Defensive Front Four.

nocloning · 07-07-2003, 03:47 PM

My line of thinking: Sullivan was worth the 6th pick. He will be one of the top rookies. HOWEVER he will not immediately become one of the top linemen in the NFL. There will be some growing pains, it\'s inevitable. When I say \"too high\" I mean that the coaches want him to become the dominant force he may be in 2-3 years from now this year.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-07-2003, 03:53 PM

My line of thinking: Sullivan was worth the 6th pick. He will be one of the top rookies. HOWEVER he will not immediately become one of the top linemen in the NFL. There will be some growing pains, it\'s inevitable. When I say \"too high\" I mean that the coaches want him to become the dominant force he may be in 2-3 years from now this year.

Unless you know something I don\'t-- I don\'t think the coaches expect him to be one of the best. At least I haven\'t heard them say that.

I think they want to get the player they expected though. Which is one of the best rookie lineman this year.

I think your speculating on what the coaches expect from him??

SFinAustin · 07-07-2003, 04:05 PM

I would think that after trading two 1st rounders and passing on more polished players like Trufant, Williams, and Kennedy, the expectations are going to be high not only this season but seasons beyond. Remember, with top 10 draft status and salary come top 10 expectations. I too expect him to dominate in a few years and it has nothing to do with what is being said about him. All you have to do is check the video tape. The man was a beast in the SEC last year. That\'s all I need to know.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-07-2003, 05:50 PM

I try not to be too over enthusiatic about Sullivan, because most memebers on here will say he is unproven and mistakes are inevitable.

But, I think D-lineman ,more so than any other position ,have a chance to make a big impact in their rookie year. If anyone has a hard time getting pumped about a defensive lineman that was picked #6 overall, then I don\'t know what it\'s going to take.

I\'m not saying he is going to be Warren Sapp in his first year, but I expect him to have a major impact, this year.

Having that one disruptive player in the middle causes so much choas that it opens up so many things for the rest of the D-lineman. The QB cannot step up in the pocket and the outside guys (Howard and Grant) will be meeting at the QB, like Swilling and Jackson use to. A lot of the credit went to Jackson and Swilling,deservedly so, but the guys in the middle (Wayne Maritn and Frank Warren) played a big part in that.

If no one followed Kenny Smith\'s college career, you might want to read up on this guy. He\'s a talent. I know he\'s unproven in the NFL, but I think he is going to have a major impact for the Saints this year.

It might be safe to say their unproven and let\'s wait and see, but my money is on us having a very, very, good defense.

And for all you doubters:

The Saints offense had a running back starting his first year. A WR (donte) starting his first year. A QB starting his second full year. A tightend (sloan) with his first year as a Saint. A rookie guard ( Bentley) and they didn\'t do to bad. Did they?

[Edited on 7/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-07-2003, 06:53 PM

2001/2002 defensive turn arounds....

Carolina-- 31st / 2nd

Atlanta--30th / 19th

Indy--29th / 8th

Tenn--25th / 10th

[b:a686a6477c] The defenses moved up an average of 19 spots. Which would make us the number 6 defense in the league compared to last year. Yeah I know.......but I would have to say since four teams did it, this would be the norm and not the exception to the rule.

[Edited on 8/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

WhoDat · 07-07-2003, 08:21 PM

Four teams out of 32 makes for the norm? Or even better, 4 out of 16 below average? If those four teams moved up, what about the teams that moved down? Bottom line is that for every winner there is a loser so your line of reasoning is faulty. It is not the norm.

I understand what you\'re saying though. If they can do it so can we... but the fact of the matter is that BECAUSE they did it DOES NOT mean that we will. It means it is possible, not probable. You follow?

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-07-2003, 08:33 PM

OK, work with me here.

There are 31 teams, which means only roughly 15 teams can move up in defense. I only listed the ones that moved up dramatically, but we\'ll go with that. Which means there\'s a 26.6% chance that we can do the same.

I know it really means nothing. I shouldn\'t have said it is the norm, but it\'s not uncommon for it to happen. Will we? I think there\'s a good chance, of course it\'s not a science.

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 05:24 PM

Out of the 4 teams you listed, the Falcons got Wade Phillips at D-coordinator, the Panthers got John Fox and drafted the #1 defensive player, the Colts got Dungy and installed the cover 2 and drafted almost an entire defensive draft including the NCAA sack leader. As for Tennessee, they overcame alot of the injury bug, drafted impact defensive players, and got banner seasons from some vets.

We have kept Venturi. I\'d be surprised to see a top 10 finish, although I\'d be content just to not have to play shootout every game.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 05:43 PM

Out of the 4 teams you listed, the Falcons got Wade Phillips at D-coordinator, the Panthers got John Fox and drafted the #1 defensive player, the Colts got Dungy and installed the cover 2 and drafted almost an entire defensive draft including the NCAA sack leader. As for Tennessee, they overcame alot of the injury bug, drafted impact defensive players, and got banner seasons from some vets.

We have kept Venturi. I\'d be surprised to see a top 10 finish, although I\'d be content just to not have to play shootout every game.

I\'m sure coaching played a part in the rise of some of the defenses, I don\'t think it had as much of an impact as your post suggest. If you have enough talented players, you can play any defense you want and be sucessful.

Players have often made a coach look like a genius one year and a chump the next.

The Saints drafted what should be an impact player in Sullivan and Kenny Smtih is talented. Add those two in with Grant and Howard and that should be reason for optimism in any Saints fan.

I have always beleived that it all starts upfront with a defense. Stop the run and you make a team one dimentional.

While no one knows how it will work out, I think we have as much chance as any of the 4 teams that did it last year.

[Edited on 8/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 06:37 PM

I agree that the front 4 is the glue of any great defense, not just in stopping the run but pressuring a QB and forcing the pass. Next to all of the great defenses have had exceptional D lines. I also agree that ours has some great potential to be disruptive to a QB. The only aspect that concerns me about the foursome is play recognition. Last year Howard and Grant would get great jumps and watch the play go right past them in their bee line for the QB. Sullivan and Smith will be pretty green up front. I\'m sure once they know it\'s run or a pass it will be jailbreak to the ball. It\'s when tehy figure out the play call that scares me.

07-07-2003, 03:47 PM	#21
nocloning 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 302	Defensive Front Four. My line of thinking: Sullivan was worth the 6th pick. He will be one of the top rookies. HOWEVER he will not immediately become one of the top linemen in the NFL. There will be some growing pains, it\'s inevitable. When I say \"too high\" I mean that the coaches want him to become the dominant force he may be in 2-3 years from now this year.
nocloning 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 302

07-07-2003, 03:53 PM	#22
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. My line of thinking: Sullivan was worth the 6th pick. He will be one of the top rookies. HOWEVER he will not immediately become one of the top linemen in the NFL. There will be some growing pains, it\'s inevitable. When I say \"too high\" I mean that the coaches want him to become the dominant force he may be in 2-3 years from now this year. Unless you know something I don\'t-- I don\'t think the coaches expect him to be one of the best. At least I haven\'t heard them say that. I think they want to get the player they expected though. Which is one of the best rookie lineman this year. I think your speculating on what the coaches expect from him??
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-07-2003, 04:05 PM	#23
SFinAustin 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176	Defensive Front Four. I would think that after trading two 1st rounders and passing on more polished players like Trufant, Williams, and Kennedy, the expectations are going to be high not only this season but seasons beyond. Remember, with top 10 draft status and salary come top 10 expectations. I too expect him to dominate in a few years and it has nothing to do with what is being said about him. All you have to do is check the video tape. The man was a beast in the SEC last year. That\'s all I need to know.
SFinAustin 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176

07-07-2003, 05:50 PM	#24
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. I try not to be too over enthusiatic about Sullivan, because most memebers on here will say he is unproven and mistakes are inevitable. But, I think D-lineman ,more so than any other position ,have a chance to make a big impact in their rookie year. If anyone has a hard time getting pumped about a defensive lineman that was picked #6 overall, then I don\'t know what it\'s going to take. I\'m not saying he is going to be Warren Sapp in his first year, but I expect him to have a major impact, this year. Having that one disruptive player in the middle causes so much choas that it opens up so many things for the rest of the D-lineman. The QB cannot step up in the pocket and the outside guys (Howard and Grant) will be meeting at the QB, like Swilling and Jackson use to. A lot of the credit went to Jackson and Swilling,deservedly so, but the guys in the middle (Wayne Maritn and Frank Warren) played a big part in that. If no one followed Kenny Smith\'s college career, you might want to read up on this guy. He\'s a talent. I know he\'s unproven in the NFL, but I think he is going to have a major impact for the Saints this year. It might be safe to say their unproven and let\'s wait and see, but my money is on us having a very, very, good defense. And for all you doubters: The Saints offense had a running back starting his first year. A WR (donte) starting his first year. A QB starting his second full year. A tightend (sloan) with his first year as a Saint. A rookie guard ( Bentley) and they didn\'t do to bad. Did they? [Edited on 7/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-07-2003, 06:53 PM	#25
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. 2001/2002 defensive turn arounds.... Carolina-- 31st / 2nd Atlanta--30th / 19th Indy--29th / 8th Tenn--25th / 10th [b:a686a6477c] The defenses moved up an average of 19 spots. Which would make us the number 6 defense in the league compared to last year. Yeah I know.......but I would have to say since four teams did it, this would be the norm and not the exception to the rule. [Edited on 8/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

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07-07-2003, 08:21 PM	#26
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Defensive Front Four. Four teams out of 32 makes for the norm? Or even better, 4 out of 16 below average? If those four teams moved up, what about the teams that moved down? Bottom line is that for every winner there is a loser so your line of reasoning is faulty. It is not the norm. I understand what you\'re saying though. If they can do it so can we... but the fact of the matter is that BECAUSE they did it DOES NOT mean that we will. It means it is possible, not probable. You follow?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

07-07-2003, 08:33 PM	#27
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. OK, work with me here. There are 31 teams, which means only roughly 15 teams can move up in defense. I only listed the ones that moved up dramatically, but we\'ll go with that. Which means there\'s a 26.6% chance that we can do the same. I know it really means nothing. I shouldn\'t have said it is the norm, but it\'s not uncommon for it to happen. Will we? I think there\'s a good chance, of course it\'s not a science.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 05:24 PM	#28
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. Out of the 4 teams you listed, the Falcons got Wade Phillips at D-coordinator, the Panthers got John Fox and drafted the #1 defensive player, the Colts got Dungy and installed the cover 2 and drafted almost an entire defensive draft including the NCAA sack leader. As for Tennessee, they overcame alot of the injury bug, drafted impact defensive players, and got banner seasons from some vets. We have kept Venturi. I\'d be surprised to see a top 10 finish, although I\'d be content just to not have to play shootout every game.

07-08-2003, 05:43 PM	#29
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. Out of the 4 teams you listed, the Falcons got Wade Phillips at D-coordinator, the Panthers got John Fox and drafted the #1 defensive player, the Colts got Dungy and installed the cover 2 and drafted almost an entire defensive draft including the NCAA sack leader. As for Tennessee, they overcame alot of the injury bug, drafted impact defensive players, and got banner seasons from some vets. We have kept Venturi. I\'d be surprised to see a top 10 finish, although I\'d be content just to not have to play shootout every game. I\'m sure coaching played a part in the rise of some of the defenses, I don\'t think it had as much of an impact as your post suggest. If you have enough talented players, you can play any defense you want and be sucessful. Players have often made a coach look like a genius one year and a chump the next. The Saints drafted what should be an impact player in Sullivan and Kenny Smtih is talented. Add those two in with Grant and Howard and that should be reason for optimism in any Saints fan. I have always beleived that it all starts upfront with a defense. Stop the run and you make a team one dimentional. While no one knows how it will work out, I think we have as much chance as any of the 4 teams that did it last year. [Edited on 8/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 06:37 PM	#30
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. I agree that the front 4 is the glue of any great defense, not just in stopping the run but pressuring a QB and forcing the pass. Next to all of the great defenses have had exceptional D lines. I also agree that ours has some great potential to be disruptive to a QB. The only aspect that concerns me about the foursome is play recognition. Last year Howard and Grant would get great jumps and watch the play go right past them in their bee line for the QB. Sullivan and Smith will be pretty green up front. I\'m sure once they know it\'s run or a pass it will be jailbreak to the ball. It\'s when tehy figure out the play call that scares me.