, and then turn around and say, "Hey why did this gay person come out? We don't need that broadcasted. We didn't need to know that." I know quite a few gay men and hetero females that would debate you on Tom Brady being straight. Marriage to the opposite sex is not a litmus test for being gay or straight. As far as for broadcasting it, standing in front of a podium with reporters is broadcasting. Showing up with your significant other is not. Originally Posted by ClintSaints It's automatically assumed that somehow when a person says they're gay, they're saying what they like to do in the bedroom, and we don't need to know that. Yes it is assumed because that is the text book definition of homosexuality. Merriam Webster: Homosexual ~ sexually attracted to people of the same sex. Unless what you are implying that he was letting the world know he is "happy"? Originally Posted by ClintSaints As for me, I could not possibly be prouder of Michael Sam. It takes some brass to come out before the draft and to be "the first one". He's just a mid-rounder and this could easily affect his stock. It's likely someone will pick him up, but he'll probably fall a couple rounds below where he would have gone. His draft stock has already fallen and it is not because he is gay. Head coaches want to win. Coaches like Sean Payton and Bill Belichick do not care what his sexual orientation is. They could care less, they just want to win. They also want players that know that winning isn't about them, it is about the team. Sam basically just stood up and said 'what is important right now is me'. Teo' caused a lot of drama before the draft, it hurt him. Getting arrested or getting a DWI before the draft hurts players also.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-11-2014, 09:01 AM	#22
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by alleycat_126 irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse..... Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol..... Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? I don't get any special treatment for being straight, but this guy sure will for being gay, and don't even tell me you don't know what I'm talking about. The pressure is far more on people like me who disagree with that lifestyle. I don't have much in the way of freedom of speech when it comes this type of subject. But this guy decides to come out and tell the world something that no one was previously the least bit concerned with, and he is now being treated as a hero. halloween 65 and Mr.Riaton like this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

02-11-2014, 09:05 AM	#23
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Your sex life is none of my business.

02-11-2014, 09:14 AM	#24
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by ScottF In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no. From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference. End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful. Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's. List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be. Originally Posted by alleycat_126 That may apply to every other job in every other arena, but not in any NFL, or NBA locker rooms... There's hazing, as we found there's bullying...and you don't have to be anything but different in order to be a victim of it..... This is just as relevant as breaking through barriers for race, religion, or gender...... This transcends sports....... BTW, And I am not trying to argue with you, or lash out against you.... You have a point, and so do I.... that is all.... If you wanna say something, just say it.... Im neutral, it's irrelevant. your analogies are conundrums in there own right... LOL.... Rookies are hazed period... Not because they are gay, or have webbed toes, those are just the vehicles used to pick at a perceived weak spot. So should Michael Sam not be hazed just because he is gay? My thought process has a little more detachment than most. What I see here are three distinct items. ~ First item being pure job performance, and in regards to that being gay is irrelevant. It does not effect how he plays the game. ~ Secondly is the locker-room and that is all about acceptance by his peers which I believe what he has done actually hurts him more than help him. ~ Lastly is on the field but not in regards to play but the smack talk that happens. No matter how much his locker room accepts him being gay, it will not translate well for him on the field. This is just my opinion but he has set himself up to fail. Rosa Parks bought a ticket, got on, and sat down. Wade Davis played in the NFL and after playing came out and said he was gay. Those are two examples of how you do something first and then come out to show that the prejudices were not warranted. An ex Nazi doesn't show up to a Bar Mitzva with a red band around his arm to prove he is harmless, he will never get a fair chance. He shows up dressed normally, participates, then afterwards if he has something to prove tells everyone "this is what I am or was and you have nothing to fear or hate". If we are talking about gay rights and laws that effect the same, Michael Sam did nothing to effect that cause, as there are no laws preventing him from playing in the NFL. If we are talking about acceptance; well then there isn't much that can be done to force that is there? As a society we tend to paint things in a rather broad brush stroke but the reality is much different. Not every agreement or disagreement is filled with passion to the point of love, hate, or fear. What creates the problem is the forceful nature of which "some" items are handled. You can no more force someone to embrace homosexuality as you can to force someone to embrace and accept the way some Seattle Seahawk fans act. I do not believe people should have to prove that they are benign to be accepted but they want to, and there is a way to go about doing that. Back to the broad brush: To state that all disagreement with homosexuality is because of fear and that fear is based on ignorance or narrow mind; is to deny the damage that has been done by many Catholic Priests for many years... It is just as narrow minded as saying all homosexuals are bad, all conservatives are racist, women cant drive... The persecution or defense of any group as a whole is flawed. I do not question gays, I question people with agendas....
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-11-2014, 09:15 AM	#25
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by Euphoria Your sex life is none of my business. Come on man! I was just about to share. This isnt Penthouse forum? LOL

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02-11-2014, 09:27 AM	#26
SapperSaint Pink Nightmare Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 3,028 Blog Entries: 7	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted I look at it this way; SO WHAT! My beliefs do not agree with homosexuality. I do respect a person PRIVATE and personal space. I don't think Sam is a "Hero" for the gay/Les community or for the Human race for that matter. The real problem with it that I have is all of the "You must be tolerant to others. But if you don't believe what we believe then youre a bigot and you need to be removed from society.". Well, I have only one response for that. EAT ME! This kid is a good football player. Even if he was a good lawyer, a good Soldier, or a good garbage man. BE THAT. Some of these people that preach tolerance are the worst offenders about "Labeling" people. "He's a couragous BLACK/WHITE/ASIAN/MONGOLOID for the whatever community. Why can't this guy just be a good football player and that be the end of it? burningmetal and Mr.Riaton like this.
	"We are number one. All others are number two, or lower." -The Sphinx http://blackandgold.com/groups/28-ou...tsman-s-corner

02-11-2014, 09:30 AM	#27
ScottF 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,324	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by burningmetal Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? um, 36 states, the Federal government (DOMA), Chick-fil-a, Urban Oufitters, Putin, Ahmadinejad, the Boy Scouts, and high school jocks everywhere Do you seriously believe you are more persecuted for your beliefs than a gay person is for their lifestyle? and by 'anymore', do you mean that the persecution should continue?

02-11-2014, 09:35 AM	#28
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by burningmetal Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? I don't get any special treatment for being straight, but this guy sure will for being gay, and don't even tell me you don't know what I'm talking about. The pressure is far more on people like me who disagree with that lifestyle. I don't have much in the way of freedom of speech when it comes this type of subject. But this guy decides to come out and tell the world something that no one was previously the least bit concerned with, and he is now being treated as a hero. Very well said!! I could not agree more with this!!

02-11-2014, 09:48 AM	#29
SapperSaint Pink Nightmare Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 3,028 Blog Entries: 7	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Chick fil a is a Christian based company. They prove that by not opening on Sunday. Will they still serve a gay customer? Yes they will. But no where does it say they HAVE TO support "GAY RIGHTS" Same with the Boy Scouts. You have to be accepted into a Boy Scout Troop. You just can't join. They are Christian based as well. I'm sorry to say this; but we don't have to accept and bend to the will of the minority. I do believe we need to respect the minority but not change everything because 10% of the popu don't "Fit in". Just like going into a resturant in MS and having spanish on the menu. Hispanics to not even come close to 15% of the popu. I will say this. Gay/Les comunity have had no hardships compaired to the black comunity had to endure. I've yet to see gay drinking fountains, gay restrooms, gay sections in restuants, gays can't vote. gays only work for below federal wages. I'll stop there. The gay/Les comunity need to get off of their high horse and just be what they are. Productive members of society and stop trying to force feed the rest of the world into there bidding. exile, frydaddy and rezburna like this.
	"We are number one. All others are number two, or lower." -The Sphinx http://blackandgold.com/groups/28-ou...tsman-s-corner

02-11-2014, 09:56 AM	#30
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by ScottF um, 36 states, the Federal government (DOMA), Chick-fil-a, Urban Oufitters, Putin, Ahmadinejad, the Boy Scouts, and high school jocks everywhere Do you seriously believe you are more persecuted for your beliefs than a gay person is for their lifestyle? and by 'anymore', do you mean that the persecution should continue? Should the persecution continue? You left out "gun nuts"... For some reason owning multiple guns makes you a nut but owning multiple cameras makes you a photographer. Before you comment about guns that are used in crimes... Child Pornography is much more rampant locally and globally.

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