Deshaun Watson to Saints?

rezburna · 03-19-2022, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

How can we criticize the terms that the Saints offered if we don't know what those terms were? Also, clearly the Saints' FO had defined limits as to what they were willing (or capable) to offer, and weren't willing to offer what the Browns did.

I really don't think the players supposedly involved and made aware of it hold a grudge or let hurt feelings to linger on. They are professionals and know what the deal is, and entering the FA period all of them udoubtedly, at least subconsciously, prepare for the possibility that they are switching teams.

Now, what happened with Mayfield and Ryan is different, especially the situation with Ryan.

You are correct that probably most of the anxiety created by the situation was amongst the fans, but that is nothing the Saints' FO should concern themselves with.

Very true. Saints “fans” were heavily trolling CJ about being traded and telling him he’s not worth more than Watson. They basically told him he was dispensable. We’re having conversations about the front office but with social media the players hear the people loud and clear. Like I said before, y’all don’t think Marcus Williams heard all the hate? Michael Thomas definitely hears it. So when these players say **** it and dip nobody can really be mad. Fans don’t often have loyalty to players.

FinSaint · 03-19-2022, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

Very true. Saints “fans” were heavily trolling CJ about being traded and telling him he’s not worth more than Watson. They basically told him he was dispensable. We’re having conversations about the front office but with social media the players hear the people loud and clear. Like I said before, y’all don’t think Marcus Williams heard all the hate? Michael Thomas definitely hears it. So when these players say **** it and dip nobody can really be mad. Fans don’t often have loyalty to players.

Exactly, and in my opinion, the Saints have shown by their past actions that they are loyal to their foundational players. On the other hand, they don't hesitate to ship out those who they feel are disruptive (right or wrong) as was the case with Cooks, Stills and Hicks.

It's a business, and players are commodities for the franchises, which is why fans should never be upset when players don't take a "hometown discount" to play for less than what they could get on the open market.

Most, if not all, of us are first and foremost fans of the team, and fandom of individual players can change greatly with their performance on the field, actions off the field and where they play. Same goes for the coaches and the front office. It's a shame some feel the need to seek out these individuals and vent their frustrations directly at them.

AsylumGuido · 03-19-2022, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

Loomis has been the GM for 20 years now - naturally he has made bad decisions during that time.

Byrd, Jason David, Browner and Spiller we all bad FA signings without a doubt.

As for 1st round picks - Sullivan was a big miss, but they picked Stinchcomb with the next pick in that draft. Meachem in the 1st round in 2007 was a miss as was that whole draft with the exception of Bushrod in the 4th. Ellis in 2008 ended up as a disappointment, but they did get Porter and Nicks in that draft. Vaccaro in 2013 wasn't a total failure and they got Armstead in the 3rd that year. 2015 with Peat and Anthony was a failure, especially if you look at the picks as a whole that year with P.J. Williams as the only bright spot. 2020 with Ruiz is a miss at the moment, but this coming season could still turn that around, and the same goes for Baun and Trautman.

Overall, in my opinion, they've had more successes with the high-priced FAs and high picks in the draft than on average in the league.

Also, how much of the FA decisions - especially the big splashes/misses - were driven by SP while Loomis and co were only left with finding a way to make it work fiscally?

I think most of the league is moving towards the way Saints are manipulating the cap numbers, and within a decade that might (will) become the norm of how to construct salary structures around the league.

And finally, if you are going to criticize the contracts Loomis has given - you also have to give him credit for the bad contracts he has chosen not to give with the latest example being Watson.

This right here!

TheOak · 03-20-2022, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

How can we criticize the terms that the Saints offered if we don't know what those terms were? Also, clearly the Saints' FO had defined limits as to what they were willing (or capable) to offer, and weren't willing to offer what the Browns did.

I really don't think the players supposedly involved and made aware of it hold a grudge or let hurt feelings to linger on. They are professionals and know what the deal is, and entering the FA period all of them udoubtedly, at least subconsciously, prepare for the possibility that they are switching teams.

Now, what happened with Mayfield and Ryan is different, especially the situation with Ryan.

You are correct that probably most of the anxiety created by the situation was amongst the fans, but that is nothing the Saints' FO should concern themselves with.

Your first paragraph. Not sure if there is a language barrier but I’ve never criticized the deal and haven’t mentioned what in the deal
Either good or bad because it’s unknown. I have no clue what you are going on about, I’ve not criticized it or tried to criticize the unknown.

About it being business and professionalism. When dealing with everything but players it’s 100% all about the terms and conditions on the paper (again if you missed it, I critiqued nothing here).

I agree that there are probably General Managers and coaches that look at players as horses at an auction and treat them as such. Keep them in the dark and then just give them a one liner and send them on their way.. Money Ball like. There are also true leaders in those positions that don’t just expect the horse to be professional, they lead lead by example. Professionalism means professional courtesy and treating your players/employees with humanity and respect. Those managers pick up the phone and take the 2 minutes to say “Ceedy, hard changes are coming. We value you and we do not intend on trading you. Things do not always go as planned but you now know as much as I know and we want to keep you as a Saint. You are hearing from me because I make the decisions and because when the Watson trade rumors hit the street, I want you to have the answers form me before you have questions to anyone else.” That two minutes gives him the knowledge to ignore social media, and deal with his family. Wait… did you forget that the business of trading in human equity more likely than not also involves uprooting a family? If you want to know how the family feels about it then go find Sproles’s wife’s tweets immediately after he was traded. If you are married then you understand that when your wife has a problem you share it.

I get your idealist outlook, perfect world, people behaving as they should, professionalism.. If all players behaved with professionalism, Deshaun Watson would not have been up for trade. If owners and GMs behaved professionally Watson wouldn’t have gone public about being lied to.

Usually it’s the Americans Horta trading under the name of business and the rest of the world trying g to remind them that humans and family’s are involved.

K Major · 03-20-2022, 11:33 AM

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...-minshew%3Famp

saintsfan1976 · 03-21-2022, 06:51 AM

5th rounder for Minshew?

voodooido · 03-22-2022, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

5th rounder for Minshew?

I’d rather stick with TS, Hill, or the draft

Boston Saint · 03-22-2022, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by voodooido

I’d rather stick with TS, Hill, or the draft

Not a Minshew man eh V?

voodooido · 03-22-2022, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Not a Minshew man eh V?

No I actually really like him. I just think ones that have been in the system have the advantage and come cheap. None but maybe a draft pick are a long term solution

shawnkytonk · 03-22-2022, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

5th rounder for Minshew?

I'd definitely pay a 5th for the mustache. He just has that moxie you want in a QB.

03-19-2022, 01:45 PM	#631
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 7,903	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by FinSaint How can we criticize the terms that the Saints offered if we don't know what those terms were? Also, clearly the Saints' FO had defined limits as to what they were willing (or capable) to offer, and weren't willing to offer what the Browns did. I really don't think the players supposedly involved and made aware of it hold a grudge or let hurt feelings to linger on. They are professionals and know what the deal is, and entering the FA period all of them udoubtedly, at least subconsciously, prepare for the possibility that they are switching teams. Now, what happened with Mayfield and Ryan is different, especially the situation with Ryan. You are correct that probably most of the anxiety created by the situation was amongst the fans, but that is nothing the Saints' FO should concern themselves with. Very true. Saints “fans” were heavily trolling CJ about being traded and telling him he’s not worth more than Watson. They basically told him he was dispensable. We’re having conversations about the front office but with social media the players hear the people loud and clear. Like I said before, y’all don’t think Marcus Williams heard all the hate? Michael Thomas definitely hears it. So when these players say **** it and dip nobody can really be mad. Fans don’t often have loyalty to players. AsylumGuido, The Dude, bobdog86 and 2 others like this.

03-19-2022, 02:50 PM	#632
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by rezburna Very true. Saints “fans” were heavily trolling CJ about being traded and telling him he’s not worth more than Watson. They basically told him he was dispensable. We’re having conversations about the front office but with social media the players hear the people loud and clear. Like I said before, y’all don’t think Marcus Williams heard all the hate? Michael Thomas definitely hears it. So when these players say **** it and dip nobody can really be mad. Fans don’t often have loyalty to players. Exactly, and in my opinion, the Saints have shown by their past actions that they are loyal to their foundational players. On the other hand, they don't hesitate to ship out those who they feel are disruptive (right or wrong) as was the case with Cooks, Stills and Hicks. It's a business, and players are commodities for the franchises, which is why fans should never be upset when players don't take a "hometown discount" to play for less than what they could get on the open market. Most, if not all, of us are first and foremost fans of the team, and fandom of individual players can change greatly with their performance on the field, actions off the field and where they play. Same goes for the coaches and the front office. It's a shame some feel the need to seek out these individuals and vent their frustrations directly at them.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

03-19-2022, 03:40 PM	#633
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,210	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by FinSaint Loomis has been the GM for 20 years now - naturally he has made bad decisions during that time. Byrd, Jason David, Browner and Spiller we all bad FA signings without a doubt. As for 1st round picks - Sullivan was a big miss, but they picked Stinchcomb with the next pick in that draft. Meachem in the 1st round in 2007 was a miss as was that whole draft with the exception of Bushrod in the 4th. Ellis in 2008 ended up as a disappointment, but they did get Porter and Nicks in that draft. Vaccaro in 2013 wasn't a total failure and they got Armstead in the 3rd that year. 2015 with Peat and Anthony was a failure, especially if you look at the picks as a whole that year with P.J. Williams as the only bright spot. 2020 with Ruiz is a miss at the moment, but this coming season could still turn that around, and the same goes for Baun and Trautman. Overall, in my opinion, they've had more successes with the high-priced FAs and high picks in the draft than on average in the league. Also, how much of the FA decisions - especially the big splashes/misses - were driven by SP while Loomis and co were only left with finding a way to make it work fiscally? I think most of the league is moving towards the way Saints are manipulating the cap numbers, and within a decade that might (will) become the norm of how to construct salary structures around the league. And finally, if you are going to criticize the contracts Loomis has given - you also have to give him credit for the bad contracts he has chosen not to give with the latest example being Watson. This right here!

03-20-2022, 11:03 AM	#634
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by FinSaint How can we criticize the terms that the Saints offered if we don't know what those terms were? Also, clearly the Saints' FO had defined limits as to what they were willing (or capable) to offer, and weren't willing to offer what the Browns did. I really don't think the players supposedly involved and made aware of it hold a grudge or let hurt feelings to linger on. They are professionals and know what the deal is, and entering the FA period all of them udoubtedly, at least subconsciously, prepare for the possibility that they are switching teams. Now, what happened with Mayfield and Ryan is different, especially the situation with Ryan. You are correct that probably most of the anxiety created by the situation was amongst the fans, but that is nothing the Saints' FO should concern themselves with. Your first paragraph. Not sure if there is a language barrier but I’ve never criticized the deal and haven’t mentioned what in the deal Either good or bad because it’s unknown. I have no clue what you are going on about, I’ve not criticized it or tried to criticize the unknown. About it being business and professionalism. When dealing with everything but players it’s 100% all about the terms and conditions on the paper (again if you missed it, I critiqued nothing here). I agree that there are probably General Managers and coaches that look at players as horses at an auction and treat them as such. Keep them in the dark and then just give them a one liner and send them on their way.. Money Ball like. There are also true leaders in those positions that don’t just expect the horse to be professional, they lead lead by example. Professionalism means professional courtesy and treating your players/employees with humanity and respect. Those managers pick up the phone and take the 2 minutes to say “Ceedy, hard changes are coming. We value you and we do not intend on trading you. Things do not always go as planned but you now know as much as I know and we want to keep you as a Saint. You are hearing from me because I make the decisions and because when the Watson trade rumors hit the street, I want you to have the answers form me before you have questions to anyone else.” That two minutes gives him the knowledge to ignore social media, and deal with his family. Wait… did you forget that the business of trading in human equity more likely than not also involves uprooting a family? If you want to know how the family feels about it then go find Sproles’s wife’s tweets immediately after he was traded. If you are married then you understand that when your wife has a problem you share it. I get your idealist outlook, perfect world, people behaving as they should, professionalism.. If all players behaved with professionalism, Deshaun Watson would not have been up for trade. If owners and GMs behaved professionally Watson wouldn’t have gone public about being lied to. Usually it’s the Americans Horta trading under the name of business and the rest of the world trying g to remind them that humans and family’s are involved. saintfan likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

03-20-2022, 11:33 AM	#635
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...-minshew%3Famp saintsfan1976 likes this.

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03-21-2022, 06:51 AM	#636
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,832 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? 5th rounder for Minshew? jeanpierre likes this.

03-22-2022, 03:03 PM	#637
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,766	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 5th rounder for Minshew? I’d rather stick with TS, Hill, or the draft
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,766

03-22-2022, 03:09 PM	#638
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by voodooido I’d rather stick with TS, Hill, or the draft Not a Minshew man eh V?

03-22-2022, 05:41 PM	#639
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,766	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by Boston Saint Not a Minshew man eh V? No I actually really like him. I just think ones that have been in the system have the advantage and come cheap. None but maybe a draft pick are a long term solution
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,766

03-22-2022, 06:45 PM	#640
shawnkytonk 500th Post Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Denver>Memphis>Mississippi Posts: 741	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 5th rounder for Minshew? I'd definitely pay a 5th for the mustache. He just has that moxie you want in a QB. saintsfan1976, jeanpierre and K Major like this.