Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

SaintFanInATLHELL · 06-04-2024, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

Or....if we're lucky we start slow and the Saints fire DA midseason. KK steps in and becomes the next future HOF coach.

Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season?

I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst?

SFIAH

Sinner · 06-04-2024, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season?

I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst?

SFIAH

He’s weak. He’s not a leader. He’s got less charisma than Ditka had in his winky.

AsylumGuido · 06-04-2024, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season?

I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst?

SFIAH

As a noted philosopher once expounded, "Haters gonna hate."

Sinner · 06-04-2024, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

As a noted philosopher once expounded, "Haters gonna hate."

Losers gonna lose. Some of us hate losing.

BakoSaint · 06-04-2024, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Without really checking, Klint's previous stop in Santa Clara? He wasn't OC there, of course. And why he was considered and hired here. We'll see how things go in the beginning.

So are you saying that Kubiak's 1 year tenure with the 49ers as an offensive assistant where they had a very similar overall season the season before he joined is a precedent for an offensive coordinator turning around an entire team previously believed to have a mediocre head coach, qb, and record and proving that a good offensive coordinator alone can be the difference between mediocrity and a championship?

In 2021 Kubiak was OC of the Vikings and they went from 7-9 with 430 points in 2020 to 8-9 with 425 points in 2021.

In 2022 Kubiak was an offensive assistant and sometimes play caller for the Broncos. The Broncos were 3-6 when Kubiak was handed play calling duties. They finished 5-12 compared to 7-10 the prior year.

In 2023 in San Francisco Kubiak was an offensive assistant. The 49ers went from 13-4 NFC Championship Runners Up in 2022 when their QB was hurt in the NFC Championship Game to 12-5 NFC Champions in 2023 when their QB wasn't hurt in the NFC Championship game, so not a dramatic improvement.

So, although Kubiak is supposed to be a miracle worker who will add many wins for us, in his last three stops he has added 1, -2, and -1 regular season wins.

I am not saying Kubiak can't be good. I am saying the jury is still out and even if he is a great OC, a great OC has never been able to do it alone.

BakoSaint · 06-04-2024, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

All very unlikely. Allen's retiring at some point in the future is the best probability with someone within the staff taking over ... after the Rooney Rule requirements are met, of course.

Barring some tragedy befalling Dennis Allen, I don't see any scenario where Kubiak replaces Allen during the season as was suggested earlier. That is what I was addressing. I doubt any of us would want anything bad to happen to DA or someone close to him. Er, maybe that sinner guy. haters gonna hate.

Dennis Allen's defenses with the Raiders ranked 28, 29, and 32 in the league. I don't see it as very unlikely that Dennis Allen could post a bad defense if things go wrong, he has done so the majority of his seasons as a head coach. With the Saints, he benefitted from a culture led by Sean Payton and managed to assemble a strong veteran defensive core. As that core ages out and the culture of Sean Payton fades, nobody knows if the Saints defense will remain strong or not. Certainly throughout the league there is a long history of many respected defensive coordinators and defensive minded head coaches whose defenses have been very strong some years but also have had off years as well.

BakoSaint · 06-04-2024, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season?

I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst?

SFIAH

I guess I am thinking people change when 20-30 years pass or they are different people altogether. With Ditka, decisions would have been made by Tom Benson who is dead now and others who are gone now. It was complicated by Ditka being a hall of fame legend coach and player with a previous super bowl win, whose firing in season might have been seen across the league as highly disrespectful and prevented the Saints from hiring other top candidates.

With Haslett it would have been Tom Benson and Mickey Loomis deciding, not sure what Lauscha's role was in 2005-2006 so maybe him also, and also Katrina was a factor that might have made an in-season firing much different. Firing your coach in season after your team relocated in season to multiple other cities due to an unprecedented natural disaster could have been seen as cruel.

Now the decisions would be made by Gayle, a 20 years older Loomis, and Lauscha, without the complication of a hurricane relocated season or a hall of fame coach. It would be firing a perceived mediocre to poor head coach during his third season with the team who had never been to the playoffs and was also fired during his 3rd season with his previous team. I don't see why the Saints would be way less likely to make a change in season than the average NFL team, given that the previous precedents are so far in the past with such different circumstances. DA ain't a legend like Ditka, and he can't blame a storm like Katrina, he is just a random ok DC who was lucky to get a 2nd chance as head coach and has done nothing great so far.

Sinner · 06-04-2024, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

I guess I am thinking people change when 20-30 years pass or they are different people altogether. With Ditka, decisions would have been made by Tom Benson who is dead now and others who are gone now. It was complicated by Ditka being a hall of fame legend coach and player with a previous super bowl win, whose firing in season might have been seen across the league as highly disrespectful and prevented the Saints from hiring other top candidates.

With Haslett it would have been Tom Benson and Mickey Loomis deciding, not sure what Lauscha's role was in 2005-2006 so maybe him also, and also Katrina was a factor that might have made an in-season firing much different. Firing your coach in season after your team relocated in season to multiple other cities due to an unprecedented natural disaster could have been seen as cruel.

Now the decisions would be made by Gayle, a 20 years older Loomis, and Lauscha, without the complication of a hurricane relocated season or a hall of fame coach. It would be firing a perceived mediocre to poor head coach during his third season with the team who had never been to the playoffs and was also fired during his 3rd season with his previous team. I don't see why the Saints would be way less likely to make a change in season than the average NFL team, given that the previous precedents are so far in the past with such different circumstances. DA ain't a legend like Ditka, and he can't blame a storm like Katrina, he is just a random ok DC who was lucky to get a 2nd chance as head coach and has done nothing great so far.

Salient Points ^^^

AsylumGuido · 06-04-2024, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Dennis Allen's defenses with the Raiders ranked 28, 29, and 32 in the league. I don't see it as very unlikely that Dennis Allen could post a bad defense if things go wrong, he has done so the majority of his seasons as a head coach. With the Saints, he benefitted from a culture led by Sean Payton and managed to assemble a strong veteran defensive core. As that core ages out and the culture of Sean Payton fades, nobody knows if the Saints defense will remain strong or not. Certainly throughout the league there is a long history of many respected defensive coordinators and defensive minded head coaches whose defenses have been very strong some years but also have had off years as well.

Allen had bad defenses with the Raiders because his talent pool sucked. He had no say on the roster with Al Davis having just died the previous season and Mark Davis making all the calls.

BakoSaint · 06-04-2024, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Allen had bad defenses with the Raiders because his talent pool sucked. He had no say on the roster with Al Davis having just died the previous season and Mark Davis making all the calls.

So, if Davis, Jordan, Mathieu, and Lattimore all decline due to aging, the defensive talent pool here could take a nose dive if younger players don't develop to replace them.

Do you have any documentation that Allen had 'no say' on the Raiders roster rather than the typical amount of input most non-GM head coaches have? Al Davis was clearly a strong headed GM but I don't know that his son was known as such. Reggie McKenzie was the GM and picked DA to work together.

Also, did DA really control the roster that made the Saints defense good recently? It seems like our core was acquired under Payton and Loomis. It seems like DA probably had more control of the 2012-2014 Raiders rosters than he had of the Saints defensive core that was built from 2017-2021 before he took over, and its unclear long term if his influence will build a winner or not. Recent defensive draft picks and free agents have been a mixed bag, the core predating DA's head coaching tenure has been the strength. If we keep drafting players like Turner and Foskey, we might be wanting to phone Mark Davis for better advice.

06-04-2024, 02:14 PM	#21
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,650	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II Or....if we're lucky we start slow and the Saints fire DA midseason. KK steps in and becomes the next future HOF coach. Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season? I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst? SFIAH

06-04-2024, 02:32 PM	#22
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,904	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season? I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst? SFIAH He’s weak. He’s not a leader. He’s got less charisma than Ditka had in his winky.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,904

06-04-2024, 03:17 PM	#23
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,743	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season? I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst? SFIAH As a noted philosopher once expounded, "Haters gonna hate."

06-04-2024, 03:33 PM	#24
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,904	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by AsylumGuido As a noted philosopher once expounded, "Haters gonna hate." Losers gonna lose. Some of us hate losing.
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06-04-2024, 04:05 PM	#25
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,805	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by SmashMouth Without really checking, Klint's previous stop in Santa Clara? He wasn't OC there, of course. And why he was considered and hired here. We'll see how things go in the beginning. So are you saying that Kubiak's 1 year tenure with the 49ers as an offensive assistant where they had a very similar overall season the season before he joined is a precedent for an offensive coordinator turning around an entire team previously believed to have a mediocre head coach, qb, and record and proving that a good offensive coordinator alone can be the difference between mediocrity and a championship? In 2021 Kubiak was OC of the Vikings and they went from 7-9 with 430 points in 2020 to 8-9 with 425 points in 2021. In 2022 Kubiak was an offensive assistant and sometimes play caller for the Broncos. The Broncos were 3-6 when Kubiak was handed play calling duties. They finished 5-12 compared to 7-10 the prior year. In 2023 in San Francisco Kubiak was an offensive assistant. The 49ers went from 13-4 NFC Championship Runners Up in 2022 when their QB was hurt in the NFC Championship Game to 12-5 NFC Champions in 2023 when their QB wasn't hurt in the NFC Championship game, so not a dramatic improvement. So, although Kubiak is supposed to be a miracle worker who will add many wins for us, in his last three stops he has added 1, -2, and -1 regular season wins. I am not saying Kubiak can't be good. I am saying the jury is still out and even if he is a great OC, a great OC has never been able to do it alone.
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06-04-2024, 04:16 PM	#26
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,805	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by AsylumGuido All very unlikely. Allen's retiring at some point in the future is the best probability with someone within the staff taking over ... after the Rooney Rule requirements are met, of course. Barring some tragedy befalling Dennis Allen, I don't see any scenario where Kubiak replaces Allen during the season as was suggested earlier. That is what I was addressing. I doubt any of us would want anything bad to happen to DA or someone close to him. Er, maybe that sinner guy. haters gonna hate. Dennis Allen's defenses with the Raiders ranked 28, 29, and 32 in the league. I don't see it as very unlikely that Dennis Allen could post a bad defense if things go wrong, he has done so the majority of his seasons as a head coach. With the Saints, he benefitted from a culture led by Sean Payton and managed to assemble a strong veteran defensive core. As that core ages out and the culture of Sean Payton fades, nobody knows if the Saints defense will remain strong or not. Certainly throughout the league there is a long history of many respected defensive coordinators and defensive minded head coaches whose defenses have been very strong some years but also have had off years as well. Sinner likes this.
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06-04-2024, 04:26 PM	#27
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,805	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Both Mike Ditka and Jim Haslett were let go after 3-13 seasons. Loomis was around for both of these I believe. Why would you think that all of a sudden that the brass would fire Allen mid-season? I really wonder exactly what Allen has done to hurt so many people and garner this level of hate when the absolute worst that can be said about his tenure at 17-17 with the Saints is that he's mediocre at worst? SFIAH I guess I am thinking people change when 20-30 years pass or they are different people altogether. With Ditka, decisions would have been made by Tom Benson who is dead now and others who are gone now. It was complicated by Ditka being a hall of fame legend coach and player with a previous super bowl win, whose firing in season might have been seen across the league as highly disrespectful and prevented the Saints from hiring other top candidates. With Haslett it would have been Tom Benson and Mickey Loomis deciding, not sure what Lauscha's role was in 2005-2006 so maybe him also, and also Katrina was a factor that might have made an in-season firing much different. Firing your coach in season after your team relocated in season to multiple other cities due to an unprecedented natural disaster could have been seen as cruel. Now the decisions would be made by Gayle, a 20 years older Loomis, and Lauscha, without the complication of a hurricane relocated season or a hall of fame coach. It would be firing a perceived mediocre to poor head coach during his third season with the team who had never been to the playoffs and was also fired during his 3rd season with his previous team. I don't see why the Saints would be way less likely to make a change in season than the average NFL team, given that the previous precedents are so far in the past with such different circumstances. DA ain't a legend like Ditka, and he can't blame a storm like Katrina, he is just a random ok DC who was lucky to get a 2nd chance as head coach and has done nothing great so far. Sinner likes this.
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06-04-2024, 04:51 PM	#28
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,904	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by BakoSaint I guess I am thinking people change when 20-30 years pass or they are different people altogether. With Ditka, decisions would have been made by Tom Benson who is dead now and others who are gone now. It was complicated by Ditka being a hall of fame legend coach and player with a previous super bowl win, whose firing in season might have been seen across the league as highly disrespectful and prevented the Saints from hiring other top candidates. With Haslett it would have been Tom Benson and Mickey Loomis deciding, not sure what Lauscha's role was in 2005-2006 so maybe him also, and also Katrina was a factor that might have made an in-season firing much different. Firing your coach in season after your team relocated in season to multiple other cities due to an unprecedented natural disaster could have been seen as cruel. Now the decisions would be made by Gayle, a 20 years older Loomis, and Lauscha, without the complication of a hurricane relocated season or a hall of fame coach. It would be firing a perceived mediocre to poor head coach during his third season with the team who had never been to the playoffs and was also fired during his 3rd season with his previous team. I don't see why the Saints would be way less likely to make a change in season than the average NFL team, given that the previous precedents are so far in the past with such different circumstances. DA ain't a legend like Ditka, and he can't blame a storm like Katrina, he is just a random ok DC who was lucky to get a 2nd chance as head coach and has done nothing great so far. Salient Points ^^^
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06-04-2024, 05:00 PM	#29
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,743	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by BakoSaint Dennis Allen's defenses with the Raiders ranked 28, 29, and 32 in the league. I don't see it as very unlikely that Dennis Allen could post a bad defense if things go wrong, he has done so the majority of his seasons as a head coach. With the Saints, he benefitted from a culture led by Sean Payton and managed to assemble a strong veteran defensive core. As that core ages out and the culture of Sean Payton fades, nobody knows if the Saints defense will remain strong or not. Certainly throughout the league there is a long history of many respected defensive coordinators and defensive minded head coaches whose defenses have been very strong some years but also have had off years as well. Allen had bad defenses with the Raiders because his talent pool sucked. He had no say on the roster with Al Davis having just died the previous season and Mark Davis making all the calls.

06-04-2024, 05:39 PM	#30
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,805	Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Allen had bad defenses with the Raiders because his talent pool sucked. He had no say on the roster with Al Davis having just died the previous season and Mark Davis making all the calls. So, if Davis, Jordan, Mathieu, and Lattimore all decline due to aging, the defensive talent pool here could take a nose dive if younger players don't develop to replace them. Do you have any documentation that Allen had 'no say' on the Raiders roster rather than the typical amount of input most non-GM head coaches have? Al Davis was clearly a strong headed GM but I don't know that his son was known as such. Reggie McKenzie was the GM and picked DA to work together. Also, did DA really control the roster that made the Saints defense good recently? It seems like our core was acquired under Payton and Loomis. It seems like DA probably had more control of the 2012-2014 Raiders rosters than he had of the Saints defensive core that was built from 2017-2021 before he took over, and its unclear long term if his influence will build a winner or not. Recent defensive draft picks and free agents have been a mixed bag, the core predating DA's head coaching tenure has been the strength. If we keep drafting players like Turner and Foskey, we might be wanting to phone Mark Davis for better advice.
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