Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better

AsylumGuido · 11-08-2023, 05:45 PM

Those in doubt should take a close look at Morten Andersen's first couple of years.

Rugby Saint II · 11-09-2023, 12:07 PM

After reading five pages of valid pros and cons I have a tendency to give the young man time to settle in. Lutz and Morten Andersen "The Great Dane" weren't always money. I remember the revolving door at kicker in the past and I don't want to go there again. Grupe has a good leg and was damn good in preseason. Give him time to calm down. After all, he is only a rookie and he's already made several long kicks. Yes, he's missed at the worst time but he's young. Let's give him a chance to see if he's the kicker of the future before we start fresh next year.

AsylumGuido · 11-10-2023, 09:56 AM

Sounds like Rizzi sees the snap and/or hold being the issue. That's implied by the reference to the "operation".

MatthewT likes this.

AsylumGuido · 11-15-2023, 09:25 AM

Just an update here. I'm not sure who all watched the Broncos/Bills game this past week, but our friend Lutz missed another extra point and then missed the short FG to win the game, but was given a second chance due to the Bills having 12 men on the field. He made the second attempt five yards closer with the added comfort of the practice kick.

MatthewT · 11-15-2023, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Sounds like Rizzi sees the snap and/or hold being the issue. That's implied by the reference to the "operation".

https://twitter.com/nick_underhill/s...51990990606649

Sounds like Taysom Hill needs to be the new holder.

AsylumGuido · 11-15-2023, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

Sounds like Taysom Hill needs to be the new holder.

I was actually thinking the same thing.

BakoSaint · 11-15-2023, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Sounds like Rizzi sees the snap and/or hold being the issue. That's implied by the reference to the "operation".

https://twitter.com/nick_underhill/s...51990990606649

This makes sense. We have a rag-tag oline and crocodile dundee out there holding as a 30 year old rookie. With Grupe, I see upside, he nails a lot of long kicks and he is young. With the punter, the upside must be selling Saints gear to global markets and trying to talk Keith Urban and Nicole Kidman into showing up for a Saints game just because Pete Carmichael's offense is featuring their countryman learning to punt.

hitta · 11-16-2023, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Just an update here. I'm not sure who all watched the Broncos/Bills game this past week, but our friend Lutz missed another extra point and then missed the short FG to win the game, but was given a second chance due to the Bills having 12 men on the field. He made the second attempt five yards closer with the added comfort of the practice kick.

On the missed game-winner before the do-over: I absolutely hated how they managed the clock there and IMO added more pressure to the kick than there should have been. They should have been throwing an incomplete pass/spike on 3rd down to stop the clock. Payton wanted to bring the clock all the way down and not give them the ball back and it almost cost them the game. Doing that makes the odds of the kicker missing the kick much higher as the entire squad is rushing to get the snap and the kick off. I really didn't like how they did that. They should have had a dead ball, had a pressure-free kick, and given the ball back to the Bills with less than 20 seconds and no time-outs. Your odds of making the kick and winning the game are higher in that scenario than the one that played out. What they did only lowered their chances of winning and almost cost them the game IMO.

BakoSaint · 11-16-2023, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by hitta

On the missed game-winner before the do-over: I absolutely hated how they managed the clock there and IMO added more pressure to the kick than there should have been. They should have been throwing an incomplete pass/spike on 3rd down to stop the clock. Payton wanted to bring the clock all the way down and not give them the ball back and it almost cost them the game. Doing that makes the odds of the kicker missing the kick much higher as the entire squad is rushing to get the snap and the kick off. I really didn't like how they did that. They should have had a dead ball, had a pressure-free kick, and given the ball back to the Bills with less than 20 seconds and no time-outs. Your odds of making the kick and winning the game are higher in that scenario than the one that played out. What they did only lowered their chances of winning and almost cost them the game IMO.

You are missing one thing. Rushing the kicking team also rushed the defense. In the end, rushing the defense gave Lutz 2 chances to make the kick and improved their chances of winning the game. Had Lutz made the initial attempt, I believe Denver could have declined the 12 man penalty and won. Since Denver missed the kick, Denver accepted the 12 man. Rushing the defense worked. It could be a partial excuse for Lutz’s miss, but I am ok with the coaching decision from Payton. It may increase the chance Lutz misses but that is probably outweighed by taking time off the clock and increasing the chances of a Bill penalty. I guess it could have increased the chance of. Denver penalty too which the Bills could accept or decline depending on whether Denver makes the kick, but if Buffalo accepts a Denver penalty Lutz would get an unrushed but farther kick and the time would still come off the clock.

hitta · 11-16-2023, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

You are missing one thing. Rushing the kicking team also rushed the defense. In the end, rushing the defense gave Lutz 2 chances to make the kick and improved their chances of winning the game. Had Lutz made the initial attempt, I believe Denver could have declined the 12 man penalty and won. Since Denver missed the kick, Denver accepted the 12 man. Rushing the defense worked. It could be a partial excuse for Lutz’s miss, but I am ok with the coaching decision from Payton. It may increase the chance Lutz misses but that is probably outweighed by taking time off the clock and increasing the chances of a Bill penalty. I guess it could have increased the chance of. Denver penalty too which the Bills could accept or decline depending on whether Denver makes the kick, but if Buffalo accepts a Denver penalty Lutz would get an unrushed but farther kick and the time would still come off the clock.

You basically argued against yourself. In addition, it's far more likely to have an offensive penalty in that situation than a defensive one. I think if they had an offensive penalty, the game would be over. There would be a 10-second runoff and the game also ends with an offensive penalty at 00 time, which makes doing that kick even more risky. There would be no redo like you stated.

11-08-2023, 05:45 PM	#41
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Twitter Those in doubt should take a close look at Morten Andersen's first couple of years.

11-09-2023, 12:07 PM	#42
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 23,762	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better After reading five pages of valid pros and cons I have a tendency to give the young man time to settle in. Lutz and Morten Andersen "The Great Dane" weren't always money. I remember the revolving door at kicker in the past and I don't want to go there again. Grupe has a good leg and was damn good in preseason. Give him time to calm down. After all, he is only a rookie and he's already made several long kicks. Yes, he's missed at the worst time but he's young. Let's give him a chance to see if he's the kicker of the future before we start fresh next year. jnormand and SmashMouth like this.
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11-10-2023, 09:56 AM	#43
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Sounds like Rizzi sees the snap and/or hold being the issue. That's implied by the reference to the "operation". Twitter MatthewT likes this.

11-15-2023, 09:25 AM	#44
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Just an update here. I'm not sure who all watched the Broncos/Bills game this past week, but our friend Lutz missed another extra point and then missed the short FG to win the game, but was given a second chance due to the Bills having 12 men on the field. He made the second attempt five yards closer with the added comfort of the practice kick. MatthewT and SmashMouth like this.

11-15-2023, 03:26 PM	#45
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,706	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Sounds like Rizzi sees the snap and/or hold being the issue. That's implied by the reference to the "operation". https://twitter.com/nick_underhill/s...51990990606649 Sounds like Taysom Hill needs to be the new holder. AsylumGuido and SmashMouth like this.

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11-15-2023, 03:44 PM	#46
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Originally Posted by MatthewT Sounds like Taysom Hill needs to be the new holder. I was actually thinking the same thing. MatthewT likes this.

11-15-2023, 07:38 PM	#47
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,765	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Sounds like Rizzi sees the snap and/or hold being the issue. That's implied by the reference to the "operation". https://twitter.com/nick_underhill/s...51990990606649 This makes sense. We have a rag-tag oline and crocodile dundee out there holding as a 30 year old rookie. With Grupe, I see upside, he nails a lot of long kicks and he is young. With the punter, the upside must be selling Saints gear to global markets and trying to talk Keith Urban and Nicole Kidman into showing up for a Saints game just because Pete Carmichael's offense is featuring their countryman learning to punt. SmashMouth and K Major like this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,765

11-16-2023, 11:50 AM	#48
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,301	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Just an update here. I'm not sure who all watched the Broncos/Bills game this past week, but our friend Lutz missed another extra point and then missed the short FG to win the game, but was given a second chance due to the Bills having 12 men on the field. He made the second attempt five yards closer with the added comfort of the practice kick. On the missed game-winner before the do-over: I absolutely hated how they managed the clock there and IMO added more pressure to the kick than there should have been. They should have been throwing an incomplete pass/spike on 3rd down to stop the clock. Payton wanted to bring the clock all the way down and not give them the ball back and it almost cost them the game. Doing that makes the odds of the kicker missing the kick much higher as the entire squad is rushing to get the snap and the kick off. I really didn't like how they did that. They should have had a dead ball, had a pressure-free kick, and given the ball back to the Bills with less than 20 seconds and no time-outs. Your odds of making the kick and winning the game are higher in that scenario than the one that played out. What they did only lowered their chances of winning and almost cost them the game IMO.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,301

11-16-2023, 01:40 PM	#49
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,765	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Originally Posted by hitta On the missed game-winner before the do-over: I absolutely hated how they managed the clock there and IMO added more pressure to the kick than there should have been. They should have been throwing an incomplete pass/spike on 3rd down to stop the clock. Payton wanted to bring the clock all the way down and not give them the ball back and it almost cost them the game. Doing that makes the odds of the kicker missing the kick much higher as the entire squad is rushing to get the snap and the kick off. I really didn't like how they did that. They should have had a dead ball, had a pressure-free kick, and given the ball back to the Bills with less than 20 seconds and no time-outs. Your odds of making the kick and winning the game are higher in that scenario than the one that played out. What they did only lowered their chances of winning and almost cost them the game IMO. You are missing one thing. Rushing the kicking team also rushed the defense. In the end, rushing the defense gave Lutz 2 chances to make the kick and improved their chances of winning the game. Had Lutz made the initial attempt, I believe Denver could have declined the 12 man penalty and won. Since Denver missed the kick, Denver accepted the 12 man. Rushing the defense worked. It could be a partial excuse for Lutz’s miss, but I am ok with the coaching decision from Payton. It may increase the chance Lutz misses but that is probably outweighed by taking time off the clock and increasing the chances of a Bill penalty. I guess it could have increased the chance of. Denver penalty too which the Bills could accept or decline depending on whether Denver makes the kick, but if Buffalo accepts a Denver penalty Lutz would get an unrushed but farther kick and the time would still come off the clock.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,765

11-16-2023, 08:14 PM	#50
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,301	Re: Lutz vs Grupe Stats - Lutz is not playing better Originally Posted by BakoSaint You are missing one thing. Rushing the kicking team also rushed the defense. In the end, rushing the defense gave Lutz 2 chances to make the kick and improved their chances of winning the game. Had Lutz made the initial attempt, I believe Denver could have declined the 12 man penalty and won. Since Denver missed the kick, Denver accepted the 12 man. Rushing the defense worked. It could be a partial excuse for Lutz’s miss, but I am ok with the coaching decision from Payton. It may increase the chance Lutz misses but that is probably outweighed by taking time off the clock and increasing the chances of a Bill penalty. I guess it could have increased the chance of. Denver penalty too which the Bills could accept or decline depending on whether Denver makes the kick, but if Buffalo accepts a Denver penalty Lutz would get an unrushed but farther kick and the time would still come off the clock. You basically argued against yourself. In addition, it's far more likely to have an offensive penalty in that situation than a defensive one. I think if they had an offensive penalty, the game would be over. There would be a 10-second runoff and the game also ends with an offensive penalty at 00 time, which makes doing that kick even more risky. There would be no redo like you stated.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,301