Head Coach Material

Boston Saint · 11-09-2022, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by vpheughan

I understand your point but comparing what Dennis Allen has done to Sean Payton's last year is not apples to apples.

Sean Payton was 9-8 and not with a "better oline".
That "better oline" had the starting five playing a total of 22 snaps together last season. The team set the NFL record for fielding the most starters in a single season and lost their starting quarterback in Week 8 to an injury.

No Wil Lutz might’ve been the biggest blow of all. The trio of Johnson, Aldrick Rosas, and Cody Parkey missed a combined three field goals and five extra points. The Saints lost back-to-back games to the Falcons and Titans, both narrow two-point victories.

They’re not the first team to traverse the pitfalls of replacing a longtime franchise quarterback but they may be the first to start four quarterbacks (after losing their starter in Week 8) behind an injury-riddled offensive line missing both starting tackles and left guard.

For perspective, the Denver Broncos went 6-10 following Elway’s retirement in 1999 and didn’t win another playoff game until 2005. Steve Young retired unexpectedly following a concussion in 1999; the 49ers went 6-10 in 2000 and struggled for years until Jim Harbaugh arrived. Troy Aikman had a great supporting cast and retired on top in 2000. Dallas went 5-11 the next year and floundered until Tony Romo. After going 6-10 following Jim Kelly’s retirement in 1996, the Buffalo Bills had a 17-year postseason drought until Josh Allen showed up in 2018.

These comparisons can never be apples to apples because of roster changes. Sure There were a lot of injuries last year, but having Armstead at all last year and not having Penning at all this year the overall talent dropped. At worst guys like Throckmorton are playing just like last year, so it’s a wash.

Likewise Lutz has missed more kicks than usual this year, so his “return” has been a wash. Blake’s punting hasn’t been as good as last year either, so overall Allen has had less to work with overall at special teams too.

Your point/examples about franchise QBs not being easily replaced is interesting, but not surprising (Although in your example young replaced a franchise guy in Montana). But I can give examples that do go that way…Favre to Rogers; Manning to Luck; Bledsoe to Brady. Either way, when a franchise suffers after a long period of winning like in the examples you mention it doesn’t mean it’s because of the coach. More likely it’s a mix of roster moves based on financial decisions and years of having draft picks in the later half of the draft that lead to a talent deficient team. Especially when the injury bug hits a team.

Which brings me back to my point. I believe it would be more accurate to asses Allen’s ability as head coach had he been able to field a team with Landry, Thomas, Penning, Lattimore etc. to see what he could do. I realize this is not possible. But the performance against the Raiders two weeks ago was better than anything I remember (off the top of my head) seeing Payton put out his last season coaching the Saints. That leads me to think Allen is at least capable of fielding a good team.

To me it’s like saying your driver sucks for not winning the Indy 500 when his car isn’t allowed to have pit stops.

11-09-2022, 10:45 PM	#10
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Head Coach Material Originally Posted by vpheughan I understand your point but comparing what Dennis Allen has done to Sean Payton's last year is not apples to apples. Sean Payton was 9-8 and not with a "better oline". That "better oline" had the starting five playing a total of 22 snaps together last season. The team set the NFL record for fielding the most starters in a single season and lost their starting quarterback in Week 8 to an injury. No Wil Lutz might’ve been the biggest blow of all. The trio of Johnson, Aldrick Rosas, and Cody Parkey missed a combined three field goals and five extra points. The Saints lost back-to-back games to the Falcons and Titans, both narrow two-point victories. They’re not the first team to traverse the pitfalls of replacing a longtime franchise quarterback but they may be the first to start four quarterbacks (after losing their starter in Week 8) behind an injury-riddled offensive line missing both starting tackles and left guard. For perspective, the Denver Broncos went 6-10 following Elway’s retirement in 1999 and didn’t win another playoff game until 2005. Steve Young retired unexpectedly following a concussion in 1999; the 49ers went 6-10 in 2000 and struggled for years until Jim Harbaugh arrived. Troy Aikman had a great supporting cast and retired on top in 2000. Dallas went 5-11 the next year and floundered until Tony Romo. After going 6-10 following Jim Kelly’s retirement in 1996, the Buffalo Bills had a 17-year postseason drought until Josh Allen showed up in 2018. These comparisons can never be apples to apples because of roster changes. Sure There were a lot of injuries last year, but having Armstead at all last year and not having Penning at all this year the overall talent dropped. At worst guys like Throckmorton are playing just like last year, so it’s a wash. Likewise Lutz has missed more kicks than usual this year, so his “return” has been a wash. Blake’s punting hasn’t been as good as last year either, so overall Allen has had less to work with overall at special teams too. Your point/examples about franchise QBs not being easily replaced is interesting, but not surprising (Although in your example young replaced a franchise guy in Montana). But I can give examples that do go that way…Favre to Rogers; Manning to Luck; Bledsoe to Brady. Either way, when a franchise suffers after a long period of winning like in the examples you mention it doesn’t mean it’s because of the coach. More likely it’s a mix of roster moves based on financial decisions and years of having draft picks in the later half of the draft that lead to a talent deficient team. Especially when the injury bug hits a team. Which brings me back to my point. I believe it would be more accurate to asses Allen’s ability as head coach had he been able to field a team with Landry, Thomas, Penning, Lattimore etc. to see what he could do. I realize this is not possible. But the performance against the Raiders two weeks ago was better than anything I remember (off the top of my head) seeing Payton put out his last season coaching the Saints. That leads me to think Allen is at least capable of fielding a good team. To me it’s like saying your driver sucks for not winning the Indy 500 when his car isn’t allowed to have pit stops.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora